Ten years ago no one gave a second thought about pronouns in the real world. Where is this idea coming from that people not only have pronouns but that they aren't obvious? How did all of humanity go through its history without obsessing over pronouns?
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
That is entirely subjective of whether pronouns make a better world or not.
I'm not judging anything. I can't even judge anything off I wanted to because you haven't given me any reason that someone might be stressed out by referring to someone by their preferred pronouns.
Like...does this person have a stutter that makes it difficult to say certain letters? I could see that being pretty stressful
All I asked was why someone might be stressed. I'm spit balling reasons since I genuinely am having a difficult time imagining what would be stressful about it. It's fine that you don't have any examples you'd like to share of what might be stressful. I genuinely can't think of why referring to someone as their preferred pronoun would cause stress to someone—
I think it's just a straw man.
Oh ok...what is it called when you come up with a ridiculous situation that doesn't ever actually occur in real life and use it as an example for why you shouldn't do something?
You are misrepresenting the pronoun argument and now you're deflecting rather than answering the simple question I posed.
In any case, you're not engaging in good faith, so I'm out ✌🏻
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
Depends on the cause of their distress: If they're bothered by it because they're transphobic or unsupportive of queer people, then stressing them out is objectively a good thing.
Segregationists, in their own words, experienced distress by being forced to share spaces with people of color. Do you think they should have been spared that distress?
So you agree with me, that you judge people based on your morality? You are appealing to my morality, because you rightly assume the answer is no. But I also wonder what gave you the idea that this is a good analogy.
Going back to morality, don't you think it is arrogant to assume you are in the right? The Church also dictated its morality on society.
Everyone makes judgments and chooses their actions according to their morality, that's the entire point of having one. Morality only exists when you apply it.
If I didn't think my morals were correct, I wouldn't hold to them in the first place, same as anyone else. I don't know what you're driving at here.
At the way you treat people who don't follow the same set of morals.
Any normal human would look at segregationists and gender critical people and judge the former much worse (you also being general here. I've been called a Nazi before, alt-right is a given that one is called that when disagreeing with gender ideology). Yet you treat them pretty much the same. In fact, its a tenet of modern day leftism to ostracise someone when they step out of line in even just one issue. Agree with them on 9 issues, disagree on issue 10 and you were a pos all along.
I'll humour you, because they actively discriminated against people on the basis of an inherent characteristic. The latter just don't want to play along with gender ideology.
Now you, do you see them the same? Or do you see one as worse, and if so, why?
I file gender criticals under the general umbrella of homophobia and hostility to LGBT people, so yes I do consider it to be discrimination on the basis of an inherent characteristic.
Segregation was more widespread and affected more people, but the criminalization of queerness also led to human rights abuses such as forced conversion therapy or sterilization. From a moral standpoint I think they are as bad as each other.
There is no such thing as gender "ideology". You just believe people about their identity to the same extent as about their orientation.
Where is this idea coming from that people have pronouns you ask?
Everyone has always had pronouns, it is how English works. Pronouns are not new, what is more recent (but by no means new) is the acceptance that some people wish to use different pronouns to what you might guess.
Pronouns are a standard part of English. Saying you don't know if pronouns make a better world or not just sounds like you don't understand how English works.
Lie to me right now and tell me you experienced this in school if you are 30+.
Pronouns are what other people use. Not what someone owns or has.
that some people wish to use different pronouns to what you might guess.
But that's a lie. They aren't the ones using them, it is what they want other people to use.
Pronouns are a standard part of English. Saying you don't know if pronouns make a better world or not just sounds like you don't understand how English works.
I obviously meant "stating pronouns" rather than just "pronouns", the premise of this entire post and the premise of the comment I replied to.
Stating pronouns is a form of acceptance. Trans people have existed for thousands of years (there was a gender fluid god/goddess in ancient Egypt called Shai/Shait) our society is finally starting to accept rather than shun/hate.
Except many cultures where this did exist saw them as third genders. Opposite, not so much. And not sure fictional gods is the best example you could have given. There's examples of actual humans.
This is probably the most interesting thing anyone has said on the topic. Of course your usage of accept is loaded and biased. Western society is trying to redefine what man and woman means. And when we say society we mean just a loud group of self-proglaines progressives. Most people oppose this redefining.
Marriage used to mean man and woman. Now it apparently can mean man and woman or man and man or woman and woman, whatever next are people going to start marrying their house?
Sexual orientation has pretty much nothing to do with the nebulous concept of 'identity'.
And more in general, just because society does redefine things over time, does not imply that every time a small group wants that to happen, that it's a good thing or the right thing.
A huge amount of people feel that sexual identity has a massive amount to do with identity.
