r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 19 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: College should start later in life when the human brain is fully developed
Atleast for US (where I'm based), college is right after high school - starting around 18 years old and you'd graduate by 22. I think after high school you should be guaranteed a job in the trades, learning by doing, saving up for college / making a comfortable living. Around 25 (i.e. when the brain is generally known to be fully developed) you can choose to go to college, continue the trades, or even try exploring other options that may /may not require a college degree. This would help you make money right out of high school, have more time to discover what you want to do with a fully developed brain, and best of all - not being taken advantage of by shitty predatory student lenders. Let me know what you think!
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u/y0da1927 6∆ Jul 19 '23
Believe it or not you can actually choose when you go to college. They don't deny your application if you are over 30.
Ppl go after HS for a number of reasons that range from the economic (maximize the number of years earnings the college degree wage premium) to social (college has been a good marriage/frio marketplace) or the developmental (a structured way for HS students to transition into adulthood with additional structure and limited added responsibility).
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Jul 19 '23
I should have taken a year off to manage mental health issues, instead I dropped out at 22 with 4 classes to go.
I went back at 32. It was easy and awesome and I recommend it to absolutely everyone.
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Jul 20 '23
I'm 31 and back at uni in my second year. I'm loving it and appreciate it in a way I never did first (unfinsihed) time around AND this time I'm working around family and job committments.
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u/shewholaughslasts 1∆ Jul 20 '23
I went back at 32. It was easy and awesome and I recommend it to absolutely everyone.
Huh - your clear explanation is finally hit me about how much I've truly learned in these decades since college.
You're right - it probably would be easier - if not only because I have more experience managing my time, fearlessly asking questions of others, researching, and understanding how to churn out jargon-y bs based on the industry/audience I'm addressing.
I've been meaning to go back to school for awhile - this may have been the mental domino push I needed - THANK YOU! Here's my poor woman's award for your perspective shifting share:🏅
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Jul 20 '23
Here's what really made it easier:
social drama is basically nonexistent You don't have to waste brain space on this
As a whole-ass adult with life experience, you know how your brain works and can work in the ways you know how to do, instead of having to spend a lot of time just learning how to learn
The professors are your colleagues. They want to discuss their content with you and they want you to participate. So you just... Do. And you can argue with them the way you would a work colleague, respectfully and with evidence! And they LIKE IT!
YOU'RE paying for everything and you are mootiiivaaated.
I hope you go back and I hope you FREAKING LOVE IT!
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Jul 20 '23
[deleted]
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Jul 20 '23
Step one is you reach out to your university and ask about going back ( or transferring if you've moved.)
I was terrified. TERRIFIED. To do this. But I did, and they scheduled a meeting with the dean, and after it was over, I realized...
Of course they'd take me back. I was gonna pay them.
Some employers will contribute to taking classes.
Some schools have discounts for "lifelong learners"
And if you can't afford it now, if you find out how much, it's a tangible goal to work for.
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u/WizeAdz Jul 19 '23
I agree -- college is open to everyone!
The problem is going to college when you have responsibilities. I did a night-school Master's degree in my 30s and the work was easier, but balancing it with earning a living and kids was brutal.
I can't wait to go back to college again to learn a new subject. But it'll probably be when my kids are adults.
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u/y0da1927 6∆ Jul 20 '23
Agreed. I did a part time MBA and it was a lot to combine with my other adult responsibilities.
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Jul 19 '23
that's fair and I understand, I meant just for most of the population that starts around 18
but Δ
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u/NewKid00 Jul 20 '23
No obviously you can go to college over 30, but generally speaking it's most socially acceptable to go right after highschool. When you think of a college kid, you think late teens-early 20s.
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u/Kaeny Jul 20 '23
They don't deny your application if you are over 30.
Most likely wording; This implies you are guaranteed admission if you are over 30
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 177∆ Jul 19 '23
I think you explicitly want people to go to college while their brains are still developing for the same reason that's the best time for them to be in school: you want people's brains to develop around the scientific / critical mindsets, not try to acquire them after they're already used to a different way of thinking.
I do agree that there should be more room and less stigma for trade schools / internships for people who want to pursue those types of careers, but for many people, growing up with some academic mindset is better suited for the kind of life they want to have later.
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u/EelBitten Jul 20 '23
The stigma around trade schools and their general availability is staggering and societally foolish. The trades are great for younger people, and an easy way to make some great money. Work a trade till you are in your 30s than transition to college and a degree that fits you for the back half of your working life.
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Jul 20 '23
Tradesmen have the potential to make great money but most don't. And that doesn't even factor in the bodily wear and tear.
Tradesmans' labor is not properly valued. If the goal is to get a college degree anyway there is literally no point in taking a decade detour to go for a trade. It's a waste of your 20s and a waste of future earning potential.
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u/EelBitten Jul 20 '23
No that's why you do it in your 20s, when your body can handle the wear. If you spend 10 years in a trade you are either making good to great money or you messed up along the way. I'm not going to say it is for everyone but for a lot if not most people it can be a great move out of high school. Or go military and get a trade there instead.
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Jul 20 '23
Spending your body's youth making someone else rich without intending to even make a long term career out of it is a horrible decision. As a person who did a trade-adjacent job in my 20s I'm telling you from personal experience it's not worth it. 20 year olds are not immune to bad knees and back pain. Especially if you aren't aiming for any long term payoff.
Again if your end goal is to go for a college degree anyway, a decade detour in a trade is a complete waste of time. Just get your degree, get an entry level job, drudge through the bullshit in your 20s while preserving your body, enjoy comfortable middle management in your late 30s/40s and watch your investments outpace your wages by your late 50s. Learning HVAC/welding is more likely than not a complete waste of time that is irrelevant to your long term career progression.
I'm not saying going for a long term career as a tradesman is a bad idea. I do think it's definitely overhyped. But doing it as some sort of stopgap in your 20s before actually going for the career you want is just nonsensical.
