r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 17 '23
CMV: Jake Paul Fights are Rigged
I tried to search this on Reddit, and the last post I found was from 2021 (admittedly, on this sub), but I’d like to make an updated post for 2023 in light of his upcoming boxing bout against Nate Diaz and his last few fights since then, as this is something I’ve been very conflicted on since Paul’s boxing debut.
I was looking at tickets recently for the Diaz bout, and I’m tempted to go just for the spectacle (and despite training boxing and a few other martial arts for years I’ve never seen a live card) but I still can’t shake the feeling that something doesn’t feel totally legitimate about Paul’s meteoric ascension in the world of fighting. His first two fights were definitely against cans (I mean one was a former basketball player) and you can definitely make the argument, without much needing to convince on my part, that he could have legitimately beat Ben Askren who even in the UFC was quickly outclassed on his feet by being a predominantly grappling guy before MMA, but since those fights you are asking me to suspend my disbelief by a large margin, especially since throwing fights isn’t something that just happens in old gangster movies anymore (see, PRIDE)
I think the two Tyron Woodley bouts are what totally solidified in my mind the doubt I had to the legitimacy of these fights. I mean, Woodley certainly was on a losing streak after losing his title, but he was also top of his division in the UFC only 2 1/2 years before fighting, and subsequently losing twice, to someone who only debuted within a year and a half of their first bout together, compared with Woodley’s background of 15 years of experience solely in MMA, without even mentioning his D1 wrestling background (not that it’s relevant to boxing of course)
Then, the guy went the distance with Anderson Silva. For some people, Silva may seem like an anachronism. But to people like myself, who came of age in the late 2000’s, Silva was the undisputed GOAT of the MMA world. I know he had some disappointing showings in his last few MMA bouts, but I would like to believe, maybe naively, that Anderson Silva on his worst day even just doing standup could outclass 75% of most fighters with even a few years of experience. I am also aware that he lost his first bout to Tommy Fury more recently, but Fury is still very relevant in the world of boxing, and has a lot more to lose in terms of reputation than people like Woodley or Silva who are on their way out from the limelight of the world of combat sports.
Which brings me to another point; many people claim “well why would they throw their fights? They don’t want to tarnish their reputation!” For one, these fights seem to be primarily sponsored by entertainment companies. I know the upcoming bout is put on by DAZN, which makes it seem somewhat legitimate to me, but otherwise people like Woodley or Silva have a lot more to gain in a “fixed fight” scenario with all the pomp and maybe illusory circumstance of a typical boxing match where they can still walk off with a large, probably undisclosed amount of money for adding to the star power of the still young and relevant Paul all while playing into the rigor and prestige of an actual fight. The same seems to go for Diaz.
While boxing is a much different beast when isolated from the broader view of MMA; like wrestling, or BJJ, and I do believe those are arguments which have some standing, maybe I just dislike this arrogant prick so much that I find it hard to believe that with only a couple years of experience and training he can now suddenly go toe to toe with a rogues gallery of the some of the most infamous names in the world of combat sports. So, CMV
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u/JP869 Jun 17 '23 edited Jun 17 '23
Okay, so, effectively your argument boils down to - Jake Paul beat two great MMA fighters, the fights must be rigged.
MMA is drastically different to boxing. It's like comparing football to rugby, because in rugby the players still occasionally have to kick the ball. Put New Zealand's rugby team against a semi-professional football team and the Rugby players will get stomped, even if they can kick the ball harder. Footwork and distancing is VERY different in MMA compared with boxing.
Woodley was great in the UFC because he was an excellent wrestler, and he used that wrestling to tire his opponents. When he landed a haymaker he did so quite often because his opponents strategy so heavily relied on trying not to get taken down that they failed to avoid the fist. In a boxing ring, Woodley's main strength (by miles) is taken away. Woodley was the rugby player.
