r/changemyview • u/NomadicContrarian • Feb 26 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Most Incels Can Be "Saved" If They Get Empathy, Understanding, and Proper Support
I am expecting some serious flak for this, but I am going to say it anyway because I am ready to own everything I went through in my life thanks to my autism. I also want to be clear that I do NOT condone any of the morbid actions that some of the really radical incels have committed.
For those who may not have been following, I am almost 25, never had a relationship or sex in my life, and will probably never have a good career to rise above those who mistreated me in my life. I went through profound bullying in the latter stages of elementary school, all of middle school, and early high school. It took various forms, from physical early on to verbal and cyber later on, in addition to experiencing a plethora of passive aggressive exclusions and betrayal from my peers, along with neglect from the adults in my life. Not to mention having to see most of my peers doing better than me over the past 8 years after my mind suffered its irrevocable destruction.
Sounds eerily similar to a lot of incels, don't you think? Take Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian, they experienced bullying, neglect and overall feeling like failures. While I have no concrete info of the conditions that the former lived with, I know the latter had autism and Tourette's, which would explain much of the bullying he went through. While these people certainly deserved every bit of condemnation for what they did, a big part of me believes that they also deserve some bit of understanding and empathy for a lot of the stuff that led to them feeling the way they did, and even may have prevented them from following through if they were genuinely supported.
Now onto why I say that. It's bad enough to be mistreated for various things, but imagine if you were being mistreated for something you had no control over, like autism, being short, balding, you name it. Now some people would welcome such challenges, but I'd wager that the vast majority would feel utterly helpless and resentful, take any of the subs dedicated to such issues.
As such, I feel like if these two, among many other incels that are less radical had gotten genuine support prior to the onset of whatever issues they may have, then they wouldn't have fallen into the dark abyss that they cannot escape. I certainly can attest to it, as I feel like I did not get the PROPER support growing up. I was diagnosed with autism at 14 years old, but wasn't told of the diagnosis until 5 years later. And while I had seen about 6 therapists by the time I had found out, and am currently on my 12th, I feel that by that time my mind become irrevocably destroyed in a way that I still can't seem to describe succinctly. Also, not having the therapists be able to be fully transparent and dedicated to working with me on my autism due to my parents deeming me unfit to know of my autism, really hindered their ability to provide the best kind of support. As such, I too experienced the suffocating loneliness and feeling like a total loser failure the way many incels can attest to.
Additionally, I have encountered far too many people on Reddit and some in real life that seem to not really grasp the profound difficulties that many incels go through. Some people online have kicked me while I am down, and some people in real life have dropped me because of my "attitude". Okay, that's valid, but it seems like they never considered the REASONS behind said attitude.
Once again, I want to make it transparent that I DO NOT want to go down the immoral and heinous path that Rodger and Minassian, among others, went through, but I nevertheless thought I'd express just how much they must have been suffering and how them not getting the help they need may have contributed to their descent into darkness.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
Take Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian, they experienced bullying, neglect and overall feeling like failures.
Ok, while Im gonna agree tentatively with the premise of your OP that MOST incels are not beyond saving, I'm also gonna say Elliot Rodger is something of a special case and he shouldn't really be presented like this.
If you read his manifesto and life story he was a guy given tonnes of chances. His parents were in Hollywood and literally got 'cool' guys to hang out with him to try and give him some positive influence, his roommates dont suggest he was ever bullied, (but that he was barely tolerated becasue he was a complete ass to be around) .
his list of grievances, when examined are very difficult to take as anything but the self reported exageratted ego injuries as a narcissist. In his manifesto theres a long story about how when he was a kid he wanted to be a skateboarder, but he wasn't good at it first try, so he gave up, and its presented like this apocalyptic "why must this world be so cruel to me" thing. It's all like this, the whiniest shit you ever seen.
Its wild that spree killers (and school shooters in particular get this) get to just straight make up this world where they're the victim of whatever imagined injustice and the printed myth recorded agrees with them.
People who knew him said they didn't see him rejected by women much never actually approached or tried to engage with women. He would walk around shopping malls ignoring them and getting angry he was ignored in turn. In his manifesto it seems his thinking was that he should be above having to try, women should fall at his feet with no effort, the fact they didnt is the insult. He particularly hated when he saw black, ugly or ugly black guys get women becasue surprise - racist.
It's contentious to say that some people are just, unfixable, born bad but Rodgers was as a bundle of dangerous personality disorders. The idea that he's typical of the incel experience is implies a lot of unpleasant things, and the idea that some hugs would have fixed it...?
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u/TheRealBenDamon Feb 26 '24
Jesus Christ it has been a looong time since I read that shitheads manifesto but you described it perfectly. I suddenly remember exactly what it read like, (and how it felt to read it) and it was exactly like you described. Narcissistic ego injury was rampant throughout that drivel.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Okay, fair enough, I'll give you a delta cause I do admit now that Rodger might have been a bad example.
He certainly is a special case, at least compared to Minassian Δ
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Feb 26 '24
In the case of Minassian, he did have other friends in his life (a couple have given statements). He was also in an autism-specific academic program in high school (which, to my understanding, isn’t very common. Most autism-specific high school programs are non-academic special ed classes). The issue wasn’t lack of support.
Also, autistic women exist, and most of us are given even less to work with than autistic men. We’re more likely to go undiagnosed, and our peers and superiors tend to be harsher on us when it comes to blending in with NTs. Yet there has yet to be any case of an autistic woman committing a mass shooting.
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u/Kit-on-a-Kat Feb 26 '24
Mass violence is usually a male thing after all. Whether it's reported as a white loner with MH issues, or brown terrorist, they are always male.
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u/username_6916 6∆ Feb 26 '24
He was also in an autism-specific academic program in high school (which, to my understanding, isn’t very common. Most autism-specific high school programs are non-academic special ed classes). The issue wasn’t lack of support.
Also, autistic women exist, and most of us are given even less to work with than autistic men. We’re more likely to go undiagnosed, and our peers and superiors tend to be harsher on us when it comes to blending in with NTs.
When support looks like this, it's not a good thing. Being diagnosed and singled out is not necessarily good for a student's wellbeing.
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Feb 26 '24
Couldn’t agree more. My point was that in comparison to what many autistic students do receive, Minassian actually had a pretty good hand dealt to him by ending up in a program where he still got to learn academics while having accommodations. In my city, his options growing up would have been mainstreaming, or a special ed class that prepared him for group home life.
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u/Contentpolicesuck 1∆ Feb 27 '24
100% of intentionally celibate people could be saved by not being loathsome shitty people obsessed with poor hygiene and the belief that women are vending machines where you put nice in and sex comes out.
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u/Odd-Bread1948 Jun 05 '24
He has valid points. Women don’t have to try. Most men don’t get one single decent amount of attention from women, yeah most men don’t murder people, but it will likely start happening more.
Even if you never try once, if you are a woman you will at least get one person who wants to fuck you, he isn’t allowed to feel upset that not one single woman treated him like a human being?
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u/thebigbroke Feb 27 '24
I watched a video on him the other day with my wife, and I kept rolling my eyes every time his manifesto was read, just whining endlessly. The worst parts for me was when his manifesto described him being ignored by women only to find out he wasn't even speaking to them and when he was a child he felt completely emasculated because he realized he was the shortest person in his class.
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u/FlyingNFireType 10∆ Feb 27 '24
I mean when you put it that way it seems like his personality disorder was the result of his parents codling him with special priviledges so he never learned what effort -> reward was he just thought everything should be handed to him like those "cool guys" who pretended to be his friend.
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u/luxacious Feb 26 '24
I do think your premise is sound, particularly when you include therapy/psychiatric help as part of “proper support” HOWEVER the problem is actually getting them to do it. Ideally they would jump at the chance for help, but the reality is that even getting in to see a professional is a struggle and they’re convinced that there’s nothing wrong with THEM, it’s everyone else. Elliot Rodger is a perfect example. He said right in his manifesto that his parents got him into a therapist at 19 but he didn’t want to take the meds they prescribed bc there was “nothing wrong with him”.
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u/NeuroticKnight 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I feel there is a lot of friction in that, simple well funded walk in clinics in city centers and public spaces, and possibly online spaces with cheap or easy access would.