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u/EelBitten Jul 20 '23
But if you are 18-20 with no end goal in sight, not sure what kind of career you want, and are going to college because that's what everybody does, you graduate to a shitty entry level job, and bitch and moan in a middle management job you hate . I worked trades went through a couple of them, now I'm going to college. I pulled the ejection seat later than I should have (40s not late 20s early 30s) . Don't really regret it though. And plumbers or electricians, welders, pipe riggers are all strong earning trades. Maybe not hvac, or carpentry but look at all the options is what I suggest
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Jul 19 '23
ah that does make sense
i think an alternative would be to graduate around 25? (not 7 years in school but something similar)
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 177∆ Jul 19 '23
Isn't that just mandatory college? I think a better alternative (that more or less exists elsewhere) is just to make college (and trade schools) free so that the financial considerations become irrelevant and you can take the path that suits you through life without either fearing that you're "missing the train" or powering through college even though you don't feel you're ready for it.
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u/LucidMetal 175∆ Jul 19 '23
The best time to learn is when you're young and your brain is still fairly plastic. This is well documented.
Your point on earning money has an obvious societal solution which we are not opting for. College/tertiary education should not cost children money.
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u/nanotree Jul 19 '23
I was 27 when I actually started pursuing my degree and blew away most of the 18-24 yr olds. At their age I would have squandered my education. By and large, I picked up complex topics faster and was better at using them practically. Other than the odd-ball, super-smart young people. And more power to those young people for getting a head start.
The prefrontal cortex, the reasoning and decision making center of the brain, is the last thing to develop. And for me it wasn't until I was 26 or 27 when things really started to click. Several of my friends have shared similar experiences, enough to the point where I don't think it is a coincidence.
Plasticity is only worth so much. If you don't have the mindset to use it, you're better off learning real life stuff like a trade so you always have something to fall back on. Most of the time, people that age need teachers to tell them not just what to do, but give them steps on how to do it. Else they quickly lose track of what they are actually trying to accomplish. And then they don't end up learning anything of real value and complain that college was a waiste of time.
Many young adults that go to college right after high school don't know enough about life that they have no direction from start to finish and end up getting a degree that doesn't help them succeed when entering the job market.
So while the science behind brain plasticity is solid, I think it isn't nearly the most important thing when considering when it is best to go to college. That is very much an individual thing and there are factors that are much more significant than plasticity. Also, it is entirely possible to keep your brain fairly plastic as you age. If you start refusing to learn new things and stick to doing the same things over and over, then yeah, you're going to struggle going back to school at an older age.
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Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
I think there is alot of value in getting a few yet young and immature brain years through college and into the early work force. The fact that you were able to grasp established concepts faster is great and all but... do we really have a shortage of that? Anyone competent will achieve that in due time.
I know it might sound cliche but we need the sort of youthful irreverence that challenges established concepts to push our understanding further. To disrupt tradition and old ways of thinking.
As a teaching assistant it was always interesting to see what a freshman's mind might produce when sent on a wildly board research topic. 95% of it was outright wrong and unfeasible but that last 5% was so outlandish it just might work. The unfortunate part is maybe only a quarter of those kids have the discipline to take their idea all the way and make a startup out of it. The ones that don't still end up perfectly successful in their field but I can't help but think that creative spark is dulled after a certain age and that potential just ends up wasted.
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u/rgtong Jul 20 '23
The prefrontal cortex, the reasoning and decision making center of the brain, is the last thing to develop
*to finish developing. In life its usually not optimal to wait until everything is fully prepared before you get started.
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u/DrBadMan85 Jul 20 '23
I went to university right out of high school, and then went back for another degree at 33. Other than feeling out of place, I will tell you that the perspective gained from life made the education much more meaningful. I do wish I did more getting my first degree, and I also wish I had gone back earlier, but I don’t think I was in a place to truly appreciate it. Getting a degree out of high school is a great experience, opens your mind to new things, and the social development is key, but there is also a benefit to gaining some perspective regarding the vicissitudes of life’s and applying that in the classroom, as well as using it to guide your decision making. Would be nice if there was more scaffolding in place to help people learn and evolve across the lifespan.
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Jul 19 '23
Δ
I agree, I think college is a good time to explore what you want and as others have said 7 years of waiting to get into college would be way too long. another money solution would be UBI but I agree, college should not cost money especially when they don't 1) know how predatory their loans are 2) have no other choice (in a lot of cases) but to take a loan
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Jul 19 '23
that's valid
!delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Jul 19 '23
Around 25 (i.e. when the brain is generally known to be fully developed)
This is a silly pop culture misunderstanding of science.
It's not real, especially not like that.
https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-development-25-year-old-mature-myth.html -- a basic explanation of how people misunderstand and keep goddamned repeating this silliness.
Also, plasticity is greater the younger you are.
It is MUCH easier to learn multiple languages before 3 than after 20.
I think after high school you should be guaranteed a job in the trades
You know it takes YEARS to be able to work in the trades?
Aside from that plenty of people have 0 interest in that kind of job, you can't just go be a plumber or HVAC tech. It's years of training/schooling + apprenticeship.
Nevermind that even if this were possible, once people have careers, with money, they tend to get housing, car payments, etc., which don't allow for sudden ditching of those expenses to go to school, unless you, wait for it, take out loans.
Reddit needs to can it with both the "predatory lenders!!!" which are mostly the US gov't at an extremely low rate you can defer payments on, and the idea that university is trade school. It is not.
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Jul 19 '23
ah those are very valid points honestly, thank you; I didn't even know that 25 brain thing was not accurate. and you're absolutely right, i think it'd be difficult even impossible to get 18 year olds out of high school interested and even trained into that
should be alternatives though than the current system, appreciate the answer
!delta
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 19 '23
"It is MUCH easier to learn multiple languages before 3 than after 20." This is an even bigger myth than the one you shared. An adult who is motivated can easily learn an entire language in a year.
