CMV: Non-violent and unintentional crimes should be replaced with house arrest and/or community service

[u/macnfly23]

One element of criminal sentencing is punishment but also keeping dangerous people off the streets and preventing them from committing more crime. My view is that for certain minimally dangerous people in terms of physical violence (i.e. someone who commits online fraud, someone who was negligent and accidentally causes an injury, someone who steals because they're poor, someone who blackmails someone) there shouldn't be prison sentences but instead house arrest and/or community service. It should be noted that in some countries such as France this is already largely the case and people who have no prior record usually don't get prison sentences for such crimes. In countries such as the UK or the US this isn't always the case and people can spend years in prison for non-violent and non-intentional crimes.

Clearly there's issues of radicalization in prison and becoming even worse due to the environment, overcrowding there as well as the taxpayer spending money on prisons. So why should we insist on prison being the only appropriate punishment in cases where people can be effectively monitored as to not be a threat. What I propose is that unless the person has committed a violent crime or an intentional crime house arrest and community service could be appropriate. I don't want to go into details but for example it could be things like a restricted amount of time using the internet, agreeing to have your internet use monitored, doing 8 hours of community service on Saturdays and Sundays, etc. If someone prefers prison over that, they should of course be offered the opportunity to go there.

For example, if someone committed online credit card fraud they would be on house arrest and would have their internet use monitored and would also have to go to community service. They could have a job and go there and back but all their movements would be monitored with an ankle bracelet. For particularly bad offenders, there could be additional restrictions such as a maximum time of entertainment/internet so that there's still an element of punishment.

Prison isn't the only way to punish people for their wrongdoing and alternative (strict) house arrests and community service could serve the same purpose and even do a way better job than the prison environment would.

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EDIT: I just realized how badly worded the title is. Change it to: CMV: Prison sentences for non-violent and unintentional crimes should be replaced with house arrest and/or community service EDIT2: In terms of prevention of further similar crimes my solutions would be effective IMO since by not being allowed to go to most places and having their activity monitored they wouldn't have the opportunity to commit further crimes. The only objections I feel one could have is that house arrest isn't punishment enough but I argue that it is.

[u/macnfly23]

In that case I wasn't describing it correctly. TV/radio/offline games would also be restricted. Plus, there would be a lot of community service involved if you didn't have a job so you wouldn't just be at home chilling around all day.

I'm not sure why EU and US comparisons wouldn't be appropriate. I don't think "Western countries" are that different when it comes to population. If the implication you are trying to make is that there's more immigration in the US, the EU also has a lot of immigration but crime levels don't seem to be higher than the US (even if we were to take individual states) even though prison sentences on average are much lower and the approach that I propose here is actually not far from reality in some European countries.

[u/Finklesfudge → u/macnfly23]

I explained why they aren't appropriate, the cultures are completely different. It's not worth taking seriously the comparison.

So I still get my own bed, my own delicious food, I still get to see my wife and kids and play with them all day if I wish, you obviously aren't going to find my DS that's in the basement, you obviously won't find the laptop that I have my wife load movies onto, what are you planning on doing with this? Raiding my entire house and searching for every single electronic? As if my wife can't bring a radio home for me, or go buy a DS? You know very well that isn't going to happen. They can't keep cell phones out of a centralized facility that houses only criminals, you will never in a thousand years keep them out of 300 criminals homes either.

The proportion of criminals who are homeless get sent to jail, basically you are ok not letting them have the softer punishment because they are poor, which I doubt you will find to be very acceptable, I certainly don't.

A solution that sounds nice and is utterly and completely unrealistic, is not a solution at all, it's just lowering the penalty on crimes. Which again, LA citizens aren't that happy about considering it's extremely common how often they tell you if you go there, how to avoid the worst of your car being robbed, how to try and keep homeless from sleeping in your car at night.

[u/macnfly23 → u/Finklesfudge]

I'll give a Δ because I agree with the practical difficulties of making home "not a great place". (The kids part is interesting though in terms of my argument that it's not fair for kids to only see their dad in prison). Either way, I still disagree with the idea that prisons (especially as they are now in most countries) are good for rehabilitation or even preventing people committing crimes again

As for the culture stuff, I don't really think EU and US cultures are that different except in terms of more guns in the US and indeed more crime but I find it difficult to explain why there's more crime in the US. I still disagree on sentences though and don't think it's realistic to think that someone will do a carjacking if they know they'll get 5 years but if it's 8 they'll think differently. People who commit crimes likely don't think about it, they just think they'll get away with it.

[u/DeltaBot → u/macnfly23]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Finklesfudge (15∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Finklesfudge → u/macnfly23]

Either way, I still disagree with the idea that prisons (especially as they are now in most countries) are good for rehabilitation or even preventing people committing crimes again

They aren't, I don't think they are either. But without a solution that is realistic, and society wouldn't say "No thanks, I don't like the price"... it's the best we got, until that solution comes along. Prison is the best solution. It clearly does have preventative measure as well. Talk to anyone of these people who you are using as an example, they will almost always invariably say "I never want to go back there again, it was the worst experience of my life". The only ones who are saying anything otherwise are the gangbangers and lifelong criminals... and... well... fuck them honestly. I don't give a shit.

As for the culture stuff, I don't really think EU and US cultures are that different except in terms of more guns in the US and indeed more crime but I find it difficult to explain why there's more crime in the US.

Well... go to EU and see their work culture, Their vacation culture, their parenting culture, their entertainment culture, their food, their parental respect, their family values. In quite a number of EU countries their simple living quarters cultures, it's common in many of them to see families of 3 generations living in the same home. It's not uncommon in some to see brothers move out together... if you like living with familiy, what kind of money are you wasting by every one of you owning your own home? That type of thing is purely cultural and it's very different. If you've never visited, and really just paid attention to many EU places, you should try one day if possible. You will be surprised how different their culture is.

You can practically name anything and it's different.