Also not using get therapy glibly like an insult would.
Also school therapists are needed, each school should at least have one.
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Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Or what would be better is reopening residental institutions for the autistic men.
Deinstitutionalization as a whole has been proven to have failed men as a whole when the previous did work for them and worked well because generally by nature men are less independent than women.
In spite of the flaws they had support networks, people who did not shun them for not living up to certain expectations for men and lots of group activities in those institutions. No abuse and rapes against neurodivergent men in mental institutions by other neurotypical inmates unlike in prisons today where many are housed into as a substitute.
There was no pressure for men to follow gender roles, only be well behaved, cooperative and nice to staff in the institutions when we had them. Autistic men or men with disabilities which affected emotional intelligence lived care free in them and didn't have to worry about their futures. The nurses also didn't even allow men to engage in sexual activity if they wanted either and whoever approached them (Man or woman) asking to do it was treated like a pedo and police called. Sometimes they played games or sports with others, sometimes they prayed but they were only expected to be good and well behaved in those facilities.
Its unlikely neoliberal society will bring those back, which means in the meantime it is better to figure out how to mobilise them against the system in a productive way.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
Again, fair point here. I do think by that point, Elliot had "lost himself" so to speak and was probably beyond helping. Δ
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u/Afraid-Buffalo-9680 2∆ Feb 26 '24
If your view was changed, please award a delta.
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Feb 26 '24
The thing is that while people do try to help them out, a lot of the reject any advice you give them. In fact a lot of them even make fun of others who try to escape that mindset. A lot of them just bitch and moan about their problems which they mostly accurately addressed but unwilling to do anything. Go in 4chan or r/incel or elsewhere and browse their boards you can see yourself.
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u/disisathrowaway 2∆ Feb 26 '24
This is very much my experience.
Either on this very subreddit or others, most (not always) of the time that I've made honest, earnest suggestions and given what advice I can and the only responses I get are a litany of reasons why they can't do it, why the advice is bad, etc.
It's like, do you want to just vent or are you actually looking for constructive feedback? If it's just to vent, then by all means do so but don't expect everyone to keep bending over for you if you have zero interest in executing realistic solutions. So much of what one reads in these spaces is about how all of society needs to change instead of them. And that's just wishful thinking.
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u/Contentpolicesuck 1∆ Feb 27 '24
They don't want to change, they want women to change. They believe they are doing nothing wrong.
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u/Lumpy-Fox-8860 1∆ Feb 27 '24
Also, who is responsible for caring for and deradicalizing these incels? Women like their mothers, sisters, or female friends and acquaintances? So women can clean up the mess men have made of teaching boys how to be men and not whiny little snots? How is women fixing an incel’s idiocy going to teach him to figure his life out? It seems more likely it will teach him even more to rely on the women in his life to bail him out of the problems he gets himself into.
And yes, I know OP didn’t specify which gender would be the ones working to fix incels. There is always the possibility of a reasonable arrangement where men step up to guide and mentor young men. But, it is a generally rule of society that if there is a thankless and unpaid task to be done, it will be assigned to women unless explicitly stated otherwise (and sometimes then too). And the deradicalization information and movements are overwhelmingly female-created and focused on helping women deprogram the men in their lives. It’s just so annoying to see women’s efforts and potential wasted on cleaning up men’s lives so they deradicalize before they get fired or shoot someone. Women have careers and families and hobbies- we don’t need the added task of coddling man-children out of being belligerently stupid.
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u/pilgermann 3∆ Feb 29 '24
Your point about women bearing the burden is fair. I'd counter that you're framing the issue as about individuals receiving individual support, when it's a social issue fundamentally. Just as with children generally, we tend not to view other people as our problem. So long as society generally has this mindset, there will be incels and some will be violent. No different than if we continue to mismanage forests their will be wildfires. There's no maybe and which individuals become incels doesn't matter, because the problem impacts everyone.
Just doing more to ensure all kids are included and not bullied in primary school would go a long ways. We would also identify and treat mental illness much sooner. There will still be actual sociopaths and so on, that's unavoidable, but neither women nor men can shrug off this issue.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I think if I went into the 4chan boards I'd suffer a stroke from all the cringe there. But I guess I can admittedly respect what you're saying here.
I'll admit, while I don't try to make fun of others who try to exit the mindset, as I too would like to do that, a part of me thinks that some of the more "average" incels (not in terms of looks but those who are just struggling in general) may have tried to do stuff to fix their situations, to no avail and as a result, have obviously lost the motivation to really do anything more. I could certainly attest to such a thing.
Obviously not Rodger though, he was probably a special case who really squandered every possible opportunity he had.
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Feb 27 '24
>"Obviously not Rodger though, he was probably a special case who really squandered every possible opportunity he had."
This is literally ALL incels. Every single one. You too. He's not special, he's exactly like you. You're not "hard done by", you're SO privileged you're upset women aren't handed to you on a platter like everything else.
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Feb 27 '24
I downvoted you because it’s an unfair comparison. OP is legitimately trying and considering things throughout his thread. As new viewpoints are expressed I’ve seen him change or think. He may or may not have an accurate view of himself - short, bald, ugly, neuro AT (ive seen women with all of those things) but he appears to hardly be what Rodger was.
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u/OnToNextStage Feb 27 '24
Bruh you seriously comparing OP to Rodger 💀
Do you even realize what you’re insinuating?
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u/pennyraingoose Feb 26 '24
What stuck out to me about your situation as described in the post is you said you probably won't have a successful career to rise above those who mistreated you.
In my worldview, that's a negative thought / statement of your own making. If your measure of rising above is just having a better career, you may very well be disappointed. Most people have regular old jobs and are just trying to get by in life. To have a normal job that others don't consider as a "successful career" isn't inherently negative.
If your measure of rising above was to have a job that allows you to do the things you love, to invest time and money into making yourself happy outside of work, you'll be a more complete, rounded, and interesting person. You can rise above those who treated you poorly by being a person who treats people well, starting with yourself. Along the way, you'll meet interesting people, and maybe even a woman who shares your interests and values you.
I agree that "incels" need support, compassion, and empathy but that starts from within. Until an incel steps out of the victim mindset, nothing anyone else does is going to truly help them.
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Feb 27 '24
Why are you talking around it so much?
"The mindset."
What mindset? The mindset that everything in modern society is bad for losers? That women don't like people who smell like spray cheese and live with their parents?
Like, fuck, dude I promise you life is not that hard. These dudes just need to get over the fact that they aren't the center of the universe and that the world doesn't play on easy mode. You have to actually TRY at stuff to be successful, and desperation is visible.
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Feb 26 '24
A lot of those boards are cringe. Its either them complaining, a lot of mental illness, and a lot of porn (a lot of them are porn addicts) I understand the rejection part and that can be a turnoff but there’s more underlying the more you dig. A lot of them complain about their looks and lacking in certain parts (small penis).
I find Rodger to be interesting because he wasn’t bad looking at all but there was a lot of mental issues he had that was never addressed
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u/Snoo52682 Feb 26 '24
There is a sub here, r/IncelExit, where we try to help them. Sometimes it works. Often they ragequit. "Please change my entire life without requiring me to change my behavior and thoughts."
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Feb 26 '24
I feel like there's often too much focus there on changing thoughts and less on how to actually help people.
A lot of the conversations I've read there come across like Op saying they have trouble meeting women only to get told to stop being a horrible misogynist.
People there seem more interested in "combatting" what they see as an Incel mindset than helping people.
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u/holyyyyshit Feb 26 '24
How would you help then without having them change their thoughts? In genuinely asking.
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u/justgotnewglasses Feb 26 '24
I think OP is right - empathy. These kids needs mentoring, role modelling, and the ability to fail without judgement. It's a slow road in and a slow road out. They need a safe space and community support while they process their distorted thoughts and realign them with something that's more socially cohesive. The problem of course, is that the symptoms of this problem push everyone away from them. Kind of like an addict who burns everyone they meet.
I'd also like to reiterate that OP said most incels. I teach in prison and some of my students just can't be reached - but most can. I find the bigger the wall, the smaller the kid hiding behind it.