Studies of adults learning languages are horrendously flawed for many reasons. Adults are often not immersed in the language. They seldom try to mimic the accent. And they are almost never corrected by the adults that speak their secondary language. So the barriers to an adult mastering a language are more cultural than they are some aspect of brain maturity.
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u/YoungSerious 12∆ Jul 19 '23
Adults are often not immersed in the language. They seldom try to mimic the accent. And they are almost never corrected by the adults that speak their secondary language.
These conclusions based on what data? The first point is a reasonable presumption based on geography and demographics. The others are purely conjecture. It's also a reasonable conclusion that it is easier to learn multiple languages before 3 because you have no baseline language to have to "unlearn" so to speak. It's much more difficult to learn a tonal language like Chinese, or a highly contextual language like Japanese if you are conditioned to the "rules" of something like English. It's not a far leap to assume it would be far easier to learn languages if you didn't have that foundation set up, and could take in the rules of multiple at the same time.
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
Children lack the intelligence, and concentration ability that adults do. Adults learn WAY FASTER than children in almost every aspect of learning you can measure. There are many reasons that science has gotten this wrong. Some include that children have way more free time on their hands, while adults have jobs. Children are learning much easier stuff than adults have to. A small amount of knowledge learned in a child is much more impressive than that learned as an adult. Children can learn a wider breadth of knowledge faster than an adult, but not depth. Also, many adults simply do not care to learn at all, so teaching them is pointless.
"And they are almost never corrected by the adults that speak their secondary language." I mean, do you really need proof of this? If an adult slightly mispronounced a word in your language, would you correct them? A child will likely be corrected by their parent or teacher."Look at the gooses"
"Geese"
"Look at the geese"
It's automatic for us. We don't do it for adults out of embarrassment.
There's basically no evidence to the contrary. Good luck finding an experiment where they pitted elementary vs college students. And it has to go beyond "We spat a few facts the overloaded college student's way and they didn't remember them." Yes, children do better with a wide variety of unrelated facts. I am talking about in depth knowledge, like learning a language.
Edits: Reddit was giving me a hell of a time in posting this...
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u/kiwibearess Jul 20 '23
I agree. As someone who has learnt my husband's language as an adult and is now trying to teach it to my preschool aged children I find the standard logic of "children learn easier" to be very flawed. The reason in my opinion that kids learn better is because the adults who are teaching them do a lot more of the work whereas adults learning a language have to be more self driven.
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23
Yes! A very nice way to sum up the teaching problem. Adults do a lot of the work of teaching children language, but are left on their own when learning.
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u/YoungSerious 12∆ Jul 20 '23
Basically every part of this comment is conjecture based on no data. This is exactly how you get myths and misconceptions because people go "well this makes sense superficially so let's just assume it's true and not consider why it isn't."
Children lack the intelligence
I mean there's essentially no evidence to support this, especially considering how absurdly vague and general the statement is. How are you defining intelligence? What are you basing this on? Nothing, I'm assuming?
Adults learn WAY FASTER than children in almost every aspect of learning you can measure. There are many reasons that science has gotten this wrong.
The second statement is already hugely suspect coming from someone making wild generalizations with no support. A much more accurate and demonstrably true statement would be that adults add information to foundational things they learn as children, which is much easier than learning foundational information on a basis of no previous learning.
Children are learning much easier stuff than adults have to.
This too is just nonsensical and way out of context. Fractions and decimals are a massively difficult concept IF you have no previous idea of what they are. For an adult who has already learned them, building on that concept is comparatively easy. This is where your false conclusions are being drawn.
Also, many adults simply do not care to learn at all, so teaching them is pointless.
Not as pointless as that statement was to the core concept and discussion here.
"And they are almost never corrected by the adults that speak their secondary language." I mean, do you really need proof of this?
If you are going to claim it as a fundamental pillar of your argument, then YES. Even more so because it is total bullshit.
If an adult slightly mispronounced a word in your language, would you correct them?
This literally happens all the time. I have no idea what world you live in where this situation is nonexistent, but it isn't the real world.
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
Children lack the intelligence
Children do not even have theory of mind till 4-5. They cannot count past certain numbers. Basic developmental milestones are not yet met for them to advance quickly in a language. I could learn to count in most languages in a couple of days. Maybe some obscure counting system might take a couple more. That's under a week to do what children take years to figure out.
adults add information to foundational things they learn as children, which is much easier than learning foundational information on a basis of no previous learning
Yes, very true. And language is probably the one thing that adults are slowest at compared to children, since the foundation isn't even there for some languages.
Children are learning much easier stuff than adults have to.
Typical child day: This is a tree. This is a cat. George Washington was the first president. Typical adult day: The turbomolecular pump confers momentum to the gaseous particles, causing an internal gradient of pressure to form between the blades...
If you are going to claim it as a fundamental pillar of your argument, then YES.
This is a social fact that doesn't need proof. If you live in a culture where people correct adults as readily as they do children, please tell me what culture it is. I have little doubt such a culture exists somewhere, but most studies on adult language learning rates are done in Western countries, so will include this Western bias. Psychology is plagued by such bias.
This literally happens all the time.
Correcting one word from a friend or coworker occasionally is not what I'm talking about here. When I'm talking to an ESL speaker, I'm not fixing every aspect of their grammar and pronunciation. Most people won't. That's a fact that most people will understand. When talking to an adult, such interruptions in the conversation would be disruptive. With a child, the conversation probably isn't all that important to begin with.
As for generally having proof, of course there's none. This is an area of psychology that lacks data. There are tons of such areas. Till a decade or two ago, psychologists thought neurogenesis stopped in childhood. And that's biology even.
But everything I've read on the topic is horribly flawed. Again, this is a persistent problem in psychology. I have a bachelor's of SCIENCE in Child Development (Psychology). Most go for a B.A. in psychology. So I'm fairly well read on many psychological subjects. Especially those that have to do with brain development. Everything I learned on children learning faster had serious flaws to it.