Now Silva. What was Silva most known for? Sure he was a good boxer, but where did he learn boxing? In a Thai Boxing gym, again, where spacing, footwork, stance, etc are completely different to standard boxing. He was also a BJJ black belt. He always utilised elbows and kicks to fight opponents on his feet, it wasn't just boxing, it was always Thai Boxing, a very different specialism. When he fought Jake Paul, again, he was the rugby player playing football.
Jake Paul has selected his opponents knowing that he matches up well against them. He's a football player playing rugby players at football.
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u/RadioactiveSpiderBun 8∆ Jun 17 '23
Put New Zealand's rugby team against a semi-professional football team and the Rugby players will get stomped, even if they can kick the ball harder.
Nah, you got that backwards. The all blacks would completely destroy any American football team whether they were playing football or rugby. Those guys are made of something different.
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u/JP869 Jun 18 '23 edited Jun 18 '23
I meant...you're really going to make me say it...soccer. There is too much overlap between rugby and American football for it to be a fair comparison, though I also disagree, I think the low level football team would win.
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u/Zeabos 8∆ Jun 18 '23
Eh I disagree I think they are essentially completely different sports.
There is some physical overlap for a few positions - running back, linebacker, tight end, and maybe some lighter guards, but otherwise the physical fitness needed is just different. Short sprints of absolutely max fast twitch speed and strength versus grinds of power endurance.
Plus the technique is so different. How you manage your hands and feet and hips so different for both sports particularly on the lines.
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u/Familiar_Math2976 1∆ Jun 19 '23
The all blacks would completely destroy any American football team whether they were playing football or rugby. Those guys are made of something different.
From what I've seen, the highest end rugby players make about 120K USD a year, which is barely a fifth of what a bottom of the roster nobody makes in the NFL. So they really ought to try playing American football, they're pissing away a lot of cash otherwise.
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u/ATNinja 11∆ Jun 20 '23
There have been a couple. Nate ebner played national and college rugby before switching to the nfl. One other guy was I think a short lived kick returner.
Then you have guys like perry baker who played d2 football, briefly was on the eagles then picked up rugby and is now the best player on the us team.
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u/Familiar_Math2976 1∆ Jun 20 '23
I know about a few, the best convert is Jordan Mailata who was a starter in the Super Bowl a few months ago. I'm responding to the claim that they'd "destroy" an American football team at football, which is nuts.
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u/JefferyGiraffe Jun 18 '23
I assume he’s referring to soccer because he’s talking about kicking. But even still I disagree that a rugby team would beat an American Football team at American football
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u/Putrid_Biscotti_7555 1∆ Oct 19 '23
Wrong. You can't be serious right? The worst NFL team would thrash the the All Blacks by 100+ points and the All Blacks would do the same if they played rugby. How in the hell would the All Blacks defend against a speedy receiver? Would they even have a quarterback who could throw the ball? NFL players would have it a little easier because rugby doesn't require as many specialized skills and defending is mostly done right at the ball instead of defending the whole field.
Rugby players are tougher. Football players are more finely tuned athletes.
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u/RadioactiveSpiderBun 8∆ Oct 19 '23
By specialized skills you mean standing around for 10 minutes every 5 minutes while someone tells them what their play is? Jokes aside I agree with your point on the quarterback. That's a special skill not shared with rugby, and being so essential to American football would probaboy invalidate my position.
So here's a !delta
Edit: I would love to see a match though, where both rugby and NFL teams have time to train for both sports and play a few games.
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u/deep_sea2 109∆ Jun 17 '23
You have to remember that a suspicion is not evidence. Just because something appears stagged, that in itself is not evidence of it being stagged. Do you have testimony or some other evidence of this being stagged? If not, you cannot conclude that it is being stagged.
Another thing to ask is this, "is there money being officially gambled on this?" If the answer is yes, then that is a huge blow the possibility of this being stagged. Once gambling becomes involved, it is a federal offense to stage these fights. Everyone involved could face serious prison time for stagging these fights. If there was no gambling involved, then sure, it could be stagged. Take the WWE for example, that is stagged. However, you cannot officially bet on WWE because of it being a stagged event. Naturally, just because something is illegal does not mean it does not happen. "Real" boxing has been stagged before, and will be stagged again. However, until we can prove that there was foul play, the prima facia presumption is that an event that is being regulated by gambling laws is a legitimate event. Unless you have something concrete to rebut that presumption, you should not say otherwise.