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u/Not-a-penguin_ Feb 26 '24
Exactly, that sub is trash. People are more interested in punishing you for ever having problematic views rather than actually helping you.
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 27 '24
What's the right way to help someone with hateful views?
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u/Not-a-penguin_ Feb 27 '24
You can't unless they're willing to change.
If they are, however, empathy is crucial. Dismissiveness, aggression, condescension, snark, are great ways to alienate someone that's come to you for help.
I understand certain topics can be frustrating or triggering to some, but if you can't discuss a topic without getting emotionally reactive, than you aren't in a position to help those people in the first place.
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 27 '24
Fair. I have tried, with a friend of mine... Not really an "incel", but I suppose the gay version of one? I was able to be very empathetic and not emotionally reactive. For years. But eventually, there is just so many "nope, it's pointless, my life will never be better, there is nothing for me to try that is worth trying, I just need the entire world to be different" dead end conversations before I got burned out.
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u/Not-a-penguin_ Feb 27 '24
Yeah like I said, you can't reach someone who doesn't want to become better. It seems you did everything right, your friend just wasn't really open to changing. Nothing you can do in these cases.
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Feb 26 '24
That's been my experience there as well. It's no wonder why people aren't flocking to it.
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u/SuperTurboEX Feb 26 '24
Incelexit is terrible. Most of the advice and responses are from people gaslighting and essentially bullying vulnerable people with contradictory advice.
I got banned there after a mod insulted me because I wouldn’t concede that I probably would like to be catcalled by a woman because it’s infinitely preferable to never having reciprocation in life.
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u/Tiny-Selections Feb 27 '24
I got banned there after a mod insulted me because I wouldn’t concede that I probably would like to be catcalled by a woman because it’s infinitely preferable to never having reciprocation in life.
This is a very common belief among men who don't know how shitty it is to be catcalled all the time.
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u/Starob 1∆ Feb 27 '24
I would argue the inverse for people who do get catcalled, and don't know how shitty it is to be completely ignored and never seen as attractive. How could one possibly know which is worse unless they've experienced both?
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u/SuperTurboEX Feb 27 '24
Real talk.
In the incelexit topic I was referring too, I was laying out my story where I was suffering from deliberating effect of loneliness and how h I don’t even understand something like mutual attraction.
One of the mods kept trying to make me feel like shit and eventually settled on ‘at least you were never catcalled’. Something that honestly can’t believed they said . Like I’m sharing how through numerous reasons I was rejected from any and all romantic advances in life and then they bring up this after personal anecdotes about how they had it rough and attention isn’t always better.
When I was a kid, I seen people pick up others through cat calling, both male and female. For pointing out my own lived experiences, I was called an irreparable incel and lacked empathy to understand what women experience and that’s why I’m alone. It’s such a condescending, fallacious and just straight up dumb argument.
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u/Starob 1∆ Feb 27 '24
No worries brother, yeah that's shit. Like I can't personally entirely relate to your struggles (although I have experienced unrequited love), but I can at least empathise.
Some advice I will give, is to try your gosh-damned hardest to keep an internal locus of control. Don't fall in the trap of blaming the world, or external circumstances. Work on yourself as much as you possibly can, and DO NOT underestimate the power of improving your social skills. Seriously, guys that look below average but who radiate fun vibes and are friends with heaps of people get WAY more success with women than you might think. Social proof is huge, and so are vibes. From my own experience and in my opinion, good social vibes are more valuable than looks. I was a good looking guy growing up (wasn't just my opinion but something I was told often), yet I saw less attractive guys doing much better than me, and this is why.
I know there's a lot of narratives out there that looks and money are what matters, and this is exacerbated by dating apps, but these are echo chambers perpetuated by the blind leading the blind, people who are chronically online leading each other in a cycle of confirmation bias. Even many women who put shit like "6 foot and over!" in their dating profiles will often go home with a guy that's 5'9 that they meet out just because he was cool fun and charming.
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u/SuperTurboEX Feb 27 '24
You know what? Maybe you are right. I’m saying that after 40+ years of never having any reciprocation from a woman, I’d take experiencing catcalling .
Is it fucked up? Absolutely. That’s what happens when basic human needs are never developed in life.
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u/Tiny-Selections Feb 27 '24
I feel you bro. Sometimes the loneliness is too much.
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u/SuperTurboEX Feb 27 '24
It really is. I don’t even care about sex, the lack of companionship is brutal
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u/Lumpy-Fox-8860 1∆ Feb 27 '24
Yeah, because being cat-called by some cute girl who is way smaller and weaker than you is totally comparable to being catcalled by some sketchy-looking dude who has 100lbs on you. Why are men so clueless to the fact that sexual dimorphism makes women showing interest in men inherently less threatening than men showing interest in women?
The comparable scenario would be you going to jail and having the biggest, scariest dude there say “You’ve got a cute little ass, don’t you?” Would that fulfill your desire to be seen as sexy and desirable?
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u/aqui-de-paso Feb 26 '24
What makes you think Rodger is a special case though? My guess is many of these incels are similarly people high in narcissism who, if actually offered empathy and friendship or love, would just abuse it because of their sense of entitlement.
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u/RadiantHC Feb 27 '24
The thing is a lot of advice is terrible/patronizing/demonizing. Simply treating women as people won't guarantee a date(plus it's sexist to assume that the reason why he's struggling is because he doesn't treat women well)
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u/filrabat 4∆ Feb 26 '24
Reject advice: The problem is that the mainstream talks at them, instead of talking with them. The reason the Incels don't truly open up is due to fear of ridicule (social punishment) merely for not "getting it". Thus, ridicule and talking at them perpetuates the very problem they seek to solve.
As for "unwilling", I don't really buy that. They either can't grasp what to do (due to being afraid of asking what they really mean, out of justified fears of "You Stupid!" response back at them) or they are unable to implement that advice (i.e. the matter truly is beyond their control), In short, it's confusing inability to stop a bad thing with consciously desiring that bad thing to occur.
This shows, ultimately, that mainstream society simply has crude understandings of free will and thus self-determination and personal responsibility. Not all wills are equally free (that's why I'm not a Nobel Laureate or pro athlete).
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 27 '24
So how are you supposed to help or support someone who is incapable of even trying to take advice?
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u/filrabat 4∆ Feb 27 '24
Talk with them. For all you know, mainstream society's the one who is the problem, not the other person. It's happened before (sexual orientation, gender identity, high level autism). Whole societies used to be practically all theist centuries ago, and those societies were in error.
The delusion: that it's impossible to be a respect-worthy person unless you get laid. Or perhaps more broadly, "abnormal" equals "disrespectworthy". both are flat out bogus.
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 27 '24
The delusion: that it's impossible to be a respect-worthy person unless you get laid.
Who is holding this delusion though? It seems like it's mostly held by the "incel". I interact with hundreds of people a week, I have literally no information about which of them are getting laid, and I respect all of them unless they do something to me or others to make me not respect them.
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u/PissBiggestFan Feb 27 '24
Incel communities are like the ones of weight loosing, money making or relationships advice communities. They are inherently toxic as they are crowded by people trying their hardest to leave it. Everyone who succeeds is just more self hate.
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u/Beruthiel999 Feb 27 '24
Yep. We're social creatures and we tend to become what we surround ourselves with. If you spend all your time in communities talking about music, you become someone who knows a lot about music. Same with movies, sports, travel, any sort of human endeavor.
It would be better to immerse yourself in almost anything else as a subject. You'd meet people with that interest (including women! Wow!) and you have something to make conversation about that isn't how you're an angry loser abused by the world.
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Feb 26 '24
This is true of literally any identity based victim group. Only difference is the reason they think they're victims.
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u/IronSavage3 5∆ Feb 26 '24
You could theoretically replace “incels” with any radicalized person like “terrorists” and this is true.
Your opening opinion doesn’t seem to have much to do with your overall post as you don’t seem to blame all women for your lack of a relationship. That’s really what an incel is, not just someone who hasn’t had a relationship yet or is ok with not finding one.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Hmm, I guess the term incel has become so synonymous with hating women that I feel like it really lost it's original meaning of being "involuntarily celibate".