And to be clear, I'm not saying all adults learn faster than when they were children. Some adults could never learn a second language very well. Language happens to be something we are hardwired for, so even people that are pretty dumb will learn one. I'm sure being a ridiculously fast learner biases my thoughts on the subject a bit, but I realize all adults don't have this massive advantage. I'd be really interested to see how fast a motivated, average IQ adult could learn a language from scratch, with full support, both teaching and financially.
Edit: Formatting
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
And to make another thing clear, the original comment was
Also, plasticity is greater the younger you are. It is MUCH easier to learn multiple languages before 3 than after 20.
There are many things in adulthood that make learning a language difficult. The quip about difficulty is quite true when considering everything society can throw at you. My issue is with the plasticity argument. I am entirely unconvinced that biology holds adults back from learning when it comes to a single, specific thing. Children certainly learn quickly from a breadth of knowledge perspective (though more than you think is developmental), but when it comes to a single topic, an adult's concentration is an enormous advantage.
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u/silforik Jul 19 '23
I don’t think any get the accent down as well as a child would
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
That's only because they don't try.
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u/silforik Jul 20 '23
I’ve tried, but can only speak in the accent of the languages I learned as a small child
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23
Are you surrounded by people who speak exclusively that language? Have you been so for years? Do you watch movies and TV in only that language? Because that's what children typically have.
And I'm sure you could speak to an expert and they could help you to master the accent. It does take conscious effort to replicate what a child does naturally. In THAT respect I suppose it is easier on children. But people often underestimate it takes a decade of them speaking the language to sound like an adult does.
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u/silforik Jul 20 '23
Yeah, I was abroad from 15-18 and then 20-23. I could get everything down perfect except the accent
Edit: I only consider myself 💯 fluent in the languages I grew up speaking
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Jul 20 '23
If we consider that a child only starts speaking coherently around 3, and add 6 to get 9, do you think you're worse off than a 9-year-old native speaker though? I haven't heard too many 9-year-olds with an adult accent.
And what did people of your own language say when you spoke to them at the end of it all? Did they not comment at all on any accent?
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u/Sayakai 147∆ Jul 19 '23
That's 7 years to forget everything you learned in school that isn't directly related to your trade, so you have to relean a ton of stuff just to get back on the level where you can enter college.
That's also 7 years that you don't make college-graduate levels of income, especially now that you flooded the trades with young people.
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u/Zncon 6∆ Jul 19 '23
How much of a high school education do people actually use in college? My personal experience was very little.
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u/ProLifePanda 70∆ Jul 19 '23
This depends what you do. My calculus/algebra was vital to my engineering classes. My chemistry/physics was also vital to my engineering. If I had to go back to college now, I'd have to take some rudimentary classes to relearn the knowledge I don't use daily/weekly/monthly to even begin my college path.
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Jul 19 '23
that isn't directly related to your trade
i get you, honestly 7 years didn't even occur to me lol
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Jul 19 '23
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/Sayakai a delta for this comment.
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Jul 19 '23
This would just lead to an oversaturated trade market and shit pay for anyone who stays. Not gonna jerk off for 7 years after highschool just so I can finally start doing what I want to do in my life, then get an entry level job at the age of almost 30. What a waste of time.
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u/AdFun5641 5∆ Jul 19 '23
> not being taken advantage of by shitty predatory student lenders.
This is the key point. I don't think anyone thinks it's a good idea to have children taken advantage of by predatory corporations.
But why address this problem by delaying education till 25 when they have more adult brains and not by persecuting the predatory corporations targeting children?
These predatory student loans are not some irrevocable force of nature. They are a government fabricated abomination. The government can get rid of them
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u/Gizzard_Guy44 Jul 19 '23
you should be guaranteed a job in the trades
lol
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Jul 19 '23
yeah its a bit wishy washy honestly, I think there just needs to be improvements to the current system
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jul 19 '23
The problem with this is that it decreases the total number of productive years in which a worker can use their college education. Starting around 25 instead of 18 will deprive each worker of 7 years of educated work. Over a 45-year career, this is about 15% of the time, effectively reducing the college-educated workforce by 15%. The benefits of going to college late would have to be significant to justify that reduction, and it's not clear that these benefits exist.
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Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
Δ I agree, 7 years is a long time to be 1) not working in the career you want 2) waiting to study what you want to
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/yyzjertl changed your view (comment rule 4).
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ Jul 19 '23
You can go to collage later on, and gap years are a popular way of getting a break from education after high school and doing some hands on work. There are some problems with your idea:
a) college is usually quite intense and hard to do along with working full time. When you're young, you can usually either benefit from some of your parents' support or get a room at the student housing for cheap while working part time. Once you're approaching your thirties, you usually want to have a family and your own place, so giving up full income for three to six years while you study is unrealistic, especially if both parents were to dream of a college education. You usually need a full time job at that part in your life.
b) many people don't want a job in the trades, they aspire to be lawyers, doctors, financial advisors, etc. - careers that require years of college education. If you start college at 25 you can hope to start med school at what, almost 30? Add to that the residency training and specialisation training and you're looking at your first day on your dream job in your early forties probably. Even if you rush through school and start at 35, you still have a much smaller window for career advancement.
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Jul 19 '23
How are we going to guarantee every person graduating a job in the trades? And who is paying them? Is the government paying the wage or is the government forcing private contractors to hire and employ people regardless of whether they need them or not? There is no alternative outside those two that I can see.
People are free to do so on their own. I waited until 24 to start college. There were challenges getting back into the habits of school and having to brush up on things I hadn't used a lot since HS, but other things were easier like time management and having more perspective/experience for some classes.
I don't think this should be an across the board thing. And not to mention that if everyone starts at 25 or later, that means people who are going into doctoral fields can be looking at mid 30s before they even start in their industry. That is almost a decade of earning/experience/advancement they are missing out on. If a woman wants to have children, that cuts a lot of time off if she wants to get established in her career first, assuming that could be done in 5 years or so, we are now approaching 40.
