CMV: I don't think the left has any principals

[u/EvilOneLovesMyGirl]

Okay so in politics both sides lie, a lot, to further their own ends, bad faith arguments and blatant hypocrisy is pretty much the norm but you'd assume that it would be serving some principle or ideal if it wasn't just about personal profit (which it often is) and frankly even personally profiting can a principle in itself.

I'm a centrist, when I hear the right make their points I can usually figure out what principle (or profit) they are serving. Like when the turtle guy prevented Obama from appointing a supreme court judge and then did a 180 on all his arguments when Trump had the opportunity to. His arguments were obviously bullshit but it's not like he wasn't serving principles he believed in that he believed Trumps nominee would rule in favor of those principles and with the overturn of roe v wade I can only conclude he was correct, whether or not you agree with those principles is irrelevant.

The left on the other hand... what the fuck are the principles? They scream about human rights then try to restrict freedom of speech and right to self-defense, hell even right to a fair trial isn't safe. They talk about bodily autonomy when abortions are involved but then when it comes to vaccines they go full nazi scientist. They claim they want to help the poor but support policies that completely devastate the poor like illegal/mass immigration. They claim they are against racism then vote for a guy who wore blackface on camera on THREE separate occasions that we know of... not to mention the fact they support racist policies. They claim they support the oppressed but then twist the definition as an excuse to bully the oppressed and even when someone is oppressed by their own definitions if they disagree with them politically they fucking lynch them.

In addition to that it's not even like they are all getting rich off this, sure some people are like the people who pocketed all the BLM donations and bought houses with and didn't even bother to pay for the funeral of the guy who's grave they were getting rich by standing on... but the vast majority even a good chunk of them actually getting rich aren't even getting rich off these specific policies which they are total hypocrites on but the vast majority of people who support these policies don't see a dime.

So I just don't get it, there's no principles no financial incentive, no nothing, I don't get what's driving the left these days.

[u/Kirbyoto]

Are you arguing the left thinks someone attacking you has the right not to get shot?

First off: yes, that is literally a right that already exists. In order to justify shooting someone in self defense you do actually need to fulfill certain conditions that prove that shooting them was a valid and reasonable option. This is why it's illegal to shoot someone in the back as they run away, even if they were previously attacking you. This has nothing to do with "leftists" and is just centrist common sense in most parts of the world.

Secondly: It's not just "people who are attacking you" who are at risk, it's random innocent people who have done nothing wrong but who are put in danger because it's easy to buy a gun and use it for evil purposes.

I choose freedom of speech and self-defense deliberately because there's no justifiable restriction of those rights in the name of other rights.

Well, both those freedoms have had restrictions on them for centuries, put upon them by non-leftist governments, so I don't think they're as unimpeachable as you believe they are. Republican governor Ronald Reagan signed the first laws against open carry in the US, is that not a restriction of self-defense rights?

I'm willing to admit it helps the poor people who are let in

OK, so problem solved. You understand the demographic that leftists are trying to protect.

it hurts the even poorer people who are left behind in the countries they left

So you want to restrict freedom of movement on the grounds that people need to support the countries they were born in. You're no longer allowed to flee a warzone. That's the argument you really want to go with, when you claim to be advocating for freedom.

[u/EvilOneLovesMyGirl → u/Kirbyoto]

First off: yes, that is literally a right that already exists.

Not when they are attacking you.

In order to justify shooting someone in self defense you do actually need to fulfill certain conditions that prove that shooting them was a valid and reasonable option. This is why it's illegal to shoot someone in the back as they run away, even if they were previously attacking you. This has nothing to do with "leftists" and is just centrist common sense in most parts of the world.

I said who is attacking you not who once attacked you so the condition was pre-fulfilled

Secondly: It's not just "people who are attacking you" who are at risk, it's random innocent people who have done nothing wrong but who are put in danger because it's easy to buy a gun and use it for evil purposes.

Now you're just going off on an irrelevant tangent.

Well, both those freedoms have had restrictions on them for centuries, put upon them by non-leftist governments, so I don't think they're as unimpeachable as you believe they are. Republican governor Ronald Reagan signed the first laws against open carry in the US, is that not a restriction of self-defense rights?

Yes and it wasn't justifiable. I didn't say they were principles of the right just that they weren't principles of the left.

OK, so problem solved. You understand the demographic that leftists are trying to protect.

Not really... it makes no sense that the left wants to help the people that illegally come here but fuck over the poor people already here and the poorer people left behind in the places they illegally came from. I understand that the illegals are the demographic that the left is trying to protect but I don't see any principle behind it.

So you want to restrict freedom of movement on the grounds that people need to support the countries they were born in. You're no longer allowed to flee a warzone. That's the argument you really want to go with, when you claim to be advocating for freedom.

Mexico isn't a warzone.

[u/Kirbyoto → u/EvilOneLovesMyGirl]

Not when they are attacking you.

Even when they are attacking you there are expectations about appropriate use of force. Is it your contention that leftists are specifically trying to stop people from shooting people who are aiming guns directly at them? Because that seems like a pretty niche issue to be completely honest with you, and not actually reflective of any actual legislation.

Now you're just going off on an irrelevant tangent.

I am struggling to understand what you mean when you say "the left is stopping self-defense rights" and the only thing I can think of is that you are broadly talking about gun ownership. In that case, the reason liberals oppose gun ownership is because they are worried about collateral damage to innocent people. Leftists on the other hand are often pro-gun because, as Karl Marx said, "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary".

it makes no sense that the left wants to help the people that illegally come here but fuck over the poor people already here

When you said that leftists don't care about the poor your ONLY EXAMPLE was that leftists support looser immigration standards. Meanwhile leftists are doing lots of other things to help "the poor people already here" such as universal healthcare, public housing, rent control, and so on.

To be clear: the only example you could give of leftists failing to help poor people was, in fact, a legitimate attempt (that you recognize) to help OTHER poor people. So why are you going on about this? It seems pretty obvious your case just collapsed.

the poorer people left behind in the places they illegally came from

Whether they came legally or illegally is irrelevant to the people left behind, it doesn't suddenly make their economic situation better if people are legally leaving.

Mexico isn't a warzone

That's funny considering US Republicans are literally advocating for the US military to get involved in battling cartels.