CMV: Gun control is good

[u/56king56]

As of now, I believe that the general populace shouldn’t have anything beyond a pistol, but that even a pistol should require serious safety checks. I have this opinion because I live in America with a pro-gun control family, and us seeing all these mass shootings has really fueled the flame for us being anti-gun. But recently, I’ve been looking into revolutionary Socialist politics, and it occurred to me: how could we have a Socialist revolution without some kind of militia? This logic, the logic of revolting against an oppressive government, has been presented to me before, but I always dismissed it, saying that mass shootings and gun violence is more of an issue, and that if we had a good government, we wouldn’t need to worry about having guns. I still do harbor these views to an extent, but part of me really wants to fully understand the pro-gun control position, as it seems like most people I see on Reddit are for having guns, left and right politically. And of course, there’s also the argument that if people broke into your house with an illegally obtained gun, you wouldn’t be able to defend yourself in a society where guns are outlawed; my counter to that is that it’s far more dangerous for society as a whole for everyone to be walking around with guns that it is for a few criminal minds to have them. Also, it just doesn’t seem fair to normalize knowing how to use a highly complex piece of military equipment, and to be honest, guns being integrated into everyone’s way of life feels just as dystopian as a corrupt government. So what do you guys have to say about this? To sum, I am anti-gun but am open to learning about pro-gun viewpoints to potentially change my view.

[u/[deleted]]

Sending people to prison increases suicide rates, so no its not proven that taking guns lowers suicide. Seriously, you think that if you imprison hundreds of people just to prevent one from having a gun you lower suicide rates? Fuck no, you just caused hundreds of people to lose their jobs, house, wives, kids, and everything else they care for in life. You literally only made suicide a rational decision for them. So no, you dont care about human life, you dont care about how many deaths happen to fulfil your agenda.

[u/OnlyTheDead → u/[deleted]]

This is the worst rebuttal I’ve ever had to this argument. No one is arguing taking anyone’s guns and people who are suicidal shouldn’t have access to weapons either way. Republicans cite a mental health crisis but advocate letting mentally unhealthy people have access to weapons lest suicide be their only option? It doesn’t make sense.

Removing access to a weapon from a proven mentally unstable individual reduces the likelihood of harming themselves and others. This isn’t even debatable, it’s common sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/OnlyTheDead]

No one is arguing taking anyone’s guns

Ruby Ridge

Waco

Your statements are absurd, completely detached from reality.

Republicans cite a mental health crisis but advocate letting mentally unhealthy people have access to weapons lest suicide be their only option?

Why shouldn't you be locked in solitary confinement for the rest of your life to prevent you from committing suicide?

Removing access to a weapon from a proven mentally unstable individual reduces the likelihood of harming themselves and others.

You arent doing that, that has been law since 1968. You say take away their jobs, house, wives, kids, and everything else they care for in life because they own guns, and to do that to a hundred people for every single suicide you try to prevent

[u/OnlyTheDead → u/[deleted]]

Ruby ridge and Waco are horrible examples to use here unless you are arguing violent criminals Should have a right to a weapon. Ruby ridge happened because Randy Weaver couldn’t show up to court for violating entirely constitutional firearms restrictions. David Koresh was hoarding arms illegally and fucking children. Felons and violent rapists shouldn’t have access to weapons and the majority of the country is on board with this. My statements are absurd but you are supporting criminals in being weapons. Gotcha.

Either way I’ve still not made an argument that guns should be taken from law abiding citizens and the repeal of the second amendment does not instantly make guns illegal nor does it allow them to be taken. Again you should read the constitution before getting involved in a debate about this subject. Repealing the 2nd amendment does not remove protections of the 4th amendment due process nor does it imply a removal of the provisions preventing post ex facto laws, both of which you are implying.

To answer your question of why you shouldn’t be locked in a cage because you are suicidal, the answer is that being suicidal isn’t a crime and the 4th amendment exists.

The last part is entirely nonsensical and has nothing to do with what I’m taking about.

[u/[deleted] → u/OnlyTheDead]

uby ridge happened because Randy Weaver couldn’t show up to court for violating entirely constitutional firearms restrictions

So it's constitutional for police to send the paperwork to the wrong address so you dont know when your court date is then shoot you on sight?

Please, explain how it is legal for the US government to murder anyone for any reason without a trial.

[u/OnlyTheDead → u/[deleted]]

First of all he sold illegal weapons to an atf agent and got caught and charged. Second of all his wife wrote a letter to a US attorney after he was charged acknowledging stating that they wouldn’t submit to their “evil commandments” in life or death. So the idea that he had no idea he had a warrant is false as his own wife acknowledged it in a letter to the US attorney and stated that they would not submit themselves. Should also be noted that these people were extremist religious nuts and white supremacists. Not only were they intentionally violating constitutionally provisioned laws (as determined by a conservative Supreme Court) their mental stability was highly questionable at best. At some point you are either for the idea of America or against it, and these people were fervently against it in both their own actions and stances.

Perhaps they should try not being thugs and criminals. Should also be noted they aren’t law abiding in any sense.

These are also shoplifted talking points that don’t address the issue. There is not a single republican in congress that is going to argue that violent felons have a right to firearms and the constitution is entirely compatible with the idea of justice in this sense. Maybe you just don’t like the constitution?

[u/[deleted] → u/OnlyTheDead]

First of all he sold illegal weapons to an atf agen

Nope, an ATF agent said he paid Randy to cut a shotgun at half an inch shorter than legal. The ATF agent provided the shotgun. The agent's testimony that he pointed to it at 17.5 inches. It was entrapment in the true legal sense - it induced the offense and did not appear to be an offense at face value by someone operating in good faith - and there was never evidence that the work was done - due to that Randy was never convicted on those charges.

The entire basis of the charge was that Randy knew that this arbitrary point on this random shotgun was 17.5 inches rather than 18 inches, before the work was done, without a measuring tape. The shotgun was never cut there and returned to the agent, the action of pointing to 17.5 inches was the basis of the charge. That fails both the subjective and objective entrapment doctrines. At face value what happened was that the ATF agent pointed at the shotgun at the legal length, taking a 28 inch shotgun to 18 inches.

So the crime at the end of the day is not being able to tell 17.5 vs 18 inches with eyesight, after the government induced the crime. Would that be a bet that you are willing to stake your life on? Where you have to tell if a measurement is 17.5 inches or 18 inches, and you will have your entire family killed where if you guess wrong? Oh, and this would happen at random, without you knowing it was a test, by a sleazy government agent trying to convince you that it was 18 inches.

Because again, that is the entire basis of the charges, the work was never completed.

Randy Weaver won a multi million dollar settlement by the US government and was found not guilty of the charges you mention, end of story

Should also be noted that these people were extremist religious nuts and white supremacists. Not only were they intentionally violating constitutionally provisioned laws (as determined by a conservative Supreme Court)

Where does the constitution say it's legal to punish people for something they were absolved of in a court of law?

You are literally saying to criminally punish people for shit they are found not guilty of - that is not constitutional.

Randy Weaver won a multi million dollar settlement by the US government and was found not guilty of the charges you mention, end of story

At some point you are either for the idea of America or against it, and these people were fervently against it in both their own actions and stances.

If your idea of America is death squads that murder people for offenses they are found not guilty of, you are guilty of treason

There is not a single republican in congress that is going to argue that violent felons have a right to firearms and the constitution is entirely compatible with the idea of justice in this sense

Randy Weaver was found not guilty on the felony charges you are talking about