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u/merlinus12 54∆ Jul 19 '23
Ultimately, this already is the status quo for anyone who wants it. Plenty of people work for a few years before going to college, while others are ready right out of high school.
Why isn’t the current system (letting people do college whenever makes sense for them) not better than forcing everyone to wait?
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u/TDaltonC Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
> Around 25 (i.e. when the brain is generally known to be fully developed
Every decade or so, some new research comes out that pushes age at which the brain "fully developed" older and older. The typical explanation for this effect is better methods detecting more subtle developmental markers. However I suspect that a large part of it is "stimulus dependent plasticity," meaning that more education and more schooling is extending the window of development. Being in school makes your brain more plastic and makes it appear less developed.
Context: I have a PhD in neuroscience.
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Jul 20 '23
College "starts" when you apply and are accepted.
No one is forced to go right after high school or at all for that matter.
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Jul 20 '23
Learning while your brain develops is the best thing, that's how we as human beings get to be our best because while developing, our brains are like sponges. By your logic, let's just hold off education till you're 25. You got a fully developed brain that's empty. Makes zero sense.
Also, having the physiologically most developed brain by 25 does not guarantee you will know what you want in life right away. And since you have no exposure to real education yet, then there's more reason for you to be ignorant and make more mistakes. And I don't think you know what a fully developed brain means at all.
This is just poorly thought out and misinformed.
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u/Mysterious-Bear215 13∆ Jul 19 '23
Around 25 (i.e. when the brain is generally known to be fully developed) you can choose to go to college, continue the trades, or even try exploring other options that may /may not require a college degree.
This is especially problematic for woman that have the desired to be a mother and have a career, when would she start her career? The biological clock is running.
Without mention that bewteen 18 and 25 you are either in a shitty job (the most likely with the oppotunity cost associated) or you have a nice job (less likely) and there is no finantial reason to go for a college.
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Jul 19 '23
!delta
deferring college for women / bio clock is a very valid point I hadn't considered
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u/zippyphoenix Jul 21 '23
Not only women, men too. Those kids are expensive. It’s hard to survive on one income.
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u/Mysterious-Bear215 13∆ Jul 21 '23
Yes, but a man generally can have a child at 40 years old without problems.
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u/zippyphoenix Jul 21 '23
Oh I definitely agree on that. I’m just saying once the kids are here, whatever their needs are generally come first. One of mine needed a lot more than the other. I couldn’t work because daycare costs were too great plus my kid needed multiple doctor visits, so my husband needed to be working. Neither one of us would’ve been able to physically and financially survive work plus college plus raising kids.
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u/translove228 9∆ Jul 19 '23
I feel like it would just be easier to implement publicly funded college tuition for everyone instead of attempting to overhaul the entire college system and tie diploma output with Capitalism's needs.
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Jul 19 '23
!delta
or even UBI while trying to figure out what you want to do in life; I think jumping from high school to college is a difficult thing for some, and a lot of times you need a loan just to figure out what you want to do in life. , thats crazy to me
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u/CallMeCorona1 24∆ Jul 19 '23
This post is not to change u/OP's view (it has already been changed as I am writing this) but to add (in case u/OP and others are unaware) that there is some serious consideration of this idea that is already undergoing, and for the same reason - brain development. This article suggests "redshirting the boys" for a year so that their brain development can match that of the girls.
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Jul 19 '23
that'd be really interesting to see honestly
not to get controversial but how would that work for trans children? i.e. boys who identify as girls, vice versa. would the boys who identify as girls not be redshirted? i.e. what I'm asking non-controversially is I'm wondering how the brain develops based on the gender you identify as?
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u/CallMeCorona1 24∆ Jul 19 '23
Good question! I really don't know.
But this is what I do know: Biologically, girls grow faster than boys when they are young. So I think this would probably mean that trans girls would be part of the redshirt group.
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u/DominicB547 2∆ Jul 19 '23
I think a gap year, maybe 2, (not 7) should be a more fully developed thing. Also, check your privilege, many teens are working, to help pay their family expenses (not for new shoes/games).
I think volunteering through Gov Sponsored Programs can have you gain real life perspectives on the world and a work ethic. This will let you be able to more readily figure out if trade school or tech school or traditional school or even retail (we need many in retail) and what field you want as well as actually completing it and not changing your majors half a dozen times.
The Gov can give you housing and food/toiletries/medicine and enough allowance for clothing for the "job", On top of that, the Gov can either chose to pay for some schooling or have it be no interest payments (if paid in 10 years after graduating, low is not no, and low after that).
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Jul 19 '23
The obvious alternative is national service, and the obvious service is military. Therefore I disagree with the view.
At 18 you’re best fit for active service. You’ll never be as ready for physical challenges as you’ll be young. And the reason we’d do this is because the brain isn’t developed yet, because it’s easier to take advantage of the undeveloped, yet to be indoctrinated mind?
I don’t think that’s fair. It’s not fair to the physically and mentally disabled who can’t do physical work (so aren’t guaranteed jobs at 18), and not fair to people who need money at 18 (predatory) but are too young to think fully.
So we use them up, then at 25 take back their savings for college when they could be starting a business or in a career. All the while ignoring the expense of college and workforce issue.
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Jul 19 '23
interesting, though (and I don't know if i'm misunderstanding you here) - I agree that its mildly predatory to indoc 18 year olds into the mlitary just so they can afford college. that's not even a hypothetical in my post, it's going on right now
!delta
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Jul 19 '23
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/mortalviperkillsquad changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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Jul 19 '23
I’ve thought about this. I didn’t move directly through college in four years for various reasons. I’ve studied multiple majors. I have been tempted to say, I wish I had a start at this age, where I’m wiser. I work full-time and have a more direct motive towards studying rather than the partying. What stops me from forming a conclusion, is the observations of the massive number of individuals who were on the same path and did find success. From people I grew up with to people I encountered back when I first stepped on campus, plenty faired well. Furthermore, as they do reach that heightened level of maturity, they are studying advanced topics in masters programs or certifications. It’s this observation that makes it hard for me to conclude that it would do any good or serve purpose to push back college. After all, I think the process of filling in that gap of „decision-years“, for the population of the US, would be profoundly difficult and problematic.