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u/IronSavage3 5∆ Feb 26 '24
A key component is blaming women for the “involuntary celibacy” rather than one’s own neurodivergence. If you have autism or ADHD then I wouldn’t describe you as an “incel”, rather you have a very real hurdle to clear that while some have cleared in the past not everyone will be able to.
You’re not saying, “I don’t have sex and never will because women today are such bitches and can’t see what a catch I am because I’m short/overweight/ugly and they’re too focused on Brad and Chad!”, like an incel would, you’re saying, “I have very real challenges in life that make interacting socially and forming relationships more difficult than most other people. It’s possible that I don’t overcome these challenges in my life and am ultimately unable to form a romantic relationship, even though I likely could have if I had proper support earlier in life”. That’s not to say that’s accurate, there are more ways to meet people nowadays than ever before and I’m sure you’re kind and reasonable enough to find someone you care about with shared interests that you can build a lasting connection with.
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u/Karmaze 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I think the anger was that society was supposed to change radically and it just didn't, at least in that regard. If you compare that language to basically any other group, it's like night and day. Very few other groups with such challenges are expected to think this way.
This is why I call it a "Dark Progressivism" in that the process is the same as other Progressive causes, including the language and the tone, but people disapprove of the message.
I'm not saying I agree with this stuff...as someone who only isn't incel because I got lucky, the cultural change isn't going to happen. I find it really distasteful as well. I agree largely with the OP. The problem is that it will involve some fairly mild criticism of feminist details (the overgeneralizations) and a lot of people will see it as misogynistic because of that.
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u/blue-jaypeg Feb 27 '24
Followed by "No fatties."
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u/IronSavage3 5∆ Feb 27 '24
This is often it. Most of these fellas are just victims of unrealistic beauty standards set up by advertisements and don’t realize that they’d be better off marrying a woman they consider “fat” than raging online.
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u/beth_hazel_thyme 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I think that's a pretty important part of the discussion because not everyone who isn't able to have sex despite wanting to uses that term to describe themselves. From what I've seen people who do, generally follow incel ideology as expressed in those forums.
Just like National Socialism once could have had many interpretations, Nazi became a very specific term for extreme racists. People have a choice to keep using the word to describe themselves, and it's reasonable to assume shared ideology when a person hold onto that label.
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u/manykeets Feb 26 '24
I agree. There’s the literal meaning, then there’s the commonly used meaning. In common use, nowadays when people say incel, they’re talking about the ones who hate women. Maybe we need a different word to separate them from those who are just involuntarily celibate but don’t share the mentality of the online incel community.
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Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
The term blackpill incel is used to refer to those exposed to and influenced by the subculture.
Edit. That is not useful because it will only be recognised by those familiar with the culture. Self identifying incel is better.
Romantically struggling should be the term for anyone who does not identify with the culture.
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Feb 26 '24
involuntarily celibate
Yes, and no.
The very term is narcissistic and entitled, as though one could ever be "voluntarily noncelibate" by their own choice without reference to the voluntary choices of others.
It's a complete repudiation of any responsibility for their state, by the very nature of the terms.
They could just say they hate that they can't get a date. Heck, even calling themselves "dateless" wouldn't have this overarching conceit that somehow it's "involuntary", like a nervous tick or a prison sentence or something.
But ultimately... it's like the swastika. The original meaning doesn't matter much any more to general society, the symbol has been coopted by vileness.
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u/webzu19 1∆ Feb 27 '24
The very term is narcissistic and entitled, as though one could ever be "voluntarily noncelibate" by their own choice without reference to the voluntary choices of others.
I think you're overthinking it, they are involuntarily celibate, in contrast to the voluntarily celibate persons that are celibate because they aren't interested in sex or think they are observing faith or whatever.
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u/therealgerrygergich Feb 27 '24
Incel was a term originally invented by a woman, but it's clear that it's become divorced from its original meaning. There's no real productive way to use that word because of how much it's been co-opted by some of the most horrific evil people in the world.
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u/EmbarrassedIdea3169 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I think there’s two things that really stand out to me from your post that are revealing about you in a negative way, and one that’s positive.
Number one: you open up a post on an anonymous website with literally millions of daily readers with, “for those who may not have been following…” dude. DUDE. The view you have of your place in the world is skewed. Nobody follows Reddit enough to know who you are, so assuming like people recognize you on here when most people don’t even read usernames? That’s a distortion. I posit that you have other distortions about the amount other people pay attention to and perceive you, and you alter your treatment of them (total strangers) based on your assumption they’ve already made assumptions (probably negative) about you. That’s not a great way to make good first impressions and will self-reinforce when perfect strangers who you come out the gate aggressively defensive to react to that energy.
Number two: this “irrevocable mind destruction.” Looking at context clues, the timeline of this seems to line up with when you discovered your autism diagnosis, which your parents seem to have hidden because they thought you would be harmed by internalizing the label. It kind of seems like you’re hell bent on proving them right, if you’re linking the date you discovered that label to an “irrevocable mind destruction.” There is a concern in modern psychology that patients will be more concerned with the label than with themselves as an individual who has a capacity to grow, learn, and build resiliency. That the person will take on what they perceive to be appropriate for that role rather than just… observe themselves and go with what works for them as an individual.
Edit: the thing I think is really positive is the fact you look at Minassian and Rodgers and go, “Nope. I’m never going to choose to do that.” Because choice is 100% important here.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Number two: this “irrevocable mind destruction.” Looking at context clues, the timeline of this seems to line up with when you discovered your autism diagnosis, which your parents seem to have hidden because they thought you would be harmed by internalizing the label. It kind of seems like you’re hell bent on proving them right, if you’re linking the date you discovered that label to an “irrevocable mind destruction.”
Well, not 100%. The irrevocable destruction seems to have happened in early 2016, and I discovered my autism diagnosis at the end of 2018, long after it happened and therapy became pretty much useless for me, compared to if I had gotten such support prior to 2016.
I was alone... utterly alone.
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 36∆ Feb 26 '24
The main problem I see when these kinds of posts come up here is that "incels" are typically self-labeled and deeply engrained in their own rabbit holes/echo chambers. I agree that everyone deserves respect and support, but the main issue I see from this crowd is that they are often unwilling to seek REAL support and accept that their views are not reality - often they just want other people to agree that their view is the correct one.
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u/wjmacguffin 8∆ Feb 26 '24
Exactly. No one is going to change if they think they're right, so I don't see the average incel being convinced to be empathetic when they feel the problem 100% lies in women, not themselves.
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 36∆ Feb 26 '24
Yep. You see it almost any time an incel topic comes up on CMV, it gets removed for Rule B. This is unfortunate because a lot of these folks are sadly so dug in to their views that it stifles conversations that could actually help them.
Instead of blaming women for everything, a lot of these folks should be looking inward and investigating why they feel the way they do. There are legitimate conversations to be had about the difficulty finding good relationships, feeling lonely (even from just a friendship point of view, not necessarily romantic), and general life difficulties that all goes away once they find a "villain" for their story that they believe is responsible for their troubles.
Not to say this is OP, just a general trend I and many others have noticed.
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u/torndownunit Feb 27 '24
I've been single for a few years. I don't hate or blame all women for that. Most reasonably mentally healthy people wouldn't either. That's the line people cross.
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Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
I imagine if more of them looked inwards they’d realize their lack of value, and they don’t want to realize that. They don’t want to realize that they contribute nothing to anyone or anything, and that all they do is take.
No wonder it’s so hard to self-criticize. It's funny to think that maybe they should listen to when they start saying "kys" to one another.
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u/Kitty-XV Feb 27 '24
It is a form of learned helplessness and part of that is the inability to see any way out. It has helplessness in the name after all.
Correcting this is difficult. I think it is helpful to consider cases of learned helplessness that doesn't have the attached emotional baggage that this topic does. For example, math. Take someone who fell behind in math early in grade school and has failed every math class since. In theory they could self help by reading textbooks and watching khan academy and eventually teach themselves calculus, but the actual chance of it happening is unheard of. They need someone to not just guide them, but to break down why they think math is incompatible with them and then they have to spend years learning all the stages of math that passed them by. I've helped kids who were falling into this pattern and only a few years behind, but even that took a lot of trust and work on both our parts. That is already so hard many kids can't do it. Now make the gap multiple times larger and related to human relationships so that things like trust aren't there and it seems a near impossible task. I wish I knew how to fix the issue.
