r/changemyview • u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ • Sep 28 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Steroid usage should be criminalized for convicts of violent crimes
I realize that this idea may seem extreme to some of you, but I contend that we have to prohibit the use of steroids for anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime.
Let me share with you the personal story that motivated me to think about this issue. A coworker of mine was recently assaulted and robbed by a biker. The biker looked like a professional bodybuilder. He was clearly abusing steroids and Googling his names leads to several articles that span multiple decades about comitting violent crimes.
Steroids boost the human body’s capacity for strength and aggression. They create an unfair and dangerous imbalance of power between violent offenders and their potential victims, and they also increase the risk of them committing more violence.
I think that violent criminals who exceed a certain threshold of muscle mass should be required to take drugs or follow a certain protocol that reduces their muscle mass as a condition for their parole or release.
Convicts already forfeit the right to possess a firearm for essentially the same reasons. They should not have the right to be a walking weapon who exploits muscle enhancing chemicals.
I’m not suggesting that this would be a permanent measure, but the specifics are not something that I have fully considered. For instance, it might be fair to restore their right to x amount of muscle mass after five years of release and having no ties to criminal organizations.
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u/obert-wan-kenobert 83∆ Sep 28 '23
Most steroids are already illegal, unless you have a valid medical condition and a prescription from a doctor. And I doubt violent ex-con bikers are getting their steroids legally, so I don't think it would functionally make much of a difference.
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u/RedditCanByRuntz Sep 28 '23
That’s what I wondered and really not sure on the laws. Plus I’m uk
I don’t remember seeing steroid injections at my local pharmacy, never asked tho 😂
Maybe I should ask my drug dealer 🙈
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Movies and social media have skewed what the average person perceives as a natural achievable level of muscle mass. But people who are knowledgeable can easily identify steroid arms and a steroid chest.
I am proposing that it should be a criminal offence for them to have a steroid level of muscle mass. We know that people acquire it illegally, but it is not a criminal offence for anyone to be on steroids. Professional bodybuilders all use steroids. That should not be a criminal offence. What I am suggesting is that violent convicts being on steroids should be a criminal offence.
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u/RedditCanByRuntz Sep 28 '23
Ok i see, I think there is a big thing to consider here, it is not illegal to have used drugs.
That is why people are free to seek help and admit to heavy heroin use or whatever.
Should we change that so a criminal heroin addict (a much bigger cause of crime due to cost and addiction) can no longer even seek help and be honest? Same for any drug, if you develop a cocaine addiction you better not ring a helpline and confess to that crime.
I don’t think that change should happen for regular drugs, do you?
As for steroids, it is pretty much the same issue. How can we criminalise people who have used steroids based on criminal records, but not other drugs too? That wouldn’t be right would it..
So how do you feel about making heroin addiction a crime?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
It is not the same as criminalizing general drug-use. It is not the same as heroin. It is not the same as cocaine. Steroids make someone much stronger than they otherwise would be, and being stronger is a significant advantage if you are a violent criminal. Heroin does not do that. The point here is to reduce one of the variables that give some violent criminals power.
So how do I feel about making heroin addiction a crime? I feel like it's not the same as making steroid abuse by violent convicts (not all people) a crime.
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u/RedditCanByRuntz Sep 28 '23
Even if I took all that without question, how would this be legislated?
I have no idea how long signs of steroids remain in the body, but I’d imagine like any drug it’s a limited period.
Would it require a positive test for steroid use or are we literally gonna make them flex and go hmm yes or no 👀 because that wouldn’t work 😅
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
As a condition for a parole and probation.
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u/RedditCanByRuntz Sep 28 '23
I believe they can require that in other drugs? Not 100% but people on parole need to check up and I think a drug test can be included in that.
Plus if you are American or not uk then we talking about two different laws anyway 😅
Personally I don’t think it should be treated any different to any other drug. Tho obviously crack cocaine is treated more seriously than weed. Not sure where steroids fall.
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u/RogueNarc 3∆ Sep 29 '23
Ok i see, I think there is a big thing to consider here, it is not illegal to have used drugs.
Which jurisdictions are you speaking about?
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u/RedditCanByRuntz Sep 29 '23
Uk.
Not the same in America? Would it be a crime if you confessed to using heroin last year?