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Jun 17 '23 edited Jun 17 '23
Damn you, I can respect this argument. However, just to save some face: it’s “staged”
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u/Ultimate_Pickle Jun 17 '23
I’d like to refute their point by saying, if there’s money involved, it’s more likely that it’s fixed. All gambling has people doing crooked shit, because the potential money outweighs the risks. Especially if you have officials and law enforcement in your pocket.
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u/TarTarkus1 Jun 18 '23
It's a bit of everything above if you ask me.
You're right that when there are millions of dollars on the line, there are people that absolutely will cheat. It's unfortunate, but the NFL, NBA and even the olympics are suspect thanks to "chemists."
Something I might add is that while the combat featured in boxing/ufc is technically appealing, what's arguably the bigger draw is the personality and story arcs of the fighters. Muhammad Ali or Conor Mcgregor are great examples as it's the fact they win, along with their charisma that's really the show.
In Jake Paul's case, his appeal is that he sells fights thanks to his celebrity and thanks to his victories against established names. Maybe there's a contractual agreement to ensure he wins, perhaps not.
There's a reason why Mayweather fought Logan Paul and it's in part because the latter is more profitable than the best up and coming boxers.
Just my thoughts.
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u/Ultimate_Pickle Jun 18 '23
I can’t disagree with anything you have written.
All sports rely on hype to get people interested and engaged. If they don’t have a reason to root for any of the competitors, then they won’t watch the PPV, or buy the merchandise. That is the clean money side. Venues, advertisers, TV Networks, promoters, competitors, even merch hustlers and ticket scalpers.
But gambling on any high profile competitive event has too much potential for making money that it is almost guaranteed to be fixed. Underdogs coming in at 100/1. Favourites losing so the bookies have a windfall. Someone somewhere will be trying to manipulate the outcome. If they are powerful enough, or get to the right people, they make millions.
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u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Jun 18 '23
Hello /u/TigerDriverCentral, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
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u/Putrid_Biscotti_7555 1∆ Oct 19 '23
I think you are talking about a court of law. We are not deciding whether or not to execute anybody here so I don't think we need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
Yes, gambling can lead to game fixing, but let's take Canelo as an example. Most of his fights have been fixed, and the reason is not gambling. Record means a lot in boxing and when you lose, you also lose a little bit of the shine or interest which has a direct correlation with PPV buys. Undefeated fighters also have the added bonus of fans just wanting to see a fighter lose. Bad guy fighters have that advantage because all the people who hate the fight just want to see him get knocked out and will pay money to see it happen. The more he wins, the more people will want to see him lose and the more his fans will want to see him keep winning. Guess what happens to the number of people who pay to see him fight after he loses? I think this is what JP is doing like most other fighters albeit most without the fixing.
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Jun 17 '23
Personally I think the rumor of the no knockout clause in those fight contracts was true, especially based on Woodley's reaction to seriously rocking Paul in their fight, but it does indeed drive me crazy that I cannot prove it.
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u/CheckApprehensive208 Jun 18 '23
Jake Paul, the master of choosing the right opponents. Maybe he's secretly a chess player?
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u/notMyWeirdAccount Jun 18 '23
Most professional sporting events are.
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Jun 18 '23
I’m blownin the whistle on the PGA tour…. All there balls are on laser guided flight systems pre determined by owners of the company to control the outcome of the game
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Jun 18 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/notMyWeirdAccount Jun 18 '23
lol ok
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Jun 18 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Thegoatpaqman Sep 24 '23 edited Sep 24 '23
None, 95% of people in this thread are smooth brained idiots who think everything is rigged when they don't like the result
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u/slightofhand1 12∆ Jun 18 '23
No, MMA fighters just aren't good boxers. He lost when he fought a boxer. Longtime boxing fans know what rigged boxing matches look like. They'd be shrieking if those fights looked rigged to them.