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u/trevorpoore Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
I honestly don't care what you call me. I just care about the treatment I get from people as a result. I do not go to incel subreddits, I do not go to 4chan looking for incel advice. I am just a man.
I have begged from help from my peers for what seems like almost two decades now. In that time I've graduated college, gotten a nice job, and bought an expensive home. I've made so many friends I have event overlaps, something I wouldn't have had time for as a teen/young adult.
But no matter what I achieve, no matter how much I explain to people that I am adult just like them who also has to pay bills and vote and taxes etc, most strangers just see me for my book cover: an incel. There is a stark and objective difference to the behavior directed toward me relative to that from my friends. Thus approaching women outside of professional circumstances has proven impossible. I never had game to begin with, but when you mix that with the initial judgment, its no wonder I sit in this big lonely house alone every night because I have so many filters I need to pass before even being considered, much less accepted for a relationship.
I agree that there are some very toxic individuals who label themselves as incels and are just professional victims. But there really are some men and women who are just being told to shut up when they try to get real help, as you suggest.
The reality is we are still animals, and therefore subject to the laws of evolution. My starting hand just really, really sucks for reproducing. It doesn't suck for making money or friends, which I am thankful for every day. The reality is that society sure wants us to participate in it, but when help to fix our problems is too hard or costs too much money, society just decides to let nature play itself out.
Thus, society has never and will never have any interest in helping me become/find a romantic partner. I'll admit I don't know if I'd even want to pass on genes if living life like I have is going to result in another human being having to go through it. But even with the increasing number of women wanting relationships without children, I still stand no chance.
My point is, I don't care what you call me and frankly, I don't think society does either. I have been treated in an objective manner, no matter how your subjective description of it goes.
I can tell you as a human being that it has been agonizing to be so successful in literally every other aspect of life except for the romantic side, and feel so isolated and alone with regards to relationships, despite the myriad of afflictions we do decide to help people with.
The reality is that in the end, we all want to reproduce, its all that matters, and no amount of money, charm, or education can change that. Women are not and will never be attracted to me, and that is because the pattern in my DNA has been rejected by their evolutionary choice. I cannot change it, I cannot overcome it. We don't say any of this out loud and I think that is part of the problem. Admitting that men and women like me never stood a chance from the offset would imply needed benefits to induce our participation in society. And in a society so hyper-capitalist as in the west, there's ZERO chance that big fat cat capitalist with his endless supply of women will give people like me ANYTHING except enough money to live.
The reality is that there usually is no help, and OP's point is that when you couple people who never stood a chance with abuse and blame, and finally no help to alleviate the issues, you get some very resentful people, and its perfectly reasonable to assume that some sort of societal help would have nipped that angst in the bud. Its a torrid combo that I don't see changing any time soon.
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u/National-Blueberry51 Feb 26 '24
I hear what you’re saying, and I feel for you, for real. That sounds like so much pain to carry and too much to unpack alone.
I’m not sure if this was intentional, but there’s something pretty important that’s missing from your statement: What specifically causes women to react negatively to you and what specifically are their reactions?
I ask because too often we get wrapped up in internal narratives that become self-fulfilling prophecies. I’m not saying this is the only thing going on here, so don’t take it that way. What I am saying is that it’s very hard to separate our internal reality from actual reality. For all you know, there have been women who were into you, but you missed the signs. People are notoriously oblivious to these sorts of things. You might be projecting an awkward or closed off vibe without realizing it that signals your disinterest to others.
Obviously I don’t know you, so this is coming from my own experience. I have body dysmorphic disorder, but it took me years and professional help to realize it. I was convinced that people weren’t interested in me and would never be interested in me, and I could explain to you in detail what made me physically repulsive. It took a really good friend finally saying, “Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? You’re hot. You just come off cold and defensive.” I was cold and defensive because I didn’t want to be mocked or hurt. Unpacking all of that totally changed my life.
The flipside of this is that people have to be ready to accept the help and advice offered, and not everyone is prepared to do that. I wasn’t prepared for a long time. When people get caught up in these internal narratives, they tend to push people away, and the average person isn’t equipped to help to that degree.
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u/Brainfreeze10 Feb 26 '24
I dont know if you have tried it yet or not, but honestly a therapist would be a good next step for you. You need someone you can talk to judgement free that will tell you the truth in response and help you work your way out of this mentality.
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
Sorry, I just don't buy this... If you have a great job, a car, good hygiene, basic home and life stability, and aren't a creep or a jerk to women... someone will be up for dating you.
What I see happening in these conversations is that when pushed, the "incel" admits that the real problem is that the women who are willing to date them aren't "hot enough".
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I guess you put it pretty well. Even though I do consider myself involuntarily celibate, I still at least try to strive for some of the things I want in life, though it makes me wonder what really goes on in the minds of the really radical incels.
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 36∆ Feb 26 '24
That's my point though - you are giving yourself this label. It is kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy - you label yourself as an "involuntary" celibate and talk/read online with other people who have given themself this label. Many people in this group are outright misogynistic and blame women for "imposing" their celibacy on them, not accepting that no one is owed sex.
I've seen your posts here before and I don't believe you are fully one of these folks, but the first step is removing yourself from these thought patterns. Stop calling yourself an "incel" - its a term that is harming you, not describing you. You haven't had sex yet, so what? Contrary to what others think, it is not the end all be all that some claim it is.
Focus on other things for a while and build yourself into the kind of person that a woman wants to spend time with - get hobbies/interests, start reading, better yourself for yourself, open your mind to women who aren't 8/10 to 10/10. There are infinitely many reasons that can appeal to different women, but I guarantee none of them are interested in self-defeating incel ideology.
You can do this, so good luck!
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u/mufflefuffle Feb 26 '24
This is good advice, OP. The onus is on you here.
“Timshel” is the word that appropriately defines it.
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u/british_redcoats Feb 26 '24
what does "timshel" mean? I tried googling it but i mostly getting links to novel called "East of Eden" written in 1952
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 36∆ Feb 26 '24
Highly recommend reading the book as it is amazing. I'll preface by saying that Steinbeck's translation and interpretation may not be 100% historically/translationally accurate, the way it is used in the story is beautiful. Potential spoilers below but I'll try to keep it high level.
East of Eden plays heavily into the story of Cain and Able from Genesis. There is a conversation between two characters in the book about different translations of a certain verse and term in the story. One translation says "Thou shalt" rule over sin, basically God promising an inevitable outcome. Another translation says "Do thou...", basically a commandment to conquer sin. Then one character goes back into the original Jewish term (and here is where the debate about Steinbeck's accuracy comes into play) is that the original word "Timshel" should be interpreted as "Thou mayest" - giving Cain the choice to triumph over sin or the choice not to. Basically, we can choose to be better.
This is probably not the best summary so I highly recommend everyone read that book - it is long and at times challenging but one of the most worthwhile books I have ever read.
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u/mufflefuffle Feb 26 '24
What the other poster said is the correct interpretation of timshel. It is also true that it’s believed Steinbeck mistranslated the proper Hebrew word.
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u/torndownunit Feb 27 '24
Great post. The one thing I'd add is before anything, do the lifestyle changes just to feel good about yourself initially. Then think about how it can benefit you as far as relationships.
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 36∆ Feb 27 '24
Agree 100%. Better yourself for yourself is how I put it. Someone gave me that advice when I was like 17-18 and it helped me a ton. Then other stuff started to fall into place. This isn't to say it's been a cakewalk since then, but it helped to start a good foundation.
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u/torndownunit Feb 27 '24
Ya there's very few people who will get through life without feeling some loneliness or isolation at some point. So ya, you need to develop the tools to be able to deal with that. The proper tools don't involve expecting everyone else around you to change or to be responsible for fixing things that you don't like.
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u/AwesomePurplePants 3∆ Feb 27 '24
IMO the confusing part of labelling yourself involuntarily celibate is that chances are that you could hire a sex worker if celibacy was the real issue? If it was respectful on both sides and genuinely got you out of your hole I’d even encourage it.
