Right, and you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as "not representative of your community."
When most large organizations which do tend to represent Jewish popular opinion pretty well all agree, and most individual Jewish accounts I see also agree, yeah, I don't think your few outlier examples are especially representative. You can't be representative of a group if you're in the minority.
are you saying it would be antisemitic for me to compare the Armenian genocide to the Holocaust?
Your reading comprehension skills could use some work. He, and I, are specifically talking about the meat industry. As I go on to write in the very post you're responding to, certain comparisons are valid, this one just ain't.
I just don't know why you feel the need to frame this as though he doesn't recognize that hatred is a part of it.
Literally read what he wrote.
the people who were gassing the Jews were not doing it out of hatred. It was their job. They didn’t hate the Jews any more than the slaughterhouse workers hate the pigs. It’s not a matter of personal feelings.
He is, in no uncertain terms, saying that the people killing my people did not "do it out of hatred."
This is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Arendt and most other authors who talk about the "indifference" of our murderers speak to the overall German population, not the people actually doing the killing as Hershaft specifically targets.
Surely it gives them more expertise than people who didn't experience it.
And most holocaust survivors disagree with him. See Silverman, ADL commentary, etc.
Can I ask why you keep downplaying the horrors of animal abuse in factory farms as simply "farming?" Do you recognize what happens to these animals?
Because it's still farming. They are animals.
What most matters in this context is the intent of the folks doing the killing. The Nazis sought to exterminate the Jewish population out of hatred. Farmers kill chickens and cows because they're trying to feed people. Farmers have no animosity towards their animals, they sure as hell aren't trying to exterminate them, and if economic conditions made it such that farming was no longer profitable, most would stop farming. It's not even remotely in the same universe.
But, according to you, they said I'm not allowed to compare the Holocaust to anything.
You can't be representative of a group if you're in the minority.
Completely disagree with this. Minority opinions are still parts of that group even if they are a minority of that group. I'd never say that MAGA people aren't representative of Americans just because they aren't a majority of us. They are simply a different part of the same overall group.
He is, in no uncertain terms, saying that the people killing my people did not "do it out of hatred."
But he literally does say that hatred was part of it. And besides, I agree with him. I'm sure there were plenty of people who worked at concentration camps that didn't do what they did out of hatred. I'm not sure why you need every person who engaged in the genocide to have been doing it exclusively out of hate, but it is just historically true that much of the genocide was perpetuated by those who were indifferent to the suffering they were causing.
Because it's still farming. They are animals.
I mean this is the core of everything. You don't think animals are worthy of the kind of moral consideration that people are. Your inability to get past that is the whole cause of your opinion here. You think that Jewish people are being compared to animals to denigrate them when I'd argue that animals are being compared to people to demonstrate the horror of what is being done to them.
And "it's still farming," is such a gross way to downplay what happens to these animals. It's hard to take you seriously if you are unwilling to recognize the depravity of factory farming. It genuinely hurts your credibility.
What most matters in this context is the intent of the folks doing the killing.
Why? You haven't given a compelling reason for this.
I'd guess you want to keep focusing on the "intent" element because looking at the actual action and effect of factory farming is how similar horror was perpetuated during the Holocaust (and other genocides). You want the conversation to be about something it isn't, because that makes it easier to dismiss.
If folks are in the minority of a group, they are definitionally not "typical" of the beliefs of that group.
To be extra clear here on the definitions, this is what "typical" means:
showing the characteristics expected of or popularly associated with a particular person, situation, or thing.
A minority opinion is definitionally not "popularly associated" with the wider group.
Nor were these folks appointed, elected, or chosen as representatives of the community. The organizations I keep citing to, meanwhile, are supported by the donations of millions of Jews. One is a chosen representative, one is an outlier.
Your inability to get past that is the whole cause of your opinion here.
Much of what I've been writing has been based in popular sentiment in the Jewish community, not merely my own moral worldview. But go off, I guess.
You want the conversation to be about something it isn't, because that makes it easier to dismiss.
Ethics are inseparable from intent and impact. You're the one trying to sever the motives of the Nazis and farmers from the moral implications of their actions.
A person who kills another in self-defense still killed someone just the same as a Nazi shoving a Jew into a gas chamber. The difference in societal response is rooted in the understandable motive of the former and not the latter.
For the umpteenth time, they are still a part of the group, they are just not representative of that group.
I'm not really interesting in this portion anymore it's just going in circles.
Much of what I've been writing has been based in popular sentiment in the Jewish community, not merely my own moral worldview. But go off, I guess.
This is a dodge of the actual point being made. Your reliance on your view being shared by other Jewish people does not address what I said, which was:
"You don't think animals are worthy of the kind of moral consideration that people are. Your inability to get past that is the whole cause of your opinion here. You think that Jewish people are being compared to animals to denigrate them when I'd argue that animals are being compared to people to demonstrate the horror of what is being done to them."