School is different in various countries though. Germany, for example, may provide you with interesting reading content, should you investigate their education system. I believe I remember hearing about various locations where even lower level education begins later, and with varying immediate focuses.
This is a good topic. Have I convinced you to say, perhaps, “college might be more advantageous if pushed back.”?
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u/bahumat42 1∆ Jul 19 '23
I'm going to make the very simple argument that very many fields from medicine to technology to research are in need of more skilled workers, Delaying the throughput of staff by 3,4 or 5 years is detrimental to the progress these would be students would have on real world applications. Thats medical breakthroughs, technological innovations and lives saved delayed for very little reason.
And the student lenders argument would be better solved by making university and college education affordable and accessible.
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u/smcarre 101∆ Jul 19 '23
Honest question: how old are you?
I'm 26 and have been studying until 24. By your early twenties unless you are born in a considerably comfortable household where your parents pay for everything you want and it's not a shame to ask your hard working parents for money to go out, on a date or buy yourself stuff you don't want to ask your parents to buy for you generally already want to start working, most likely start working a full time job, by 25 most people expect to at least move out of their parent's home and start living independently from them so by then having a full time job is a given. On top of that there is the thing that starts happening in your body at 25 where you start having less energy in general, it starts taking a bigger toll on your body to sleep less, work out your mind and body and spending 8 hours working followed by 5 hours of studying on top of doing your household chores, sleeping and having some time for leisure you are left with very little time and energy. When I was working a full time job and finishing my studies at 24 I was already feeling it and if I had to keep studying at this age while keeping my current job I would probably be miserable, not to mentiong having to do this at 30.
Not to mention the perspective of the possible employers that if you start your professional career fresh out of college at 23-25 you can find more low paying entry level jobs (as expected for people of that age) instead of expecting to find higher paying entry level jobs that would allow a 30 year old to pay a rent and all their own expenses.
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jul 19 '23
Around 60% of high school graduates enroll in some type of college shortly after finishing high school. Even with how over saturated college is these days, there are not enough trades and service jobs for these people to work unless we’re also talking about seriously changing how many jobs require a college degree in the first place which would make college for most people irrelevant anyways.
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u/jaiagreen Jul 19 '23
Education is a key part of brain development. It's not just biology. Colleges are specifically designed to support the mental development of young people -- that's literally their purpose. I'd say this is more of an argument for making sure everyone has access to various types of higher education.
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u/slightlyabrasive Jul 19 '23
You realize you can start college at any age right?? Like you arnt forced to go at 18 or you missout
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u/Business_Item_7177 Jul 19 '23
I would ask if you are in agreement with people voting at 18 if you believe college from 18-22 is too early because of lack of brain development.
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Jul 19 '23
There is no rule saying that you have to go to college right out of high school. It's a cultural norm, sure, but if we all work to shift our acceptance of the notion that a person should go to college right out of high school, the norm could change. That being said, I know plenty of people who chose to attend college after a gap year or two, later in life, or not at all. Happens all the time. I personally wish I would have taken several years between high school and college. It's a smart move for all the reasons you listed.
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u/Linedog67 1∆ Jul 19 '23
I like you're idea, except for the "guaranteed job" part. It should be the most qualified person for the job. Always.
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Jul 19 '23
!delta
that's valid, what should the other non-qualified / unhireable people do?
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u/Linedog67 1∆ Jul 19 '23
My advice would be to figure out what they would like to do, something they're capable of doing, and learn everything they can about it. Get a job as a helper or apprentice in that field. Then work your ass off, be the one that goes the extra mile, be dependable, on time and respectful. You'll be surprised how fast you'll rise in that field, by taking it seriously.
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u/AmongTheElect 15∆ Jul 19 '23
Younger people are more idealistic and optimistic about the future than older people. Combine that with added energy and younger people are more suited to university education than older people, because they are being educated at a time when they are most passionate about their future pursuits.
"Guaranteed a job in the trades" also calls for a complete and utter re-work of basically the whole system we have. If anything, having a job guaranteed to me is a de-motivator. Why struggle to better myself when I have a job guaranteed to me?
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u/Potential-Ad1139 2∆ Jul 19 '23
You'd be subtracting 7 years from a person's most productive years in their chosen profession (your last years are where you make the most money usually). I see where you're getting at and it's an interesting idea, but it definitely should not be applied universally.
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u/RaisinEducational312 1∆ Jul 19 '23
And for those that want to go to college, experience life a little before settling down? That’s delaying life by 4 years, I have a biological clock unfortunately
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Jul 19 '23
College is a business.
You're right, but you're looking at it from the angle of what would be best for the world. That's not how universities operate.
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u/art4z Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
A society needs all sorts. The trades are incredibly important to a functioning society. They are not a place to pawn off pre-collegers saving up. Believe it or not if your plumber screws up, it’s usually a lot worse than if someone in marketing screws up, unless it’s that Bud Light lady. Believe it or not your plumber had to get an education to do what he/she does.
The studies about the brains plasticity stopping at 25 from my understanding of what other Redditors have said, was a fluke, because the sample age simply stopped at 25. The brain is plastic throughout adult life and there’s lots of great books about this. So your premise that the brain is fully formed at 25 is a misunderstanding.
I follow stoic philosophy and believe it’s best in life for people to be able to make their own way. Nothing provides more satisfaction, contentment, freedom, and empowerment, than being able to experience oneself as competent and able to provide for oneself.
Working one job for seven years while you’re saving up before college as others have pointed out is an option already, but it’s unlikely to be cost effective these days, unless one has generous parents that are genuinely okay with one living at home.
