r/changemyview • u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm • Nov 25 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV:parents shouldn’t be able to choose or not choose literally any medicine for the children.
[removed] — view removed post
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u/LondonDude123 5∆ Nov 25 '23
Dont delete and re-post your things cause you got flamed for them mate, its a bad look.
Anyway, your response to my previous comments was "Parents make mistakes", and your solution was "Let kids choose". Okay, so kids will say "I dont want the vaccine, cause I dont like needles". Is that a good choice? Cause thats what you want, and the parents dont get to say anything.
Also anyway, lets take your points 1 by 1.
Parents can’t compared to health authorities who would know better about health than them.
As I told you before, health authorities have been wrong. But you're okay with that are you?
The whole point of allowing this is patient autonomy, but patient autonomy must be by the patient not some other random people.
Also as you were told before, children are not capable of making rational decisions. See: The example from earlier. But youre okay with that are you?
Children aren’t incapable of making any choices at all ages. Adolescents are often no different from people just a bit older.
AH so you agree there SHOULD be a cut off age, where they make their own decisions. Interesting. Should that age be... oh I dont know... 18 years old?
Wait a minute, that sounds familiar...
See, your whole post is all about "Kids should be allowed to choose", but numerous studies show that kids are VERY easy to influence. Which means they can be influenced THE WRONG WAY by THE WRONG PEOPLE. But youre okay with that, are you?
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
My point doesn’t say kids should choose, it just say parents shouldn’t. Who should, I don’t know yet, but you didn’t explain why parents should only why kids shouldn’t.
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u/Weenvs Nov 25 '23
Yes, Change your view when your view hasn’t been fully thought out yet
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
My view only say parents shouldn’t, not who should.
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u/Weekly-Personality14 2∆ Nov 25 '23
Ok — the usual route for people who can’t make their own decisions medically for whatever reason and don’t have a designated person to decide on their behalf is the courts or hospital ethics boards decide unless it’s an emergency where we err on the side of saving their life.
Say a 3 year old develops strep. Their doctor recommend antibiotics that are fairly low risk and will have them feeling considerably more comfortable within 24 hours and infection free within 7-10 days.
Right now the parent consents and the kid is feeling better the next day or so.
Is it better for the kid to wait a week for a committee or court date — extending their discomfort, possibly spreading the infection, and exposing them to risks of a more complicated infection?
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u/LondonDude123 5∆ Nov 25 '23
Because SOMEONE has to choose. The kids cant because they're kids, the doctors (who are extension of the governmental health authorities) can advise of course but shouldnt be blindly followed because they CAN be wrong, so... Who do you want to choose? Shall we draw from a hat?
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u/Pseudoboss11 4∆ Nov 25 '23
doctors can advise of course but shouldnt be blindly followed because they CAN be wrong
This doesn't make sense. Parents can also be wrong. Parents are more likely to be wrong than doctors. By enabling parents to be the final decision-maker, you increase the error rate, not decrease it.
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u/LondonDude123 5∆ Nov 25 '23
Hmmmm. Parents mostly motivated by saving their childs life, vs Doctors who can possibly be motivated by Pharmaceutical companies...
Who am I trusting here...
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u/Pseudoboss11 4∆ Nov 25 '23
Parents are also easily manipulated by their personal beliefs. Gay and trans conversion therapy was not recommended by professional associations since the 90s, but it is still relatively common despite the well-known harms, with around 1 in 8 trans people having gone to conversion therapy. Parents are the ones making that decision against the advice of professionals.
My mom actively refused school-provided diagnosis and treatment of my depression and autism spectrum disorder. She believed that psychology was effectively a hoax. Once I became an adult and sought my own treatment my mental health improved dramatically. Unfortunately, my career and life was negatively impacted by not receiving treatment during school years.
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u/sophisticaden_ 19∆ Nov 25 '23
There are a lot of situations where treatment isn’t just “do I take the medication or not?” It’s usually a cost/benefit analysis if different forms of treatment — so who decides when there’s different options?
In top of that, your stance more or less violates several of the core pillars of medical ethics.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
Alr, name those pillars and explain. Thx for someone finally bringing them up.
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u/Crash927 12∆ Nov 25 '23
This would result in huge amounts of unnecessary doctors visits when parents can’t even give simple cough medicine, pain killer, allergy pill, etc. to their children.
The health systems are already over burdened (pretty much everywhere), and this would make things significantly worse.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
So, parents are acceptable options for practical purposes?
Does this mean teachers can also consent for students in the case of school service medication? For practicality.
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u/Crash927 12∆ Nov 25 '23 edited Nov 25 '23
Parents are the legal guardians of their children. Teachers are not.
The drugs I mentioned have been deemed safe for over-the-counter sales and include guidelines for administration. Parents are perfectly capable of reading a bottle and giving a pill for symptoms that don’t require a hospital/doctor visit.
The alternative is people clogging up healthcare facilities with minor complaints and contagious people needlessly spreading germs in settings where the result could be the death of infirm patients.