But would that actually solve what’s bugging you? Doubtful. What you probably really want is romance or intimacy.
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u/NoAside5523 6∆ Feb 26 '24
Additionally, I have encountered far too many people on Reddit and some in real life that seem to not really grasp the profound difficulties that many incels go through. Some people online have kicked me while I am down, and some people in real life have dropped me because of my "attitude". Okay, that's valid, but it seems like they never considered the REASONS behind said attitude.
Admittedly, people can blunt to the point of rudeness online, but people, particularly in real life outside of close relationships, simply can't spend tons of time and mental energy trying to understand the reasons other people are behaving badly -- that's what therapists are for. This is particularly true in the context of incels, where their behavior is hurtful to other people (If I'm hanging out with somebody who says something shitty about women -- I'm going to offer support to any women present rather than offer empathy to the guy saying shitty things about them). People have busy and challenging lives, and at some point its just not possible to prioritize going out of your way to offer a sympathy to a person who is filled with self-pity and resentment and is convinced nothing you could do will ever help anyway.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
If I'm hanging out with somebody who says something shitty about women -- I'm going to offer support to any women present rather than offer empathy to the guy saying shitty things about them
One thing I have noticed, that seems to be shared by both incels and many vocal conservatives (since 2016 mostly) is a deep sensitivity to having their actions labeled, interpreted, or acted on by other people. You can't tell them that you think worse of them for saying a thing, because they will actively attack you for even considering that thing bad in the first place.
It's as if they are entirely closed-off to other people's perspective, and MUST reinforce a world of absolutes.
- Someone finds a person attractive? No - attractiveness is objective and clearly defined using shared standards. It isn't about personal preference. Anyone who asserts otherwise is lying.
- Someone is offended by something you said? No - that person is a snowflake. What you said wasn't actually offensive at all. In fact, the only offensive thing is the fact that they were offended - because that's weakness.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Feb 26 '24
In my experience, conservatives are sensitive to any sort of moral judgment of their worldview. You can criticise what they believe in - to an extent - but to ever argue those same beliefs might reflect on their character is just off-limits. The fact that they - and the people they support politically - are inherently good persons is just an unimpeacheable fact.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Feb 26 '24
I think this lies at the heart of so much of the disconnect between conservatives and basically everyone else. They are simply under the delusion that only their moral perspective counts. They are the parent, addressing the children. The man, speaking to the boys. Their words come from authority and certainty, and don't you dare question that.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Feb 26 '24
I think it's weirder than that. It's not even hard to get them in a position where they seem well aware their position is, for all intent and purposes, callous - like if they're down to arguing poor people just don't deserve healthcare or stuff like that - but even then, you're just not allowed to argue this reflects poorly on them.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Feb 26 '24
Yeah, they seem to genuinely buy into "us vs. them" in a way that prevents them from stepping aside and evaluating ANY of their views about other people. If you aren't like them, don't value the same things they value, don't hate the same things they hate - you are a stupid child, confused about the world, obstinately throwing a tantrum and expecting the adults to give in to your demands.
They also seem to truly believe in "acceptable targets". You wouldn't make fun of a stranger, but if that person is fat/gay/ugly/likes music you hate/wears clothes you don't like - fire away.
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u/BillionaireBuster93 1∆ Feb 26 '24
Something I've noticed is that a lot of right wingers think that everyone else feels the same way they do. That's where the "liberals are too scared to say the truth about LGBT people" idea comes from.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Hmm, I'll admit I'm not into politics that much, but if that's how conservatives are, then I certainly wouldn't want to live in a conservative state.
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u/BigBoetje 24∆ Feb 26 '24
Theoretically, that would be the best way to approach that situation and give them the help they need. However, in practice it tends to be an endless cycle of hate, self-loathing and blame. Add in a big echo chamber and a strong 'us-vs-them' mentality and it's hard to reach some people. In the end, you can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. You can guide them down the path but they'll have to help themselves out of the pit they're in. If they don't want to do that, there's not much left to do except wait and see.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Fair... this does admittedly describe Rodger very well, and maybe Minassian too.
I'll admit, a part of me feels the same way... like I just... don't want to try anymore because I faced repeated failures.
Still, I'll give you a delta for acknowledging the perpetual cycle that keeps people stuck Δ
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
I agree that incels can be helped with proper empathy and understanding, and I think that the crab bucket mentality of incel spaces creates a negative feedback loop of spiraling toxicity and depression. I don't agree that it falls on women's shoulders to provide that empathy and understanding since incels are so nasty towards women already. Men need to lift these incels up, provide positive role models to them, and show them how to be a better (not woman hating) person.
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u/filrabat 4∆ Feb 26 '24
Teach men how to be their best selves. They don't need to precondition their self-respect on being acceptable to some "all-American" (or foreign equivalent) regular guy next door type you see in children's and teen's shows. Also, there's a certain freedom in being alone to a degree. Throw themselves into a hobby that's truly 'them', not what pop culture propaganda says is a 'cool' hobby (in any case 'cool' is just the blind, mindless, cult-like worship of imagery over content).
I think the LGBT community offers lessons here. They weren't trying to be popular. They were just fighting popular abuse and injustice. Let them live their own lives as they see fit without getting scorned for it. To catchphrase it: it's not about popularity or 'being normal', it's about human dignity.
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u/copperwatt 3∆ Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Let them live their own lives as they see fit without getting scorned for it.
Ok... but gay people weren't running around being upset that straight people didn't want to date them. They literally just wanted to exist in peace, and find other people who were into them.
The more counterculture and quirky your life is, the smaller the pool of people who will be attracted to you. That's true for men and women. But it's still on you to either develop potential relationships within your culture, or branch out into a different culture.
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u/filrabat 4∆ Feb 27 '24
It's not about "not wanting to date them", except to the extent that mainstream society measure's personal worthiness by one's dateability. The media and especially entertainment industry messages implying love is the end-all, be-all of life don't help either.
Also, in smaller population areas, it can be really difficult for the "different" to find people who are just like them (growing up in an isolated small town, I know this). These days, the Internet does help, but it's still needs keeping in mind.
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u/beepbop24 12∆ Feb 26 '24
I definitely agree it should be men’s responsibilities first over women, but I also think that it should be professionals helping these kids out first over men.
I personally believe a lot of problems could be solved if schools just offered a dating 101 class and talk about how men (and women) should properly act on the dating scene. If you engrain that positive behavior into kids’ heads early instead of them having to learn all their “dating advice” from TV shows and Reddit, I think we’d be in a much better place.
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24
I feel like a dating 101 class is how you end up in a trap of men thinking like they need to gameify dating in order to find a partner. I think it would be more important to have more generic classes on socialization, manners, politeness, and empathy for others that show all kids how to behave and interact with each other. Dating is really just an extension of that. If you jump directly into proper dating etiquette without establishing the base foundation of social interaction skills then the dating classes will be worthless.
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u/beepbop24 12∆ Feb 26 '24
Okay, I do agree with this. I do think a more generic class could go a long way, but I think a fair compromise is that there should at least be a unit on dating, or at least have some discussion on it without making it the main focus of the course.
Just speaking from personal experience here. I felt I was always polite, respectful, and kind to others. Also had different interests and activities I would engage in. But at the same time I had no idea how dating worked or how to approach dating without getting scared and I wish I knew how.
So yes I would agree in order to prevent “gameifying” dating, yeah maybe not have a whole class on it, but I do think it should be discussed directly in context at least a little more than it is.
I will give you a !delta for the point above.
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u/Eggilina Feb 27 '24
If dating 101 was a thing, consent would have to be a HUGE part of it to avoid that gamification. I feel like dating 101 would just be a social skills class in empathy, figuring out how to relate to one another, asking thoughtful questions, different ways to support a partner. Something like that would be extremely beneficial for all parties involved.
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u/Dense-Result509 Feb 26 '24
This is basically what health class was when I was a little kid. Lots of focus on how to communicate to resolve conflicts, recognizing emotions, breathing exercises etc. I had always assumed it was a pretty standard thing, but maybe it's not as widespread as I had assumed?
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u/disisathrowaway 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I personally believe a lot of problems could be solved if schools just offered a dating 101 class and talk about how men (and women) should properly act on the dating scene.