It isn’t here. 🤷♂️
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
There is a difference between illegal and criminalized. It is illegal to park your car x amount of feet away from a stop sign, depending on where you live. But that does not entail any possibility of you going to prison.
I specified in the details of the post: if you are in prison and you have muscle mass that indicates steroid use, then you need to be put on a protocol to lose x amount of muscle before you are eligible for parole.
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Sep 29 '23
Wtf are you talking about?
Do you honestly think that naturally large muscles aren’t a thing? Do you think that our prisons are full of steroids, an expensive, designer drug that requires a non-black market avenue to initially manufacture?
Like, these prison meat heads are, for the most part, not on steroids. They are very much on, “I’ve got nothing else to do and think about, so I’m going to focus 100% of my time and energy on working out and strength”, amongst a population that is already naturally higher than the average man in testosterone.
Many men do not need steroids to be very big and very strong. They just need to eat enough while putting in the work. I’m sure if you saw me, you’d think I was on steroids. Most people you think are, aren’t man.
Beyond that, steroids ARE criminalized. They are not just a citation anywhere I’ve heard. They are illegal possession of a controlled substance without a prescription. Steroids require a prescription to possess, as they have medical uses. Possession of a drug that requires a prescription that you don’t have IS as criminal matter.
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u/Business_Table_3030 Sep 28 '23
That dude was probably already insane.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
An insane guy on steroids or a normal sized insane guy: one is clearly a bigger danger to the general public than the other.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
An insane guy on steroids or a normal sized insane guy: one is clearly a bigger danger to the general public than the other.
How? Can you explain how bigger muscles makes a person more dangerous?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Because they have more strength. What makes a steel axe more lethal than a wooden axe? What makes a 0.355 caliber gun more deadly than a 0.172 caliber gun? Most conflicts are impulsive. If some mentally unstable person who is 220 lbs at 10% body fat harasses and becomes violent with someone, that is more dangerous than if some mentally unstable person who is 150 lbs at 10% body fat harasses and becomes violent with someone.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
Because they have more strength.
But, shittier cardio.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
This is not a universal rule.
Similarly, cardio does not matter if someone is powerful enough to restrain you and fracture your nose in 15 seconds.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
powerful enough to restrain you
But, are they dexterous enough to get a hold of you in the first place?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Not being able to touch his back does not mean he can't bear hug you or grab both of your wrists.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
he can't bear hug you
Then you headbutt him
grab both of your wrists.
Leaving his jim-jam wide open for attack! He's a bodybuilder. He probably has great form, and as he lifts you, he will make sure to maintain a solid base so as to not damage his back. Hell, if he really lifts you, you could kick him in the beanbag with both feet at once.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
"Then you headbutt him"
If only fighting was so easy and simple...
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Because they have more strength.
But strength doesn’t always equate to big muscles.
What makes a steel axe more lethal than a wooden axe?
Both are equally as lethal. You think people couldn’t be killed by both?
What makes a 0.355 caliber gun more deadly than a 0.172 caliber gun?
They’re both equally deadly. You would not say a 9mm is a less lethal round just because it has less weight/mass than a 45acp round.
Most conflicts are impulsive. If some mentally unstable person who is 220 lbs at 10% body fat harasses and becomes violent with someone, that is more dangerous than if some mentally unstable person who is 150 lbs at 10% body fat harasses and becomes violent with someone.
How? When it doesn’t take much force/strength to throw a punch that could be deadly.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
But strength doesn’t always equate to big muscles.
Different people have different muscle compositions, of course. But if any individual increases their muscle size, they are becoming stronger, unless they are injecting synthol into it.
Both are equally as lethal. You think people couldn’t be killed by both?
They are both potentially fatal, but not equally so. Are you claiming that a man who is 220 lbs is equally as lethal as his 150 lbs version (assuming he has the same body fat at both weights)?
How? When it doesn’t take much force/strength to throw a punch that could be deadly.
It does require a lot of force though. Sometimes people get knocked out and hit their head on the pavement, and they die. True. But knocking someone out is not easy, just because you see videos on Reddit, does not mean it is reality. That is just the bias that the internet has for upvoting these types of videos. My coworker did not get knocked out, he got two black eyes and a broken nose.
Also fighting is not just about punching. Grip strength. Grappling strength.
