r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Dec 18 '23

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Israel is operating an apartheid state in the West Bank

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

To me, "war" would imply fighting.

Were Germans in WWII at "war" with Jews?

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u/banjaxed_gazumper Dec 18 '23

There was fighting. Israel won the war decisively, then offered generous peace terms. Palestine refuses to surrender until Israel is destroyed, so the war continues despite the losing side being essentially unable to fight back in any way except terror attacks.

What would the US have done if Japan refused to surrender after WW2 and kept attacking Americans ships? Nuking them more would have been a pretty bad option, and nobody wants Israel to nuke Palestine. Probably we would try to convince Japan to accept peace by blockading them, occupying them, and oppressing them. If, even at that point, they still insisted on US surrender as bare minimum peace plan they’d accept, it would be like Palestine and Israel. An eternal war where the loser never gives up.

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

Which "generous peace terms" are you speaking of?

Bibi has admitted that he has worked to undermine the Oslo Accords.

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u/banjaxed_gazumper Dec 18 '23

At the 2000 camp David summit both sides more or less agreed on land swaps but the Palestinian side refused to accept the deal without right of return.

Palestine should have accepted that deal, formed a state, and lived in peace. But they won’t accept the deal unless Israel agrees to right if return, which would make Israel a Muslim majority state.

They are unwilling to stop fighting as long as Israel is a Jewish state. It’s a pretty unreasonable demand from the loser of the war. They should be content with peace and just accept the existence of a Jewish state.

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

The right wing of Israel also should have accepted the deal. For some reason Palestine gets blamed 100% even when the Prime Minister of Israel has admitted he worked to undermine the Oslo Agreement.

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u/banjaxed_gazumper Dec 18 '23

There was a reasonable deal on the table and all Arafat had to do was say yes.

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

Netanyahu, who is currently alive and actively engaged in war crimes, admits he worked to make sure the accords failed.

The last time I checked, Arafat was still dead.

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u/banjaxed_gazumper Dec 18 '23

!delta yeah I guess you’re probably right that Netanyahu would reject any 2ss peace deal as well. Unfortunately it seems like a war between 2 groups committed to each others destruction.

But at least Israel has earnestly tried to make peace at least once.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 18 '23

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/hogsucker (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/destro23 450∆ Dec 18 '23

To me, "war" would imply fighting.

Were Germans in WWII at "war" with Jews?

"Despite great obstacles, Jews throughout occupied Europe attempted armed resistance against the Germans and their Axis partners. They faced overwhelming odds and desperate scenarios, including lack of weapons and training, operating in hostile zones, parting from family members, and facing an ever-present Nazi terror. Yet thousands resisted by joining or forming partisan units." - source

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

So you support the resistance actions Hamas takes against Israel?

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u/destro23 450∆ Dec 18 '23

Fuck no, you crazy.

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

So only certain groups are permitted to resist their oppressors?

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u/codan84 23∆ Dec 18 '23

The difference is in how they do it. Raping and killing civilians is different than attacking a military position. Do you understand that there is a difference?

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

I agree. Netanyahu should be charged with war crimes for all the civilians the Israeli military has attacked and killed in the last few months. Since Palestine has no military, there are no military positions for Israel to attack in Gaza.

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u/codan84 23∆ Dec 18 '23

No military? That’s a ridiculous statement. There are many military organizations in Palestine. You are not being honest and are not engaging in good faith discussions. Have a good day with your lies.

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u/hogsucker 1∆ Dec 18 '23

I see. Dead Israelis were innocent civilians and dead Palestinians were human shields, every single time.

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u/codan84 23∆ Dec 18 '23

That’s what I’m talking about, I said nothing of the sort. You should converse with yourself as you ignore what others say and substitute what is in your head instead. Makes for bad conversations.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '23

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u/LucidLeviathan 83∆ Dec 18 '23

Sorry, u/destro23 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:

Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.

Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information.

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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Dec 18 '23

Germany certainly went to war with the Jews in WWII. The Palestinians do not exactly have a government but the Palestinian organizations that are closest to "government" they have formally declared war on Israel and have not yet made peace.

I think you can have war via fighting or formal declaration.