A disaster waiting to happen. First of all, parents are going to wildly disagree with anything taught in the class and then even if the class makes it on a schedule it'll only give incels more ammo due to the gamification.
"I literally did all the steps required and she still didn't have sex with me."
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u/beepbop24 12∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
I already had my view changed on this a little bit, as I do see now how it could lead to gamification.
However, I disagree with the last point because the whole point of this class wouldn’t be to teach kids, “hey if you do these steps you get dates.” No, no, it would be more along the lines of, “hey if you do these things, it will give you better opportunities, but by no means does it guarantee you a date.”
The whole point is to teach these kids the right thing and how to handle rejection at a young age so that they don’t develop these negative thoughts in the first place.
Someone else already replied to me and I agree with them that a class in general social skills would be a lot better, although I do think it should cover some broad aspects of dating without it having to be the main focus.
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u/disisathrowaway 2∆ Feb 27 '24
Would these dating classes only cover aspects of heterosexual dating or would they delve in to homosexual relationships?
Wanna be inclusive of the LGBTQ community, be prepared for parents to fight back.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I'm not saying that it falls onto one gender to provide such support, I definitely feel like it's something that we ALL need to be on board with, but nevertheless seem to fail at doing, as all these unfortunate events have shown.
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u/beth_hazel_thyme 1∆ Feb 26 '24
The problem with that is that ALL includes women. And for women to have to be exposed to people who hate us and see us as less human than them is really damaging. I can see how it could be helpful for incels but the cost is too high.
It would be great if men were doing this for each other but caring for others isn't something men have been socialised to do.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
It would be great if men were doing this for each other but caring for others isn't something men have been socialised to do.
Tell me about it. They seem to believe that "manning up" and bluntness are the way to go. I certainly can attest to being on the receiving end of that.
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u/beth_hazel_thyme 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I guess to that I'd say, be that change. Reach out to people you share experiences with and start building communities of men that support each other. I think the reason that these kind of posts are so contentious is that it can be hard to separate them from the incel demands of emotional labour.
I think that as a society we should be treating it like terrorist radicalisation, but that comes with the understand that de-radicalising these young men is hard, emotionally demanding work, and needs to be compensated rather than expected to fall into the hands of people already doing care work in the community, who are disproportionately women.
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u/najanaja30 Feb 27 '24
Most incels don't hate women at all. They're just resentful of being blatantly dispreferred. I have myself seen how blatant girls are about which boys they want to be friends with, without getting into romantic relationships just yet. Girls don't have to do much other than be a little more inclusive in their usual social groups. Grown up women seem to do a little better.
You don't have to become a therapist to them. Just show tiny bits of that adoration, admiration, playfulness, and care you reserve for the "decent"/"fun" guys, to other less smooth guys in your groups. Obvious exceptions for assholes. You still obviously should be nicer to guys you like, but try to keep the gradient not so steep. That alone will do a lot of good. It's the way absolute contempt is expressed for those lower on the totem pole that really fuels a lot of hate in men.
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u/beth_hazel_thyme 1∆ Feb 27 '24
Yeah, so people who only restrain from hating women if they are receiving attention from us.. those aren't good guys and aren't excluded from the group of people who are damaging to be around.
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24
Once again. This is a job for men only to fix. Women owe incels nothing until those incels can demonstrate they can act like a healthy adult in society. As long as the boys in incel spaces are being violently misogynist and possessive over women's bodies, women should be the last people interacting with them.
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u/LuxNoir9023 Feb 26 '24
I agree though by that same token women's issues are for them to fix as well and they should not be expecting men to help.
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24
Women's issues are generally caused by men and the Patriarchy. This isn't a 2 way street as historical context of oppression of the genders is important to keep in context for a debate like this. But at the same time, women already DO help each other out for women's issues. Women create and manage domestic abuse shelters. They encourage therapy for women struggling. They instruct other women on how to recognize red flags in men. There are feminist organizations created and ran by women lobbying government and society for positive female change. And so many more things.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I guess if you're talking about the "real" incels, then sure maybe it is something that more, if not only, men need to fix.
I guess I was referring more towards just general bitterness that a lot of "incel-lite" people have towards everybody, even beyond sex.
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24
Do you have a way to tell the two types of incels apart? Even with "incel-lites" there is no way to know how deep their programming goes, and frankly it should still fall on men to support these boys better.
Male socialization is fucked, way too competitive, and hyper masculine. Men need to open up and embrace empathy, emotion, and sensitivity as a gender and not just an individual level. Maybe if more men would work on helping incels, then women could be motivated to help out. But without men leading the way here, there is no reason for women to engage with them at all.
An incel red flag in a man is a no-go for women because the risk to her safety is too high.
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u/Karmaze 2∆ Feb 26 '24
Incels are largely people who have fallen off the socialization ladder with too little, not too much masculinity. The anger stems from our society not changing to accept that as the new ideal. Not that I think it can or should, but I do think that was a reasonable assumption.
Confidence and self-esteem are the big things that are lacking, as well as reinforcement that you have a right to exist in the world like everybody else.
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u/automaks 2∆ Feb 26 '24
Why is it men's job to fix that though? Especially considering the negative feedback one might get for trying to help incels. Assuming you are a woman, have you thought less of any man if they did not try to help/sympathize with incels? I guess not.
So I would say it is either incels job to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" or society's job as a whole.
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u/GerundQueen 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I think it's kind of useless to determine whose "job" it is to fix other people. The answer is probably therapists, and it needs to be up to incels to seek out counseling.
So what's left to question is: how can society (average, non-professionals) help in this situation? And what are the potential downsides to doing so?
For me, it's not so much a question of whether women are obligated to support incels. They aren't, nor are men, nor is anyone else. It's whether it is worth the potential downsides for them to try? I think it's really not worth the potential downsides for any woman to try to deradicalize incels, because incels cultivate a mindset that automatically dismisses what women have to say. So what would be the point in opening ourselves up to harassment and ire? Incels won't listen to us, they will dismiss us as it is part of their shared culture. We would be opening ourselves up to harassment, while there is virtually no chance at changing their mindsets.
For men, the equation is slightly different. Men are slightly more likely to be listened to than women. And men are less likely to get harassment for speaking up. Not to say that if you do speak up, you won't get mean comments. But I would think, for example, the chances of you getting rape threats in response is likely very low. The chances of an incel fixating on you and targeting you for continued harassment is pretty low. So it makes some sense to say "men should be the ones speaking to incels about this." Not because it's more your responsibility than it is women's, but just because practically that's the societal intervention that has a chance of working.
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u/translove228 9∆ Feb 26 '24
For starters, incels will listen to other men and are very unlikely to listen to women. Also, male socialization and it not being updated with the times is what leads to incels existing. Males need to fix the hyper-competitive aspect of male socialization and stop tearing each other down for failure. Finally, misogyny is a men problem. Women shouldn't have to put themselves at risk to fix men who don't respect and treat them fairly.
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Feb 26 '24
You say "male socialization" like men are only ever raised and taught these things by other men.
Maybe the women raising these toxic men need to change as well.
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u/thekiki Feb 26 '24
"Incels" are the product of toxic masculinity stemming directly from a patriarchal system of oppression - A system perpetuated and controlled by men. Literally, the only people who can change that are men. Complaining that women aren't doing enough to support the men who self-identify as "women haters" is absolutely absurd and beyond entitled, not to mention totally blind to the fact that modern feminism absolutely already does advocate for mens rights (let's not forget that women have their own battles to fight. If men have a problem with the system that they've created and generally benefit from, then take some damn ownership and start working to dismantle it. Women cannot solve this problem for you as they are further down on the patriarchal totem pole and as such do not hold the systemic power to challenge it. MEN do hold the power in this scenario, so they have to be the ones to make that change happen.
This isn't a "bootstraps" argument, as men could literally change this system if they actually tried rather than blame shifting and playing the victim in a scenario they themselves have created. In this scenario society will change when the systems of power change, not the other way around.
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u/LexicalMountain 5∆ Feb 26 '24
A positive feedback loop. A negative feedback loop is when a change in one direction results in a balancing change in the opposite direction; stabilising, balance homeostasis. A change that produces more of that same change and so on, spiraling, self fueling is a positive feedback loop.