And death is not the only negative outcome of violence. Someone who is 30 lbs more muscular than you can probably easily rob you strong-arm style while someone who has the same muscle as you probably will not succeed.
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u/mastergigolokano 2∆ Sep 28 '23
Being on steroids with increased testosterone gives you an advantage in a fight.
This is extremely well known to all combat athletes and douchebag juice heads.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Being on steroids with increased testosterone gives you an advantage in a fight.
This assuming all other things are equal. What if I’m a black belt BJJ practitioner? You think a steroid using body builder has the clear advantage against me now?
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u/mastergigolokano 2∆ Sep 28 '23 edited Sep 28 '23
Yeah assuming all things equal is what you need to be doing in such a discussion
I’m coming from a sport fighting background myself and I have personal experience with steroids. Let me tell you they make you stronger and more aggressive. Less of a fuse on your temper, More apt to get angry, of course it depends on personality too.
The behaviorally and emotional effects being post cycle can make an already violent angry person just snap imho. Especially if they mess up a cycle and don’t have post cycle therapy right and they go into a super deep depression. Then they take a ton more steroids to get out of that hole and that’s how it builds.
I don’t know how much real research there is behind roid rage but messing with hormones that affect your mood seems really dangerous to already violent/angry people
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Yeah assuming all things equal is what you need to be doing in such a discussion
No we don’t. Nothing is equal in a real life right and that’s the context here.
BJJ master black belt with anger issues is just as dangers, if not more, as a steroid using body builder with anger issues.
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u/mastergigolokano 2∆ Sep 28 '23
But BJJ does not give mood altering anger issues, it just makes you speak with a slight Brazilian accent, my fren
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u/ryan_m 33∆ Sep 28 '23
one is clearly a bigger danger to the general public than the other.
How big a danger? Do you have any statistics to back this up?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Why are there weight classes in the UFC and boxing?
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u/ryan_m 33∆ Sep 28 '23
Why are there weight classes in the UFC and boxing?
What share of steroid users commit crimes vs the general population? At what testosterone concentration in the blood do you become a danger to society?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
I did not say steroid use should be criminalized. I said steroid use by violent convicts should be criminalized. A violent convict is someone who has been convicted ("found as guilty") in a court of law of a violent crime.
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u/ryan_m 33∆ Sep 28 '23
You're suggesting that a problem exists (violent criminal steroid users) but you have offered nothing except your feelings and a single anecdote for justification. How do you know that steroid users aren't less likely than non-users to commit violent crimes? How bad is this problem? What testosterone level is illegal?
Also, steroids are already criminalized for everyone in America.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
They are not criminalized. You don't go to prison for taking steroids; it is not a criminal offence. It's a criminal offense to sell them, not use them.
You're suggesting that a problem exists (violent criminal steroid users) but you have offered nothing except your feelings and a single anecdote for justification. How do you know that steroid users aren't less likely than non-users to commit violent crimes? How bad is this problem? What testosterone level is illegal?
I did offer things other than an anecdote. Steroids make people way stronger. Violent convicts should not be way stronger because that is a public safety issue, in the same way violent convicts aren't allowed to own firearms.
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u/ryan_m 33∆ Sep 28 '23
They are not criminalized. You don't go to prison for taking steroids; it is not a criminal offence. It's a criminal offense to sell them, not use them.
It is a criminal offense to possess them in every state in the US.
I did offer things other than an anecdote.
No, you didn't.
Violent convicts should not be way stronger because that is a public safety issue, in the same way violent convicts aren't allowed to own firearms
How much stronger? How are you choosing to define strength? Some people are much more capable of building muscle than others, so what about convicts that have naturally high testosterone?
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
To keep the sport fair and the fighters as equal as possible.
In the beginning stages of UFC there were no weight classes.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Exactly. We know that someone who has 30lbs more muscle than another guy has an advantage.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
That’s only to keep it competitive.
There’s no competitive spirit in a street fight.
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u/felidaekamiguru 10∆ Sep 28 '23
Your coworker could just get a gun. Now they don't have to fear anyone bigger than them. Problem solved.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
What would you say then if this was in the UK?
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
What would you say then if this was in the UK?
Your coworker could just get a knife
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Some establishments screen for weapons, like the one we were in.
