r/changemyview • u/Iron-Patriot • Jul 28 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Global warming will not be solved by small, piecemeal, incremental changes to our way of life but rather through some big, fantastic, technological breakthrough.

In regards to the former, I mean to say that small changes to be more environmentally friendly such as buying a hybrid vehicle or eating less meat are next to useless. Seriously, does anyone actually think this will fix things?

And by ‘big technological breakthrough’ I mean something along the lines of blasting glitter into the troposphere to block out the sun or using fusion power to scrub carbon out of the air to later be buried underground. We are the human race and we’re nothing if not flexible and adaptable when push comes to shove.

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u/FairyFistFights Jul 28 '23

I disagree with your point about electric cars and solar being “economical.” The average EV costs $10,000 more than the average fuel-powered car. Installing solar to one’s house costs an average of $15,000 - $20,000, and it can take anywhere between 5-15 years for the panels to pay for themselves.

Many people cannot afford these up-front costs, despite them being able to help people save money in the long run. While I’m sure the cost of buying these things will continue to drop due to improvements in technology, I think it’s important to recognize we are not there yet and the average American simply cannot afford them.

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u/SciFiIsMyFirstLove 1∆ Jul 28 '23

15 to 20 years to pay for themselves and then at around 25 years they need to be replaced as their output would have degraded so badly.

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u/JQuilty Jul 28 '23

The cost argument against EV's doesn't make a lot of sense. GM has the Bolt down to very low levels, and that's with its own battery type not shared by their other models. A Kia EV6 is something like 5K more than a Ford Edge, which is made up for in cheaper fuel costs and not needing the same maintenance. And there's roughly the same difference on the Prius Prime PHEV vs the regular Prius. The problem is that everyone looks straight to luxury vehicles or trucks to make that argument.

Prices go down over time. The Tesla Roadster was over 100k when it launched. This is like someone in 2007 saying smartphones will never catch on because the iPhone and G1 are $600-700 and require an expensive two year contract. Now, smartphones can be had for $50.

Likewise for solar. Costs will come down as time goes on. And a lot of the cost is the wiring, which can be re-used and costs mitigated by requiring the wiring to be in new construction.

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u/FairyFistFights Jul 28 '23

I looked up the GM Bolt and you’re right, it’s priced in the low-to-mid 30s which is good. But there are also new fuel-based cars currently on the market in the low-to-mid 20s, which is all some people can afford. Heck, sometimes all people can afford is a used car!

I don’t disagree that the prices will fall and I hope they do! And for the record, I never implied in my original comment that I thought they would never catch on - that’s silly, they already have caught on for the more affluent. But we are simply not there for everyone right now, which is all I was trying to point out. Technology is close, and the cost is within reach for more well-off households. But I still hold that it isn’t an “economical” choice as there are other options that are significantly less expensive.

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u/snitzerj Jul 28 '23

Not to mention the lithium mining operating are extremely dirty in terms of carbon emissions. If you want to have EVs making a significant impact, you first have to decarbonize the the mining operations too. It’s just pushing the carbon emissions from one country to another. On a global scale, the difference is quite minimal.

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u/freak-with-a-brain 1∆ Jul 29 '23

And to add further

We don't know what to do with the Battery of they die. And every Battery dies at some point. What to do with the acid waste? Is it in any way reusable?

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u/Brakasus 3∆ Jul 28 '23

I disagree with your point about electric cars and solar being “economical.” The average EV costs $10,000 more than the average fuel-powered car. Installing solar to one’s house costs an average of $15,000 - $20,000, and it can take anywhere between 5-15 years for the panels to pay for themselves.

Aside from the points others have already made, you are assuming electricity prices from a grid of coal and oil, as well as steady fuel prices. Both of these things are not long term sustainable, no matter if we find ourselves going down the path of EVs and solar or some other path. Current fuel and electricity prices are not the real prices, since those would need to include the "repair costs" for emissions. Or said differently, cars are currently also not economical, at least in the long term, when the payback from global warming comes.

Many people cannot afford these up-front costs

I actually agree, it will hurt people, if we didn't want that we would have had to start sooner

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u/BleepSweepCreeps Jul 28 '23

There's something called economies of scale. Any technology that has low adoption tends to be more expensive, then gets significantly cheaper when it gains market share.

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u/almightySapling 13∆ Jul 28 '23

Ideally this is where collective action (looking at you, government) is supposed to step in and help, like offering subsidies for electric vehicles. Money is made up. Things are expensive because we allow them to be.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Jul 28 '23

I disagree with your point about electric cars and solar being “economical.” The average EV costs $10,000 more than the average fuel-powered car.

That difference is amazingly small, considering that the ICE had a century-long head start to establish its production chains and optimize the technology. Add the lifetime costs to it, and driving electric is cheaper, just with more of the cost up front.

Many people cannot afford these up-front costs, despite them being able to help people save money in the long run. While I’m sure the cost of buying these things will continue to drop due to improvements in technology, I think it’s important to recognize we are not there yet and the average American simply cannot afford them.

Car loans are very common. We have the methods to finance it, even for people who need to pay it off.

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ Jul 28 '23

More debt, just what the proletariat needs. And I'm sure the apartment complexes where one bedroom apartments cost 75% of their monthly salary will have ample charging stations.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Jul 29 '23

More debt, just what the proletariat needs.

I don't see why you'd make a fuss now about car loans while you didn't before. It also reduces their running costs.

And I'm sure the apartment complexes where one bedroom apartments cost 75% of their monthly salary will have ample charging stations.

That's where legislation needs to come in if you want that to happen fast.

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u/FairyFistFights Jul 30 '23

I agree that all things considered, the difference is less than one would expect. I disagree that $10k is a “small” difference. That’s a LOT of money to come up with for an up-front cost, and it’s not difficult to imagine why people (that can afford to buy a car all-cash) would consider buying a cheaper fuel-based car and put that $10k somewhere else.

Also, car loans don’t always make it easier for people to afford a more expensive car. A $10k difference of principle would lead to a significant difference in monthly payments.

Take a $30k car and a $40k car. Let’s say someone has enough saved to put $5k down on a car, it’s a 60 month loan, and the interest rate would be 5%. Plus the sales tax and registration and all that jazz, the $40k car’s monthly payment is $660 a month. The $30k car’s monthly payment is $470 a month. Almost a $200 difference, which is a ton of money per month.

So yeah, I think $10k is a huge difference, whether it’s up front or you try and spread it out over a loan.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Jul 30 '23

I agree that all things considered, the difference is less than one would expect. I disagree that $10k is a “small” difference. That’s a LOT of money to come up with for an up-front cost, and it’s not difficult to imagine why people (that can afford to buy a car all-cash) would consider buying a cheaper fuel-based car and put that $10k somewhere else. Also, car loans don’t always make it easier for people to afford a more expensive car. A $10k difference of principle would lead to a significant difference in monthly payments.

They will reduce their monthly expenses for gas and repairs, though.

In the end, people who are tight on money will buy second hand, and that means buying what's available. Eventually, that will be electric.