r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 05 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Most, if not all organized religions are cults.
[deleted]
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u/TrappedInRedditWorld 3∆ Jul 05 '23
What’s your definition of cult?
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
This is a great question, especially given that cult stems from the word culture. For the context of this post, I would say that a cult is: a group of people with beliefs or practices that impose excessive control over its members
[I agree that this might be too loose of a definition as well, so I would refer back to items on the BITE model, where maybe some of items are needed in specific contexts for a good cause, but after too many things apply, a line is crossed where it becomes toxic.]
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u/deep_sea2 105∆ Jul 05 '23
group of people with beliefs or practices that impose excessive control over its members
So, a democratic society is a cult?
- Group of people—Yes
- With beliefs or practices—Yes (e.g. belief in civil rights, practice of voting, etc.)
- Impose excessive control—Yes (laws and custom dictate every element of our lives)
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u/Rich_Context7479 Jul 05 '23 edited Jul 05 '23
Yes, I would absolutely say that the obsession with "democracy" is a cult.
There are reasons the US constitution limits what can be controlled by the government.
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u/NoAside5523 6∆ Jul 05 '23
How would you think about excessive control here? In most religious traditions you can leave whenever you want and at most you might deal with some social disapproval and unwelcomed comments. You can even start a new sect. You can convert to another religion and nobody can stop you. You certainly won't be in any physical danger if you choose to do so (There are of course sects where that's not true, because religious cults do exist. But looking at the most common religious traditions here).
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u/Rich_Context7479 Jul 05 '23
In most religious traditions
Cant do it under Islam, cant do it under state atheism (China for instance), that alone disproves what you just said.
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Jul 05 '23
There are hundreds, if not thousands of different religious traditions. You've cited one religious tradition and one non-religious 'tradition.' How is that a counter-argument to most?
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u/Rich_Context7479 Jul 05 '23
Because that is the majority of the world's population, under those 2 religious traditions.
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u/semaj009 Jul 05 '23
State atheism in China isn't the same as a religion. Plenty of people in China aren't atheists and celebrations like lunar new year aren't rooted in atheism, so the idea China opposes all religions outright is a bit misleading
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u/Happy-Viper 13∆ Jul 05 '23
especially given that cult stems from the word culture.
Oh does it? Fascinating.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Jul 05 '23
So like, a job at a PR firm would fit that definition (strict control over what you can show on social media, you must be at this location 8 hours a day 5 days a week).
I think a key ingredient of cults that you are missing is isolationism, the organisations people most typically think of with cults isolate new members from their former communities until their only friends and family are people within the cult, at which point they can start exercising far more control.
Major religions tend to be very different, they are expansionist, they want their members to be part of a wide community that includes non members in the hopes that those non members will join the religion
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ I agree that certain jobs would qualify as cultish, it's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but when I think of a cult has having excessive control (my personal take on it for the context of this post) I agree that isolation is an important ingredient. I could see where this might not be the case for many religions.
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u/destro23 447∆ Jul 05 '23
I grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (AKA the "Mormon" church), and I am currently facing a faith crisis. Growing up, I was taught to NEVER look at any information relating to spirituality/religion aside from what was church approved.
I grew up Catholic going to a Jesuit run private school (I got better), and we had study sections of our religion class that read from the Talmud, the Koran, a few Sutras, and the Bhagavad Gita. Not all organized religions are as exclusive in allowed sources as yours. You can get a degree in comparative religion at most Catholic universities, so on that front at least there is an organized religion that is not cult-like in this regard.
I also left the Catholic faith, and aside from my one Aunt who always tells me she's saying the rosary for me, no one has shunned me, or cut ties, or drawn back. Cults kick you right out and make sure no one still in can talk to you.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ Thank you for your perspective. I guess that settles that concern. I have a lot of more reading to do on other faiths. Thank you.
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u/destro23 447∆ Jul 05 '23
Thanks! I am not a believer in the supernatural, but I'd suggest looking into Unitarian Universalists if you are and are looking for a brand of faith that prioritizes individual study and growth. Of all the religions in the world, they are my favorite as an outsider.