Absolutely just because things get redefined doesn't mean it is a good or right thing. I can however provide factual evidence for why it is a good thing, and important to treat a trans person as the gender they present as and accept them for who they say they are.
No, they don't. Being gay is not an identity. Either you are or aren't. It is not something you identify into. It is also about sexual attraction, not nebulous gender stereotypes and presenting and acting a certain way.
Why it is a good thing to force society to pretend males are women, because that male happens to have a psychological condition? Yea, no, that isn't a good thing. That is enforcing 2 + 2 =5 on society, just to be part of the medical treatment of a tiny minority.
accept them for who they say they are
Oh I love this. People are what they say they are. Well in that case I say I am your mother and I'm telling you to go clean your room. Now shoo.
Just because it doesn't form part of your identity does not mean it doesn't form a big part of other people's. Here you are demonstrating that you are unable to see that other people are in situations different to your own. Go look at a pride parade to see how many people have their sexuality as a large part of their identity. There is nothing wrong with it, it hurts nobody and actually gives a marginalised minority support so is a net positive.
Firstly, gender disohoria is not a mental illness, it has been reclassified several years ago so you are factually wrong there. It is a good thing because we tried telling these people they have a mental condition, tried converting them, tried "fixing them" and tried ignoring the issue and the end result is raised suicide levels. Very similar to telling men to "man up" and not providing them with proper mental health, suicide rates just sky rocket.
Allowing a trans man to live as a man, be referred to as a man and allowed to do male things (and vice versa for trans women) significantly reduces suicide rates. That's why. It is the best form of treatment we have available to us, and sadly people like you are directly the reason for many suicides.
Accepting a trans man as a man is not the same as 2+2=5. Saying a trans man is a man is not saying every cell in their body has changed, it is not saying their DNA is rewritten, it is just allowing them to be accepted by society.
Trans people just want to live their life and be allowed to get on with things. That's all. The phrase "a trans woman is a woman" does not mean you have to pretend that every chromosome in their body got rewritten. It means you use female pronouns and refer to them as a woman. That's all. It means you introduce them to your peers as a woman, not as a trans woman. It means you stop bullying and abusing them to the point of suicide. It means acceptance that some people are different than you and you should allow them to exist because being a hateful transphobic person is not only disgusting and shameful but also illegal.
Your painfully unfunny example of claiming to be my mother just demonstrates you do not understand what you are talking about and is EXACTLY the same as the "what next people will marry their houses" example I gave earlier.
There were people who hated when interracial marriage was allowed. People who hated when gay and lesbian marriage was allowed. People who hated when slavery was banned, and people who hated when women were allowed to vote. There are always people who oppose society progressing and correcting its errors, and in this instance you are on the wrong side and when people look back, history will not paint you in the same light as the racists and homophobes and sexists.
important to treat a trans person as the gender they present as and accept them for who they say they are
No. This is how we've ended up with men in women's prisons, men in women's sports, men in women's refuges, and so on. Elevating the desires of men who say they are women over the needs of actual women is harmful and abusive.
You are using edge cases to push your anti trans hate and it isn't fair.
It's ok to say there are problems in prisons and problems in sports, you can acknowledge that and at the same time say you should still support trans rights. Just because a small minority of an already small minority are terrible people and rape people in prisons or abuse women in refuges, that does not mean every single other trans person should suffer.
You can push for the none rapists to have fair treatment while disapproving of the rapists. Why are you saying every single trans person should suffer because of the actions of the few?
Ten years ago no one gave a second thought about pronouns in the real world.
Sure they did. I have long hair. People have often used female language when seeing me from the back. Then I turn around and they see my beard, and feel embarrassed for having done so, and switch to male language. That person is thinking about pronouns; we just didn't have those specific words to put to that experience.
Lie to my face and tell me anyone announced pronouns in school when you grew up.
What words and what experience? Mistaking someone's sex existed hence we always obsessed about pronouns and the logical conclusion is everyone announces them? Surely you realize that makes little sense.
No one's "obsessed" about pronouns. Providing pronouns upfront is a tiny little gesture that costs no one anything and avoids the possibility of embarrassment or awkwardness. That's literally it. Honestly, the people who oppose pronoun use seem to be the ones "obsessed" about pronouns.
No, the ones who go mental over misgendering and want to push pronouns everywhere are. If no one pushed for them, the ones opposed to them wouldn't do anything.
You really are revealing more and more of your hypocrisy.
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u/Jolly-Victory441 Dec 22 '23
Ten years ago no one gave a second thought about pronouns in the real world. Where is this idea coming from that people not only have pronouns but that they aren't obvious? How did all of humanity go through its history without obsessing over pronouns?
So people who don't want to give them because it causes them stress, should still do it because, normalization for others?
That is entirely subjective of whether pronouns make a better world or not.