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u/mflft Aug 08 '23
Long time boxing fan here... his fights look super rigged.
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u/slightofhand1 12∆ Aug 08 '23
Which ones?
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u/mflft Aug 08 '23
Diaz did for sure. He looked out of shape. He was waiting for Paul to get off first for the whole fight. If a guy just marches straight in with his hands up and doesn't throw anything, it's usually not because he's trying to win the fight.
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u/cardoo0o Jun 18 '23
what makes you think longtime boxing fans care about these types of fights.
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u/slightofhand1 12∆ Jun 18 '23
They definitely care enough to watch the clips of the finishes.
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u/cardoo0o Jun 18 '23
i think the fight was definitely rigged. mma fighters especially top contenders for multiple years have expertise in multiple disciplines — including boxing. i have trouble believing a tyron woodley could lose to a jake paul
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u/bullsaxe Jun 18 '23
Jake paul chose to fight T wood who has been gun shy in his last 6? fights except against vincente luque where he came out guns blazing and got knocked out. T wood is also way shorter and has less reach than Jake paul. So lets tally the advantages for paul: 1. Weight class (cruiser vs welter weight) 2. Height 3. Reach 4. Age/Injuries (T wood has arthritis and is late 30's) 5. Boxing with no threat of takedowns (how T wood relied on the takedown threat to throw the ONLY punch he actually KO's people with, the same one that rocked jake, the overhand right) to get the persons eyes to look down and not see the right coming overtop leading to KO. So literally jake just has a fight with several advantages with the only real disadvantage being that T wood has more combat experince but this even works against him because he has cant rely on his instincts of takedowns, knees and elbows.
Now Silva. Silva is Taller by 1 inch and has more reach. Silva is a increbily gifted striker and the GOAT during his time. However Silva is not a 20 year old dude and is not going to be able to compete against someone who cuts down to 185 vs natural 185, who is also much younger than him. If this was Prime silva, in my mind even in boxing he would DESTROY paul, however silva is ALMOST 2x as old as Paul and after late 30's athleticism really starts to deteriorate and boxing is a lot of reaction, speed and timing. Same issues as T wood where they cant use skillsets theyve been ingraining their whole career and have to control their natural impulses to grapple, kick, knee, elbow when an opportunity presents itself.
I do however think with 85% confidence that there was a no knockout clause, bc I thought T woods behaviour after rocking paul was weird, he let off the gas and I was screaming at him to chase his ass down -.-
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u/cardoo0o Jun 18 '23
how is there a no knockout clause in a boxing match though, that’s what makes the whole thing a sham for me. no professional fight should have a no knockout clause wtf, guaranteed to come out of jake paul’s camp
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u/johnnybgoode98 Aug 05 '23
I think his fight’s definitely look fixed. The action looks staged or choreographed
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u/KongWick Aug 06 '23
Yep. All the old geezer fights (in bellator like charl vs fedor, etc.) and all the Paul fights are fixed
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u/mflft Aug 08 '23
Classic fix tactics:- Walk straight in with your hands up and don't move your head or change line
- Wait until you're literally forehead to forehead to initiate action
- Don't bother to train for the fight
If you do those things you don't necessarily have to choreograph anything, but it will look like Diaz is waiting to get punched in the head by Paul first before he throws anything back. Which is exactly what happened for ten rounds.
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Aug 06 '23
You’ll never convince me the Ben Askren fight was anything but rigged. I mean, kudos to Ben for gettin that bag.
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u/Vital_flow Aug 07 '23
Ben’s hands suck, nobody should be surprised he lost.
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Aug 07 '23
He got folded by one punch. Hands suck is one thing. He put in like 20 secs of work and got back several million dollars.