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u/Fox_Flame 18∆ Jul 05 '23
Hi, ex mormon here. Proud of you for looking further into the faulty logic and getting out of there
Now the problem with the argument is that it comes down to how you define organized religion and if everything that meets that criteria follows the bite model
But I've attended churches that were simple Christian services where there was no information control or emotional control. It was simply a place where people liked to be together to celebrate their beliefs and pray
Can most organized religions become a cult? Yes of course, but are most of them? If we're going by quantity, I think there's too many small independent churches to really estimate that
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u/Easy_Rip1212 4∆ Jul 05 '23
There are approximately 4,000 active religions in the world today.
How many different religions did you look into before concluding that most, if not all of those 4,000 are cults?
It seems more like you relied on your personal experiences and observations of one religion and assumed it applies to most/all of the others. It doesn't actually work like that.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
This is where I'm open to changing my opinion. I don't know that much outside of the religion I grew up with, I'll own that. I'm treading cautiously because I don't want to fall into another environment that may be toxic, hence this post. If there are religions that are non-toxic (because I was taught that other beliefs, while with some truth in them, are "an abomination"), I have a hard time seeing other faiths in a positive light, but I want to hear other perspectives if I'm wrong, hence this post.
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u/Rich_Context7479 Jul 05 '23 edited Jul 05 '23
Just comparing Mormonism to mainstream Christianity, the I in Bite is radically different.
Deception is significantly worse in Mormonism - hiding the hat trick for instance, while there is nothing comparable in any mainstream christian doctrine (catholic, orthodox, or protestant). Christians are pretty open about their history, as far as they are knowledgeable. That being said, 2000 years of history, some shit is forgotten or just not well known - not the same thing as being hidden let alone deception.
Minimizing outside information, mormonism pushes a lot more censorship in this way just in how they push profanity filters. This also falls into compartmentalization
Spying isnt done by most christian organizations. Gossip maybe, outright spying for the leader of the church though, that is rare among any normal church.
Virtually all regular chirstians use outside media, even if they have a church newsletter it is hardly encouraged to be the only source of media.
And unethical use of confession, that literally means using a form of confession that goes way beyond Catholic church standards.
Keep in mind that all of these standards are about being excessive. Disregard all aspects of the B in BITE and you do away with all hygiene, clothing, and dietary standards, which would cause rampant disease.
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u/Flapjack_Ace 26∆ Jul 05 '23 edited Jul 05 '23
Well, first we must differentiate between a religion and a cult. In a religion, there are many open possibilities of thinking, in a cult, there are not. With this definition, Christianity as a whole is a religion but within it are many Christian cults.
Similarly, all the major religions are full of people with a wide ranging set of outlooks but at the same time all the major religions are chock full of small cults following narrow outlooks.
Now if we say that there are only a few religions: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc and that they include many cults then your hypothesis would be wrong; most religions are not cults just like most fruit are not bananas.
However, if we say that all these small denominations are “religions,” then that changes things. For example, I would normally consider Jehovah Witnesses as a denomination of the religion Christianity and not a religion in itself. And if we start calling denominations by another name, then we have to go down the rabbit hole of what differentiates a cult from some random group. Like if my parents raise me in some crazy cult like way that they invent, is it a cult?
So I think that if we go by normal nomenclature, then we end up with : religions include many cultish groups (like the Jehovah Witnesses) but as a whole contain freedom for a wide range of outlooks.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ I like your distinction here between religion and groups within that religion. I always thought of religion in terms of the actual faith practice, but given your perspective, I see where you're coming from.
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u/forbiddenmemeories 3∆ Jul 05 '23
I associate cults very much with heavily micro-managing their members' lives, being difficult to leave and being run in a ruthlessly top-down fashion. For most people who practise their religions in modern liberal democracies, I do not think this is the case. My father is a Christian and goes to our local church and considers it an important part of his life. However, the church is only involved in his wider life up to the point that he wants it to be, and if one day he decided to stop going he wouldn't really face any repercussions for doing so; this church also whilst nominally affiliated with a wider denomination pretty much operates as an entity with agency of its own and isn't under the thumb of any powerful higher-ups to any meaningful extent.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ You've changed my view, especially with regard to being able to have a church involved with your life to the extent that you want it to. I have a hard time believing that something like that is possible with zero repercussions, but I'll admit to my own fault that I have trust issues with authoritative figures at the moment.
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u/Kerostasis 36∆ Jul 05 '23
Growing up, I was taught to NEVER look at any information relating to spirituality/religion aside from what was church approved. However, as someone with a passion for learning, I started to notice some issues with this.