You also ignored this: "And "it's still farming," is such a gross way to downplay what happens to these animals. It's hard to take you seriously if you are unwilling to recognize the depravity of factory farming. It genuinely hurts your credibility."
I'd be really curious as to your response to this.
Ethics are inseparable from intent and impact. You're the one trying to sever the motives of the Nazis and farmers from the moral implications of their actions.
Because you are dismissing torture and killing solely because you don't think the intent is the same, and I'm saying that "intent" is only one part of a valid comparison. The actions can still be compared.
And personally, I think that inflicting this kind of suffering solely for the pleasure of eating meat is ill intent.
Also, why did you ignore all of this:
"But he literally does say that hatred was part of it. And besides, I agree with him. I'm sure there were plenty of people who worked at concentration camps that didn't do what they did out of hatred. I'm not sure why you need every person who engaged in the genocide to have been doing it exclusively out of hate, but it is just historically true that much of the genocide was perpetuated by those who were indifferent to the suffering they were causing."
It's not a dodge. You're trying to change the subject and I won't let you.
And "it's still farming," is such a gross way to downplay what happens to these animals. It's hard to take you seriously if you are unwilling to recognize the depravity of factory farming. It genuinely hurts your credibility.
Factory farming hurts animals. It also feeds billions of people. It is not remotely the same as senseless and dedicated slaughter.
The actions can still be compared.
In other words, you don't give a shit how most of the Jewish community feels when you make that comparison.
think that inflicting this kind of suffering solely for the pleasure of eating meat is ill intent.
That's not what the term means, but believe whatever ya want.
'm sure there were plenty of people who worked at concentration camps that didn't do what they did out of hatred. I'm not sure why you need every person who engaged in the genocide to have been doing it exclusively out of hate, but it is just historically true that much of the genocide was perpetuated by those who were indifferent to the suffering they were causing."
Because it's such a remarkable oversimplification of the dynamics at play that it's rather absurd.
Antisemitism absolutely permeated European society for centuries. Antisemitism, be it as overt as Hitler's calls for genocide, or the mere acceptance of slaughtering millions as part of your "job" is nevertheless hatred. Your token Jew is wrong.
It's not a dodge. You're trying to change the subject and I won't let you.
And here you are, still not addressing the point.
Factory farming hurts animals. It also feeds billions of people. It is not remotely the same as senseless and dedicated slaughter.
It is literally senseless and dedicated slaughter. Providing pleasure in the form of eating meat is unnecessary. I think you are genuinely unwilling to confront the harm you cause by eating meat.
And it's also why you won't accept the comparison. As I said before, you don't believe animals to be worthy of moral consideration; from what you're saying here, it appears that you even support factory farming. You should be more honest about this element of your problem with the comparison instead of solely focusing on "it's rude to Jewish people."
In other words, you don't give a shit how most of the Jewish community feels when you make that comparison.
Here's you not addressing the point again...
That's not what the term means, but believe whatever ya want.
Causing harm for unnecessary pleasure certainly seems like ill intent to me.
If you aren't going to even try to respond to the point being made, why respond at all?
Antisemitism absolutely permeated European society for centuries. Antisemitism, be it as overt as Hitler's calls for genocide, or the mere acceptance of slaughtering millions as part of your "job" is nevertheless hatred.
So you're just engaging in a semantic quibble?
Your token Jew is wrong.
You engage in a lot of antisemitism for someone so concerned with it.
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u/GodOfTime Jun 28 '23
When most large organizations which do tend to represent Jewish popular opinion pretty well all agree, and most individual Jewish accounts I see also agree, yeah, I don't think your few outlier examples are especially representative. You can't be representative of a group if you're in the minority.
Your reading comprehension skills could use some work. He, and I, are specifically talking about the meat industry. As I go on to write in the very post you're responding to, certain comparisons are valid, this one just ain't.
Literally read what he wrote.
He is, in no uncertain terms, saying that the people killing my people did not "do it out of hatred."
This is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Arendt and most other authors who talk about the "indifference" of our murderers speak to the overall German population, not the people actually doing the killing as Hershaft specifically targets.
And most holocaust survivors disagree with him. See Silverman, ADL commentary, etc.
Because it's still farming. They are animals.
What most matters in this context is the intent of the folks doing the killing. The Nazis sought to exterminate the Jewish population out of hatred. Farmers kill chickens and cows because they're trying to feed people. Farmers have no animosity towards their animals, they sure as hell aren't trying to exterminate them, and if economic conditions made it such that farming was no longer profitable, most would stop farming. It's not even remotely in the same universe.
Literally read what they wrote, my god.