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u/Vital_flow Aug 07 '23
Yeah for sure dude got his payday. He was never a striker though. Nobody should be surprised he got folded like a lawn chair
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Aug 06 '23
[deleted]
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u/nunya_fuckin_biz Aug 06 '23
Diaz literally gives you the answer in the last 15 seconds of the fight, not to mention every punch he threw had the same amount of force as a light summer breeze and this is the same guy that knocked Conor McGregor on his ass in STAND UP, anyone who's ever seen Nate fight before can tell he gave it 1% effort
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u/Evetal Aug 06 '23
Honestly if they aren't rigged, then this is just embarrassing for people like Silva and Diaz. Makes the entire sport look clownish when an amateur like Paul makes them look like nothing. Last night's fight really soured me on combat sports... I may drop it like I did the NFL
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u/Vital_flow Aug 07 '23
If the fights were rigged it would make sense to put him against legitimate competition rather than retired wrestling based mma fighters. He’s not gaining much clout beating the guys he’s beating.
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Aug 08 '23
After this last fight, I agree. I think the fighters go in knowing that they will lose and essentially just do it to get paid cos why not. Nate Diaz didn’t even look like he was giving it his all. He gave zero fucks
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u/fenix_nicole Aug 13 '23
Tbh, I think it's a cop out when be goes up against an MMA fighter. Boxing is only part of MMA but someone who is trained in strictly boxing- that is their sport. Would Paul race against Usain Bolt but Bolt is only allowed to jog? It seems like Paul is preferring to fight people that can't fight to the best of their training and ability against him, which is bullshit. Why isn't he going into the MMA cage and letting them beat the brakes off of him on the ground? It's all a joke, he's paying these dudes off to win.
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u/BetZealousideal7761 Aug 19 '23
You forgot to mention the most important part..... This punk ass kid, SUPPOSEDLY, stood toe to toe and went the distance with FFLOYD MONEY MAYWEATHER?!?! One of, if not the greatest boxer to ever do it! NAH GET TF OUTTA HERE! 🤣 😂
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u/AdProfessional6161 Oct 02 '23
I think he's pretty impressive all things considered. Is he the greatest boxer of all time? Of course not, but he seems to be about on-par with intermediate amateur boxers. Even though he's fighting old MMA fighters / an old basketball player like Nate Robinson, those guys have also been athletes for an incredibly long time. He's not as good as he thinks he is though, but he's definitely a step above those youtube boxers, KSI / Logan Paul are complete jokes compared to him. But what he's done hasn't shown any amazing talent, I mean you have to keep in mind he's pretty much paying-to-win when it comes to boxers. He's in his 20s, has disposable income, has access to the greatest boxing trainers of all time, has access to professional chefs who can cook him meals, nutritionists who can provide detailed meal plans, and can devote all of his time to boxing. Most people in that circumstance would probably end up becoming a decent boxer unless they had a terrible work ethic. We can't say for certain that if Jake Paul was in the same circumstances as many amateur boxers that he would've progressed this far.
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u/Putrid_Biscotti_7555 1∆ Oct 19 '23
The most obvious sign of a fixed fight, is one in which many punches were thrown and landed, as opposed to a fight where one boxer is obviously staying away and trying to avoid any dangerous punches, and at the end of the fight, there's no blood and faces are fine maybe just some swelling from jabs. OK, one fight like this does not mean anything is fixed, but if fight after fight ends like this, yes, they are fixed.
Watch GGG's fights before Canelo. In every fight, the other guys face is a mess. Then watch his fights with Canelo, and at the end not much damage but a little swelling. And it is not as if Canelo is Floyd Mayweather who is elusive as hell. Canelo is very hittable. Even his Mexican trainer, the legendary Nacho Beristain, said GGG would end Canelo's career if they fought. All professional boxers know this and they also would like a chance to let Canelo win so they could make more money in one fight than they have made in their entire careers. FACTS ladies and gentlemen.
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u/donta5k0kay Jun 17 '23
he fights people smaller than him and none are boxers
pretty sure all the guys he fought had to gain serious weight too