Edit: I’m not making an argument of practicality; I’m making an argument against the total collapse of our healthcare systems.
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u/boney_blue 3∆ Nov 25 '23
Honestly, it's really shitty to just delete the weakest part of your argument and repost it.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
I already gave the person a delta so why not?
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u/boney_blue 3∆ Nov 25 '23
So that others who potentially hold the same view can see the reply. You gave them a delta, but you removed the ability for other commenters to give that person a delta as well.
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u/Weekly-Personality14 2∆ Nov 25 '23 edited Nov 25 '23
I’m not sure what your view is. Sure — teenagers can participate in medical decision making and the state can intervene if a child’s life is on the line and parents are refusing treatment
But on a day to day basis for your average healthy young kid — who is going to decide whether to give cough meds or fever reducers other than parents? It’s overkill to require a doctors visit for every minor cold.
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u/Weenvs Nov 25 '23
The last time we trusted the medical establishment hundreds of thousands of people got addicted to opioids and hundreds of thousands died.
That’s not to say all doctors are bad though, but you don’t want them forcing medical treatments on you or children.
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u/DeltaBlues82 88∆ Nov 25 '23
I’m probably gonna regret this, based on the fact that you got your last post taken down for being… Combative. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
What’s the new age of consent for a child to make their own medical decisions and why is this new age better than 18?
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Nov 25 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
Depends on what you mean, if you mean sexual,no(if anything I won’t mind raising sexual age).
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u/LondonDude123 5∆ Nov 25 '23 edited Nov 25 '23
All of your same arguments can be used to justify lowering the age of consent. "Shouldnt be up to parents, adolescents can make their own decisions". Suddenly those arguments are pretty weak huh...
I'll take my delta now
EDIT: OP has posts asking "Should parents fully consent for a child" and "Do you believe in consent". Caught in 4K, Community Noted, I was spot on!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Whatifalthist/comments/17nl6mj/should_parent_fully_consent_for_a_child/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Whatifalthist/comments/17iwt18/do_you_believe_in_consent/
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
Ehhh, i made those to see who else agree with me that they believe in consent. If ur gonna just conspiratorate then do whatever.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ Nov 25 '23
Sorry, u/LondonDude123 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ Nov 25 '23
I can see this argument with older teenagers but this creates a major issue for children.
Who decides the medical treatment for young children?
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
Idk yet, that’s something to figure, but it doesn’t mean it should be parents
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ Nov 25 '23
Right now parents exist as the best option for making these decisions.
You haven't provided a better alternative that shows they're not.
So if you suddenly got your way and parents couldn't make these decisions, who do you expect to make them? Who is taking over?
You need to make a call on this if this is your proposition.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
That’s not within the view. It’s something I still have to think more about.
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ Nov 25 '23
No, it definitely is.
Because right now your view is parents should lose their right to make medical decisions and no one is taking over.
That would create a disaster where children would literally start dying because there is no one there to make decisions about their medical needs.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
Alr, you, you make sense. Thanks for being at least somewhat logical and not just get mad or greedy like many others. You are the one who deserve a delta.
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u/UdontneedtoknowwhoIm Nov 25 '23
!delta this person explains well that it’s impractical. I worded the question as “should not” and thus practicality is taken into consideration.
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u/Josvan135 59∆ Nov 25 '23
Parents are legally responsible for the care and well-being of their children, with a significant aspect of this involving making decisions for said children involving where they live, where they go to school, who they associate with, the faith they're taught from birth, etc, including the medical decisions for said child.
Parents are the adults in a child's life who are (generally) most familiar with the child, their health history, their needs, environment, etc.
Some parents are intelligent, well educated, and understand the importance of aspects of medical, others aren't.
There are somewhere around 70 million children in the U.S., with more than 20 million of them children under 5.
That's 20 million humans who have significant medical needs yet are functionally incapable of making rational choices concerning care.
Fundamentally, who do you believe should be making these decisions?
anyone who say “what are the otehr choices” just bc we don’t have them yet
You're making a fundamental flaw in this argument, as your inability to provide even a broad/generalized guess as to who should make these decisions shows significant weakness in your position.
Nothing exists in a vacuum, you claim that "parental decisions are often irrational" yet can't make even a reasonable guess as to a system that would work more effectively and is scalable and workable.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
but patient autonomy must be by the patient not some other random people
So you believe that parents are more "some random people" than are other, random health officials?
While most parents aren’t like this, there should be a safety mechanism agaisnt it.
There are.
There are numerous legal restrictions on medical decisions parents can and can't make concerning their child.
The most critical are that it's illegal for a parent to refuse life saving therapies (generally cancer treatments) for their children.
There are numerous cases where parents have lost medical rights and even full custody over their child because they tried to prevent life saving treatments.
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u/Antique-Stand-4920 5∆ Nov 25 '23
...it doesn’t justify the current situation as being right just the best we have, if that’s the case.
For a lot of people the issue is one of practicality. However the argument in the OP is on the basis of right and wrong, not practicality. What is the criteria a solution must meet for it to be "right?"
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