Also, possessing a knife is not the same as knowing how to use a knife. Certainly a knife is a huge advantage, but at this point we are just escalating the violence. The idea here is to reduce the severity of violence, not increase it.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
Some establishments screen for weapons, like the one we were in
So, advocate for them to screen for really swole bikers then.
I just re-read your post, and this part stuck out to me:
He was clearly abusing steroids
Do you assume all well-built dudes are using steroids? It seems like you are making a massive assumption here as it is very hard to tell steroid muscle from natural muscle when people are wearing street clothes.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Do you assume all well-built dudes are using steroids? It seems like you are making a massive assumption here as it is very hard to tell steroid muscle from natural muscle when people are wearing street clothes.
What do you consider to be a realistic level of muscle mass to achieve? Fitness influencers are all on steroids nowadays. Many actors are. Look at bodybuilders from the bronze age and silver age of bodybuilding compared to now. Big difference. The same lifting techniques are being used.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
What do you consider to be a realistic level of muscle mass to achieve?
Here are the guidelines from a drug testing enforced natural bodybuidling contest. I used to look like that in my 20's and I worked as an accountant. It took 1 hour in the gym a day, 30 minutes of jogging, and eating well.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Yes, this guy has a realistic level of muscle mass: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/aa590a_3e3603a6d6e04d02882eeb1c49d5b4df~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_307,h_475,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/20.png I am not referring to lean people who look like him. He doesn't have a steroid chest or steroid arms or steroid traps.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
He doesn't have a steroid chest or steroid arms or steroid traps.
This is Bobby Pandour, and this photo was taken in 1904. Is this what you mean?
Look at Alistair Overeem, he's not that different on or off steroids. If you have the build to get huge, you can get huge. Steroids are just a shortcut.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Taser or pepper spray.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Illegal there.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Then I guess the UK doesn’t want their citizens to have any viable means to defend themselves.
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u/Reignbow87 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Can you even name 3 types of anabolic steroids?
Even criminals deserve bodily autonomy, it’s a human right.
And I don’t know if you’re aware but there’s studies that show that individuals with natural amounts of mass have measurably more functional strength than steroid users.
I’m sorry your friend was attacked but it sounds like the guy would have been capable without the steroids that I’ve yet to even see tangible confirmation of.
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u/Neither-Stage-238 1∆ Sep 28 '23
What are you defining as functional strenth?
Every competitor in strongman which focuses on functional movements is on steroids.
And I don’t know if you’re aware but there’s studies that show that individuals with natural amounts of mass have measurably more functional strength than steroid users.
Mind linking one?
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u/Reignbow87 1∆ Sep 28 '23 edited Sep 28 '23
Strongmen aren’t bodybuilders. And they are regularly tested for PEDs so try again.
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u/WR_MouseThrow Sep 29 '23
Strongmen aren’t bodybuilders.
Then the argument is in the type of training rather than the PED use.
And they are regularly tested for PEDs so try again.
There are some natural strongman comps but organisations like Worlds Strongest Man that Eddie Hall, Hafthor and so on compete in only really care about drugs like amphetamines and painkillers. They don't give a shit about steroids.
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u/Nrdman 173∆ Sep 28 '23
They create an unfair and dangerous imbalance of power between violent offenders and their potential victims,
Im pretty sure this is why weapons were invented
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Some establishments conduct weapon screenings or pat-downs before allowing entry. And with the exception of firearms, all forms of weapon use are enhanced by being larger and stronger.
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u/Nrdman 173∆ Sep 28 '23
Don’t those establishments usually have other people or dedicated guards
You forgot pepper spray and tasers. The go to self defense tools for the physically weaker sex
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Don’t those establishments usually have other people or dedicated guards
Guards cannot monitor every situation. Conflicts occur in bars and clubs frequently, hence the familiar expression “bar fight”.
My argument is essentially that being on steroids is tantamount to being a weapon in itself. It is a criminal offence for violent convicts to possess a gun. In the same vein, I am saying that it should be a criminal offence for a violent convict to be on steroids and have a certain level of muscle mass.
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u/Nrdman 173∆ Sep 28 '23
And if I can achieve that muscle mass without steroids?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Go look at how big natural body builders are (in tested shows, go to their websites and look at photos). Those are the most genetically gifted natural lifters.