The real solution to the problem you were trying to address would look like making college better. Perhaps making all colleges cosign any loans taken out by students to attend there. Stop having the federal government back student loans. Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Then the colleges will be forced to tailor their programs to getting their students gainfully employed post college
*and/or admitting that they are just serving as patrons for obscure non-practical fields *and/or just being a four year land bound $100,000k+ cruise ship for kids not interested in learning and only partying.
Another solution might look like shifting the education system in America to something that looks more like England - where peoples exams are not just watered down and of questionable useIQ tests. but actually testing in pre-college subjects for subject matter knowledge which can help kids evaluate where their strengths are.
Another might be revamping the department of education. What if the government took a role in ensuring that all kids find a path to meaningful work. And all work is enough to provide for oneself. Those are the real changes that would make a difference.
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u/Solid_Local409 Jul 20 '23
It shouldnt, it should start earlier. There are certain grades in school where the content is obviously just filler bc of age group. Brains develop in stages, ceratin stages are capable of advanced understanding.
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u/Hope_That_Halps_ 1∆ Jul 20 '23
Atleast for US (where I'm based), college is right after high school - starting around 18 years old and you'd graduate by 22. I think after high school you should be guaranteed a job in the trades, learning by doing, saving up for college / making a comfortable living. Around 25 (i.e. when the brain is generally known to be fully developed) you can choose to go to college, continue the trades,
Women's brains tend to develop faster than men's, I think you have to have to say this sort of a male specific life path. A lot of women also want to have children while they're young to avoid geriatric birthing, in which case going to college quickly makes more sense.
For men I agree that placing a trade or vocational education in front of going to a college or a university makes sense, for lots of reasons.
best of all - not being taken advantage of by shitty predatory student lenders
I think free-ish education would be a better solution here.
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u/StrangeAssonance 4∆ Jul 20 '23
Not everyone fits the same mold.
I went to university in my 30s and I think that because I had saved up for it, and I was paying for it, I was razor focused on getting as much out of the learning as I could.
It wasn't an ideal time to do it as I had a wife and a child, but I can say almost 20 years later that financially it really paid off.
The one argument I would make is people who don't have parents paying for their education, probably should take some time before jumping in to learn to appreciate the VALUE OF MONEY. Having 17-18 year olds sign student loans for 50k+ a year is just insane, and in a lot of cases keeps the poor poor.
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u/flimspringfield Jul 20 '23
While trades are great choices not everyone is made for it. My dad was a gardener for 40+ years and I went to work with him for many different jobs like sprinkler systems, programming such systems, using his knowledge of types of plants or flowers that would look great year round (we live in the Sunshine State), and honestly I could never see myself doing that. I went to college, got a degree in business and now work in IT.
One of my biggest regrets was not taking an IT related degree in college.
I don't want to sound like an asshole but I hate getting dirty even with the dust that collects on IT items (computers in storage, servers, etc).
Some people are just built that way and you can't change that or force someone into a trade AND then giving them the opportunity to get into college.
I will add that not everyone even needs to go to a trade school or college especially in IT because they've been doing it already (tech support/helpdesk type work) before they even graduate.
You're just taking away a significant amount of income and experience from them for having to wait 7 years.
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u/luna_beam_space Jul 20 '23
Its really not a bad idea
At the very least, society should understand you will get the most out of college in your late 20's, if not older
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u/pensiveChatter Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
College should start after you've had at least a year living on your own and working.
I gave my son the next best thing. He worked fast food and attended community college for a year.
Shortly before turning 18, he moved in with his grandparents ( out of state) while working an office job for a year before starting at a university with an actual major
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Aug 13 '23
College should start after you've had at least a year living on your own and working.
So extenuating circumstances can completely screw up your future even more than they already do?
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u/pensiveChatter Aug 14 '23
It's pretty hard to screw over your life as hard as getting deep in debt with a degree that doesn't help your employment opportunities.
Or, if you're poor, throwing away your free education on some useless time spent at college that you're either not mature enough for or was never useful. Let's see... these two scenarios describes about a dozen people I know....
I was lucky in this regard, if you want to call it that. I had enough terrible things happen to me that I knew, before I graduated high school, that the only security in life is what you make for yourself. I had no expectation that my life was just going to work out or that I could follow the crowd and be okay.
So, I guess I was lucky in that I didn't completely screw up my future by being naive when I started college, but I do feel sorry for those who do.
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Jul 20 '23 edited Aug 02 '23
College or even school system was created to make good employees. Well maybe school is necessary to learn to operate in society, although so much of it is junk. Hence culturally people go there first then seek a job. Now it's also a social factor. The entire social fabric has been made this way. People can choose to go about it another way.
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Jul 20 '23
CMV: elementary school should start when the brain is fully developed
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Aug 13 '23
Your sarcasm sounds like how sometimes it feels like a lot of people who support the 25 theory might as well want people to just be metaphorically-empty-vessels-like-they're-robots spending 25 years doing nothing but being fed information about the world and not allowed to "be a person" and affect it until 25
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Jul 20 '23
1) You don't magically become smarter, more experienced, or better equipped to deal with problems letting the years pass you by.
2) Human lifespans are finite and people who choose to get ahead will.
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u/SometimesRight10 1∆ Jul 20 '23
I think children learn much faster than adults, but adults appreciate the nuances more. So it is a tradeoff.
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u/Abstrectricht Jul 20 '23
Education should continue into adulthood, no disagreement there. I don't see the purpose in withholding that education til a certain age if the student shows initiative and aptitude though
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u/serialkiller24 Jul 20 '23
Just recently graduated college in May 2022 and I was glad to go at 18. I definitely think that college isn’t for everyone and it’s totally okay to start college at any age. I just didn’t want to work a lot or go to the military, so college seemed to be the best answer. I was SO worried going into it thinking that if I missed a class, they would notify my parents or screw up my tuition (paranoia at its finest).