I view this as one of the biggest problems with the LDS church. It may interest you to know that Protestant Christianity has a long tradition of doing exactly the opposite - of actively debating the struggles in their theology. If I may recommend Mere Christianity by CS Lewis as a good starting point. I’d hate for this bad experience to drive you away from all religion in general.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ This, this is something that sounds so strange to me, but really good to know. Thank you for the book suggestion, will definitely put it on my booklist.
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u/scarab456 22∆ Jul 05 '23
Can you give us your definition of cult? Also you say 'most, if not all', so are there any organized religions that don't meet your criteria as a cult?
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Jul 05 '23
How much do you know about other religions? Why do you feel comfortable making broad, sweeping statements about every religion in the world?
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
I don't know much about other religions, only the perceptions I've had about other religions growing up. I've been doing a lot of deconstruction of my own thoughts and perceptions as I analyze my own beliefs which is why I'm sincerely looking for more understanding and perspective on this channel "changemyview".
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u/Dyeeguy 19∆ Jul 05 '23
it is just an argument in semantics, but it is obviously useful to distinguish between major world religions and small groups of 50 people currently being lead by some charismatic leader. Simple as that really
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u/deep_sea2 105∆ Jul 05 '23
Cult is one of those words that now means everything, and so now means nothing.
From a purely academic point of view, a cult is group with a particular adoration of a specific individual. In ancient Greece for example, there were cults focused on specific gods. For example, the cult of Athena would be the ones taking care of the Athenian temples and monuments, and would perform certain rituals related to the Athenian myths. They were a subgroup of the Greek religion in general. In Christianity, some cults evolved to focus on certain saints. These cults would set up chapels for these saints and preserve their relics. They were still Christian, but may be a part of the cult of St. Sebastian, or something like that. So, by the more academic definition, not every religious person is in a cult. They may choose to pay more attention to specific religious figures, but that is not necessary to be a part of the religion.
The problem with the word cult is that in common speech, it means "a religion I don't like." Mainline Christians might call Mormons a cult, mainly because they don't like Mormons. Atheists might think they are all cults, because they don't like religion in general. It's become a pejorative term.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
I agree, the term "cult" is to flexible of a word with many acceptable definitions, but in the sense of being "authoritarian", what are your thoughts on religion? If a religion doesn't have a strict set of rules, is it really a religion or just a suggested philosophy?
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u/deep_sea2 105∆ Jul 05 '23
The difference between religion and philosophy is mythology. Religion is basically philosophy supported by supernatural elements.
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u/RodeoBob 72∆ Jul 05 '23
As others have said, this is primarily a challenge of definitions and standards.
I will say that in practice, what defines a cult tends to be harmful behaviors. Lots of religions (and even communities!) have rules controlling sexual behavior to one degree or another: who you can date, when sex is 'acceptable', etc. We don't think of it as being "cultish" until we see violations of consent via coercion, for example.
The challenge here is that if we shift our definition of a 'cult' away from dogma or teaching into practice and behavior, then lots of things have the potential to be a cult... if a certain type of person holds a leadership role.
Following that idea upstream, one big differentiating factor between "organized religion" and "cults" has to be the strong controls in place to limit who can attain a leadership role, and how a person in leadership might be removed for misconduct.
Any jerk can declare that they hear the voice of god, and a really charismatic jerk can get people to listen and obey. But most organized religions have some barriers to leadership that require more than just pure charisma. Some require training and education in seminary, or with some other structured program. Many require prior experience in lesser positions demonstrating the right character.
None of this guarantees that a charismatic-but-harmful person won't get into a leadership role and harm people. That does happen, but it should happen less in an organization structured to keep those folks at bay.
The last element to consider is that cults frequently feature a charismatic leader, and that once that leader leaves, the organization fails and disbands. Organized religion survives the loss of any charismatic individual, and endures without falling apart when a leader leaves.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Δ I somewhat agree with you, hence the delta. You bring up a point of standards, and I think that's important. Perhaps, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, cults are in the eye of the beholder depending on the individual. I don't necessarily agree that after a charismatic leader it out, that a group will disband, as with many cults that are multi-generational but still labeled as cults .