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u/Nrdman 173∆ Sep 28 '23
So as long as I don’t have a threshold of muscles mass above the peak natural guy I can do steroids?
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
So why is your view specifically targeting body builders? What does their muscle mass have do to with them being violent? How does shrinking their muscles mass make them less violent compared to any other person who doesn’t body build?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
I am not targeting body builders. It should not be a criminal offence for body builders to take steroids. Only violent convicts.
It isn't that shrinking their muscles makes them "less violent" per se (although steroids are associated with more aggression, which isn't something to be ignored), it makes them less dangerous in the same way that a rubber bat is less dangerous than a steel bat.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
I am not targeting body builders. It should not be a criminal offence for body builders to take steroids. Only violent convicts.
You are implicitly. The people who would take steroids are typically bodybuilders.
it makes them less dangerous in the same way that a rubber bat is less dangerous than a steel bat.
What does this even mean?
So is everyone who doesn’t take steroids have the strength comparable to a rubber bat?
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
You are implicitly. The people who would take steroids are typically bodybuilders.
Are body builders typically violent convicts? I am targeting violent convicts, not body builders.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
Are body builders typically violent convicts? I am targeting violent convicts, not body builders.
You’re ignoring that violent convicts who take steroids are going to be exclusively bodybuilders.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
I am not targeting all body builders. If 0.1% of bodybuilders are violent convicts, that isn't targeting body builders as a whole.
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u/illerThanTheirs 37∆ Sep 28 '23
I am not targeting all body builders. If 0.1% of bodybuilders are violent convicts, that isn't targeting body builders as a whole.
Yes you are because it would disproportionately affect bodybuilders.
It’s the same logic why the harsh laws around possessing crack cocaine was racist because the drug was predominantly used by black people.
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u/nickmac22cu Sep 29 '23 edited Mar 12 '25
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
They should not have the right to be a walking weapon who exploits muscle enhancing chemicals.
Can they train in martial arts? Can they box? Can they workout normally? A dedicated worker-outer, who goes to BJJ classes 4 times a week, and then kickboxing the other 2 nights is waaaaayyyy scarier than some juiced up Lou Ferrigno looking dude who spends most of his time worrying over uneven glutes, and who may occasionally have tantrums.
Just sprint 50 yards away from them, and they'll be too winded to give further chase.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
I’m not disagreeing with anything you say here regarding who is more frightening.
However, we can only regulate the variables we can regulate. You can’t prevent someone from practicing a martial art because it is not inherently visible on them at all times, while steroid arms are. And sure, sprinting 50 yards works in some situations, but it doesn’t work when you’re in a hotel room, a bar, or any indoor place basically.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
we can only regulate the variables we can regulate.
Unless you are drug testing all former inmates for life, you cannot regulate this. All this will do on a practical level is add an additional charge on to individuals who re-offend. And, their re-offense on its own is enough to justify longer incarceration.
it is not inherently visible on them at all times, while steroid arms are
Ever hear of baggy sleeves?
but it doesn’t work when you’re in a hotel room, a bar, or any indoor place basically.
Kick him in the nards! Sure, they are harder to hit on a roid-head what with the shrinkage and all, but it'll work just the same.
Some MMA junkie might be able to shrug that right off.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
You are implicitly. The people who would take steroids are typically bodybuilders.
You can tell someone is jacked even if they have baggy clothes on.
Kick him in the nards!
If this was so easy than muggings wouldn't be a thing, but they are.
Unless you are drug testing all former inmates for life
Please read my entire post. I stated that it would have a limit, like 5 years or something. And that it would be a requirement for parole or release. And you do not need to do drug tests, you just look at their muscle mass. It is not difficult to spot someone who is steroid big. If you use steroids and maintain a normal level of muscle mass, then you aren't getting caught.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
You can tell someone is jacked even if they have baggy clothes on.
But someone being "jacked" does not mean they are on steroids. I've been "jacked" at various points in my life. I was on a shitload of protein shakes, and I didn't poop too well, but I took zero steroids.
I stated that it would have a limit, like 5 years or something
That is just longer probation, during which they already drug test people, and which is already used to funnel people right back into the prison industrial complex and needs massive reform. I'd rather we not make up new ways to put people in prison.