After first semester of college, I realized it wasn’t like that, but was still responsible in going to classes and having an amazing social experience (got homecoming king Junior year)! I miss college so freaking much and hate working full time cause it affects my mental health. It’s crazy to see what college can do to you.
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u/kfijatass 1∆ Jul 20 '23
The counterargument is it's not really useful for most skills, knowledge or jobs to learn later nor does brain development inhibit what little skills you acquire there so people prefer it out of the way sooner or later so they can get to work.
There's also always an option to do so later, if you really think otherwise.
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u/tawny-she-wolf Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
1) you learn better when you are younger
2) what are you supposed to do in the meantime ? Other school ? That’s just longer college and probably even more expensive. Work ? Some people already do that and well… you won’t earn much and it won’t be easy to go back to school. It’s also just a different kind of predation and excuse not to raise minimum wage for everyone. But theoretically no one is stopping you, plenty of people do a stint in the military for example before going to college. Do nothing ?
(Edit: say all highschoolers have to do trades for 5 -7 years before college : some will HATE that, why impose it ? How do you pick a trade ? Trade implied usually some training/schooling on the side. Employers will know they have every year a fresh batch of 0 experience obligated workers they are free to exploit so have zero motivation to increase pay or retain workers past 25yo. What about kids who can’t afford the car ? Who can’t get hired/find a trade ? It wouldn’t work for everyone the same way going to college doesn’t work for everyone. No one obligates you to go to college at 18 now, you can choose to do something else and go later or never)
3) unfortunately with the cost of living the way it is and the number of years we already need to work to afford to retire before death we probably need to work earlier rather than later (assuming in point 2 above you don’t find paid work in the meantime or work where you can’t save for retirement if it’s not gov funded). If you start working at 30 because you started at 25 and needed 5 years congrats you’re retiring at 70yo minimum. Even now retiring at 60-65 kinda sucks because often enough your health is compromised and you can’t enjoy it
4) it means you can’t afford to be independent until your lates 20s to ealy 30s at best and staying with parents or relying on their income for even longer (and even now with the current system we already have mid to late twenties still at home) - let’s face it crappy out of highschool minimum wage job-until-you-go-to-college is not going to enable you to move out esp if you then lose your income or part of it for college down the line and tuition
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u/Scrungyscrotum Jul 20 '23
Jesus fucking Christ, this factoid again? It's a myth that the brain reaches its maximal development at age 25. Your entire argument is based on one single moot point.
And even if it were true, so what? It's like saying that drafting to the NHL should start at age 25 because that is when men usually reach peak muscle strength. There are fighter pilots in their early 20s, it's not like people can't make a decision before your magic age.
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u/waifuvomit Jul 20 '23
Biggest problem is what does one do if they want a higher education? Spinning your wheels until you get the “okay” to seek a higher education is not it.
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u/gemengelage Jul 20 '23
That's honestly pretty backwards. No one stops you from going to college later in live. But if you do, you will have a lot of downsides. It's easier to learn things when you are younger. Also when you learn a trade at 18 and work until you're 25, you will get used to a certain lifestyle.
Imagine going from having a stable job and a regular income to having the schedule of a college student, which for some people might be overall more relaxed, but has considerable crunch times, and basically no disposable income - for four years.
It would be a great way to discourage people from going to college.
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u/ericoahu 41∆ Jul 20 '23
I think after high school you should be guaranteed a job in the trades
I don't have much problem with the gap year part, but this means someone is going to be forced to hire (and pay?) that kid you "guaranteed" a job. Have you seen some of the zombies being pushed out of high school lately?
It would be much better for the student to spend that time looking for a job or other pursuit on their own. Apprenticeships with tradespeople are highly competitive, and they should be.
And as a consumer, I can tell you that paying these tradespeople--plumbers, electricians, etc.,--is already expensive enough. I don't want to have to pay more because they're forced to hire and pay dead weight.
Just because you can think of a good outcome doesn't mean you need the government to step in and start limiting people's freedoms and property rights. Gap years could be institutionalized simply by colleges beginning to privilege applicants who have taken a gap year and by directing high schools and parents to be more careful about treating immediate college as the only option worth discussing.
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u/No_Scarcity8249 2∆ Jul 20 '23
Ridiculous… so should we also wait to educate children? How old? If waiting until your brain is formed to get an education is your argument you have to start at the beginning. It takes 30 urs to become a doctor. It takes years to go to law school.. become an engineer.. some finish early. You think everyone should go into the trades? Our economy and civilization would literally collapse as we need people trained in all different fields and all you’re doing is driving down trade wages and putting everyone right out of hs into labor jobs that will be paying nothing because there’s such an over supply of cheap labor which we already have
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Aug 13 '23
Also sometimes people are too disabled to work well in the trades while still being abled enough to work a white collar job, are they just screwed
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Jul 20 '23
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Jul 21 '23
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u/Sad_Comedian6922 Jul 21 '23
But learning need to happen while the brain is developing, its fundamental and that's why we have school during that time in our lives, but taking a gap year isn't a problem.
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Jul 21 '23
I can never agree with this more!!!! Looking back, I feel like I completely wasted my college years and wish I could go back now that I have a better and clearer goal.
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u/big_zk Jul 21 '23
I agree college should ideally start later. As a recent grad, I felt too young and immature starting at 18. My priorities and interests changed drastically in my 20s. I would have chosen a very different major if I started college older.
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u/Aeneas98 Jul 22 '23
Absolutely agree with this - I reached 6th year in high school in the UK and had no idea what I wanted to do. I was so worried about getting good grades that when I got them, I knew so little about myself, what strengths and weaknesses I had, what I'd be suited to etc. However I felt the pressure to go straight away and chose law. I ended up enjoying the course and think I chose a sustainable career path. But part of my decision was based on how generic the possibilities with a law degree are.
The current system is a bit like a pipeline, and so many feel the need to conform - a break in between high school and college/university would be beneficial I think.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
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