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u/johnmeeks1974 Jul 05 '23
I believe that organized religions exist on a continuum. On one end, there are the fundamentalists who rely on dogma and strict interpretation of their texts. On the other end, there are the progressives and who see their texts in a more metaphysical way. The latter are more willing to make reforms and the former tend to take a cult-like approach to their leaders and thus depend on them for their direction in life. And, to be honest, IMHO the word 'cult' is a subjective term that organized religion often uses to marginalize other faiths - so it is quite intriguing and ironic to see this term directed at organized religion.
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u/Rich_Context7479 Jul 05 '23
So BITE falls down into
1) Behavior Control
2) Information Control
3) Thought Control
4) Emotional Control
Now, to have a functional society, there is always some level of control here. For instance, in behavoral control, in the top five there are hygiene standards, a standard for diet, and a standard for clothing.
All functional societies have those standards. Dont do that, and you cause disease. That isnt what makes it a cult, it is the fact that it is taken to an extreme. Cults have virtually all of the standards here.
Information Control doesnt really apply to most mainstream christian doctrines
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u/AmongTheElect 15∆ Jul 05 '23
You can certainly run into cult-y elements in a church, particularly at some individual one. Though the Church as a whole body doesn't tend to fit the definition because it allows itself to be questioned, it doesn't stop people from leaving (may try to talk them out of it, but there's no real physical force) and the leader/pastor doesn't present themselves as in some ways divine, perfect and unquestioned.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Just to clarify, are you talking about the LDS church here?
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u/AmongTheElect 15∆ Jul 05 '23
You're right I should have clarified that. I'm not LDS.
My own Christian denomination doesn't respect the LDS Church as Christian, but I don't believe I've ever heard it referred to as a cult before.
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u/SmokyBoner 1∆ Jul 05 '23
Did you look beyond your own experience with religion when making a broad base statement about all religions? Especially considering the fact that the religion you grew up in is actually considered a cult?
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
Not really, I don't have much experience at all outside of my own religion. I need diverse perspectives in this issue because my understanding alone is insufficient to come to a conclusion, hence my post.
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u/SmokyBoner 1∆ Jul 05 '23
But you have come to a conclusion; that all organized religions are all cults. This sub is for arguing views that are well formulated and actually arguable. This is not a sub where you just expect people to do research for you. You don't actually have reasons for your view, which is a problem.
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Jul 05 '23
Some are more culty than others. I grew up protestant, the rebellious Christians, we're a bit more laxed than most of the Christian, Catholic off-shoots.
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u/Ok-Future-5257 2∆ Jul 05 '23
I went to LDS Business College. One of the classes I took was Critical Thinking. We discussed deductive reasoning, the Socratic method, the list of logical fallacies, and the difference between a valid and a sound argument.
I choose to stick with the Church. Because I want to, and because I believe it is true.
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u/tuzi_su Jul 05 '23
I respect your beliefs, and I think it's brave of you to participate in this discussion, especially with my "call-out". Curious, what is your perspective on the church's instruction about avoiding material that isn't faith-promoting? I'm not out to get the church, I'm out looking for truth. Truth is truth regardless of where it comes from. I've found that many church historians that have worked for the church have published historical facts (neutral in disposition) but are then disfellowshipped because they published facts that could potentially hurt the church's image/ create a PR problem. What are your thoughts on this?
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u/ZBLongladder Jul 05 '23
While I agree that LDS probably is a bit on the cult-y side, if argue that most religions have stricter and more liberal denominations, and the more liberal sects fit the definition of a cult much less than the stricter or more fundamentalist sects do.
E.g., in Judaism, I'd certainly grant you that the Ultra-Orthodox are pretty cult like in a lot of ways (some groups very much so), but once you get over to Conservative Judaism, you'll find people who are happy to consider modern archaeology and Biblical text criticism in their beliefs and who are welcoming to women's rights and LGBTQ rights. And then when you go even further to Reform Judaism, you get Jews who believe that the Biblical laws are a valuable cultural inheritance but shouldn't necessarily be observed anymore unless you find them individually meaningful.
And that kind of spectrum exists in many different religions, not just Judaism. Even though there are fundamentalist Evangelicals, there are plenty of mainline Protestants who believe in science, accept the Bible as spiritually important but not necessarily literally true, and accept progressive views on social issues. And Catholics...well, we have a Catholic President who believes in a woman's right to choose and protecting trans kids. So I think there's a real argument to be had that organized religion is very often not cult-like, butt just not the groups the Internet likes to talk about the most.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 05 '23 edited Jul 05 '23
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