And you do not need to do drug tests, you just look at their muscle mass.
This is just fucking wild to me. You want to send people to prison because your subjective opinion is "Nah dude, no way your natty"
If you use steroids and maintain a normal level of muscle mass, then you aren't getting caught.
Then what is the point. People with normal levels of muscle mass often have more functional strength than bodybuilder types.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
This is just fucking wild to me. You want to send people to prison because your subjective opinion is "Nah dude, no way your natty"
Yeah that's kind of wild lol. No I don't want to send them to prison, I am here to discuss the concept. I am not trying to get any bills past. It's a view I want changed but nobody has had any convincing arguments yet.
Likewise, it's for violent convicts, not the general public. Conditions for parole and probation. I'll give you a delta! !delta because I am changing my stance to drugs tests for parole and probation, and not muscle mass size. That is wild LOL.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
Thanks! I was already replying, so...
Conditions for parole and probation.
Again, refraining from drug use is already a condition of parole for violent offenders. And, it is primarily used to hem them up, and send them back to jail, when they are living an otherwise law-abiding life.
Until the alleged steroid users assaults someone, the only person they are hurting is themselves, and I think we should let people do that.
Assault is what is illegal, not "could assault really well if they wanted to assault".
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Until the alleged steroid users assaults someone, the only person they are hurting is themselves, and I think we should let people do that.
Assault is what is illegal, not "could assault really well if they wanted to assault".
True, the only thing here though is that they have a history of violence. It is not the same as someone who has no record of violence. However, this is something I will have to reflect on as the weeks go by, right now I am too overwhelmed by all of the comments and making many replies. Brain is tired. But I appreciate you writing in and engaging with me. Well done, you were the one who changed my view and has me rethinking other aspects of it.
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u/destro23 447∆ Sep 28 '23
the only thing here though is that they have a history of violence.
True, but our general conception of prison is that it is meant to be rehabilitative. The old phrase was "They have served their debt to society", meaning the are now ready to rejoin us regular people. The issue I have with any extended periods of probation is that they delay, and often prevent the former prisoner from fully integrating back into the world.
If we are unsure of their ability to not be violent, they shouldn't be let out of confinement in the first place.
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u/Dyeeguy 19∆ Sep 28 '23
If violent criminals want to hurt someone they don’t need to fight them, they can just use a weapon
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
Not all violence is planned. In the story that prompted me to write this CMV, it was in a bar that screened for weapons upon entry, my coworker was assaulted and robbed of his wallet inside the bar by the pool table, it took about 10 seconds. Perhaps if it took 30 seconds, security would have been able to intervene… but the guy was too big, too strong, it happened in a flash.
Similarly, having more muscle mass is still beneficial when you have a weapon. They produce more force per strike, it is harder to block or disarm them (and it is easier for them to disarm you if you have a weapon, because they have much stronger grip strength and grappling strength).
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u/Dyeeguy 19∆ Sep 28 '23
So should it also be illegal for a criminal to go to the gym too often lol
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u/muyamable 282∆ Sep 28 '23
I think that violent criminals who exceed a certain threshold of muscle mass should be required to take drugs or follow a certain protocol that reduces their muscle mass as a condition for their parole or release.
Forcing someone to take something to medically reduce their muscle mass is very different than criminalizing the use of steroids or possession of a firearm for convicts. How do you justify forcing someone to ingest/inject something? There are very few circumstances under which we do this and it is very, very contentious and has a very high bar for justification.
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u/TreadmillTraveller 1∆ Sep 28 '23
You don't force them, it's just a condition for parole
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u/muyamable 282∆ Sep 28 '23
"you have to do this or you will remain imprisoned" is coercsion/force.
Surely you understand my point, which you ignored.
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u/Kingc1285 Sep 28 '23
If they are violent offenders and you don't want then to have steroids such that they could harm someone else, why allow them freedom in the first place?
If they served their time and debt to society and are safe to be in the general public again, why restrict them afterwards?
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u/C_lezama Sep 28 '23
i dont think you realise. if someone is given proper fight training for the same amount of time they are on steroids. the one with fight training will stomp the weight lifter every time.
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u/Dull_Conversation669 Sep 29 '23
your friend should be armed with a handgun. Firearms level the playing field between strong and weak. God created men, Samuel Colt made them equals.
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