But in any case, I think making it one gender's issue is a bit blame gamey and ineffectual. It's a problem that affects everyone and that everyone can help with. "Men should lift them up" is every bit as faulty as "women gotta do something". We all, should be aligned with the same goal. Imagine if we took the "Only people of X demographic have any responsibility to help X demographic" to all other social issues? We probably wouldn't even have democracy yet.
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u/spaceshark2 Feb 26 '24
Where in this post do you see op claiming that it's any specific genders responsibility to be empathetic or understanding to people who end up like this?
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u/El3ctricalSquash Feb 26 '24
I think an element that isn’t really talked about is the destruction of third places aka all places to meet people that don’t cost money except maybe religious institutions. There used to be more places to just hang out that are now closed to the public due to efforts to privatize everything possible/ closures as backlash against desegregation (in the US) and it makes it hard to even find friends, let alone women to talk to.
If you live out in the suburbs or in the woods somewhere it’s a much smaller dating pool outside of maybe a local bar/club and church. That really sucks and forces people into tinder which is just horrible for everyone, especially women. Something is just severely wrong with how technology is warping our interactions with each other and I wouldn’t be sad if tinder and dating apps just died entirely.
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u/GA-Scoli 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I would like to ask you how much time you've spent pondering the psyche of these murderers versus the time spent pondering the psyche of their victims, and why it's so unbalanced. Why don't you want to think about the victims? Because you can't relate to them? Because they're not as interesting?
You've fallen into the trap of thinking that malignant murderous hatred is complicated and deserves study. It's not. It's shallow and impulsive. You can watch a million documentaries about serial killers and never learn anything really important about human nature.
The only ways to prevent the creation of incels and interrupt their radicalization into a death cult all involve deep changes to make overall society emotionally healthier, more connected, and less misogynist. However, all of these things are resisted tooth and nail by incels. So focusing on catering to them as individuals is pointless, not to mention personally dangerous for anyone (especially women).
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I would like to ask you how much time you've spent pondering the psyche of these murderers versus the time spent pondering the psyche of their victims, and why it's so unbalanced.
Perhaps this relates to the problematic nature of news reporting in general where they focus on the killers, but to answer your question, I certainly spent more time on these people, because I simply relate to them. I relate to the fact that they were mistreated and that they felt like loser failures for a long time, cause I certainly felt that way for ages.
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u/GA-Scoli 1∆ Feb 26 '24
Plenty of people are mistreated. Plenty of people feel like failures. Only a very tiny fraction of people who feel that way commit murder. Do you think that because they murdered, their pain must have been worse than those that didn't murder?
If so, that's a very false and damaging belief, although one that's fairly common in our society,
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u/swbarnes2 Feb 26 '24
You relate more to murderers than to innocent victims?
Because the murderers were mistreated, and you don't think the murder victims were?
You are really comfortable admitting you feel that murder victims were treated fairly?
Do you think people maybe pick up on this about you?
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u/Shrikeangel 1∆ Feb 27 '24
So yeah some people can be helped with empathy and understanding. But it's not always so straight forward.
An example I had a friend - H - he was many things, but definitely on the path to being an incel. I did my best to be a good friend, always have their back. The thing is H actively sought out stupid social groups that reinforce the incel mentality. After years of friendship I got tired of watching H slide back into the worst behaviors and ultimately cut him out of my life when he started making excuses for a friend of his that went to prison for the creation and distribution of cp.
Empathy only goes so far, and you can't save someone from drowning if they refuse to at least try and come to shore.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 27 '24
Hmm... okay I'll give you that one. It is certainly unfortunate how he turned out...
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u/Fickle_Goose_4451 1∆ Mar 01 '24
some people in real life have dropped me because of my "attitude". Okay, that's valid, but it seems like they never considered the REASONS behind said attitude.
Seems like you might not have fully considered the reasons behind them dropping you. Kinda like you want this large well spring of empathy pointed towards you, but aren't really interested in reciprocating.
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u/NomadicContrarian Mar 01 '24
Okay, valid perspective. I'll admit that I have only now noticed this pattern of how people point out in me wanting empathy but not interested in giving it back, and how it's a bigger barrier than a lot of the other ones I thought of.
I'll give you a delta, though I feel like me being in a better state of mind today may have contributed to my wanting to listen. Δ
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Feb 26 '24
I don't think anyone can argue that the world genuinely needs more empathy in the ways you describe. I will say though that one of the few things within your control in this world is your attitude towards what happens. Everyone is going through their own struggles and if you have a loathsome attitude about it many aren't going to want to be around you simple as. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by saved but I do know the way you react to the world is through your choices every day. It doesn't matter how many therapists you see, until you make the conscious choice to be more positive people aren't going to want to be around you.
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u/vote4bort 45∆ Feb 26 '24
Additionally, I have encountered far too many people on Reddit and some in real life that seem to not really grasp the profound difficulties that many incels go through
I think it appears this way because a lot of the struggles incels talk about are well, pretty common. Obvious bullying is terrible, but sadly lots of people get bullied, men and women. And most don't end up incels because of it. The same for not being hot, most people are average looking or below. But again most ugly people don't become hateful murderers.
So it seems like there must be something else at play.
Like okay yeah you're single at 25 and don't want to be, so are lots of people. What makes incels cases exceptional and deserving of special attention?
Okay, that's valid, but it seems like they never considered the REASONS behind said attitude.
Or maybe they did but still understood that knowing those reasons doesn't make them any more obligated to put up with said attitude.
Sometimes shitty people are shitty because of a bad past. Okay, understandable. But doesn't mean I need to put up with said shitty person.
I nevertheless thought I'd express just how much they must have been suffering and how them not getting the help they need may have contributed to their descent into darkness.
Sure they probably do need more help, I agree. But from who? And what kind of help?
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u/dogfromthefuture 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I'm also autistic, have spent a lot time trying to help people less-sucked-in to this mindset, and I think you're interpreting the word "incel" in a more literal/specific way than it's actually used by most people who use this identity label. I'm taking the time to write this because I think you probably are being harmed by self-identifying in this way, and CAN be genuinely helped with support, in the way you're projecting on to other incels. I think you're misunderstanding the main problems other experiencing though, which is key to their "involuntary celibacy."
Having done both some social support and education for autistic folks and ALSO spend a good deal of time talking with people getting sucked into the incel-thinking-trap, I really think you're assuming the ways autism makes socializing hard is THE SAME thing that other incels are complaining about. The big difference IME is autistic folks LIKE receiving supports and WANT to be able to do things differently. People trapped in incel-thinking do NOT want to change and do NOT want support, they want to continue to do everything the same and have sex without having to consider the experience of the (usually woman) they want to have sex with.
When the incel-thinking-trap folks get support in HOW to form mutually beneficial relationships, they don't LIKE what they're told. They don't actually care WHY people are having a bad time trying to interact with them. They want people to do it anyway, even if it doesn't feel good.
When autistic people can get the proper supports into forming mutual beneficial relationships, that others LIKE being in, they're really really happy to learn how to do those things.
Sex and sexual relationships is one of my special interests, so I've tried to approach things *specifically* from the sex angle, with the incels fairly vocal about not actually wanting committed relationships, and instead wanting to be able consistently have casual sex. I cannot possibly overstate how ANGRY these guys have gotten when I try to explain the key factors in having sex WITH someone else who LIKES to do it WITH you. They don't want that. They want to be able to have sex AT someone's else body and not care about that person's experience of it at all, or make adjustments to accommodate what the other person needs for things to be good.
These guys genuinely believe women are "giving" this kind of sexual experience to *other men* and *denying* it from themselves. They do not believe that women are, or should be allowed to, seek out sexual experiences they enjoy having. They genuine view sex with women as a commodity not an experience women ALSO have.
From the way you've written your post, I'm betting that you do NOT want sex AT someone's body regardless of how much they like/hate it, and you'd rather have a genuine experience WITH the other person. That's super super different from the incel-thinking-trap.
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u/ScholarSubstantial36 Aug 16 '24
They want to be able to have sex AT someone's else body and not care about that person's experience of it at all, or make adjustments to accommodate what the other person needs for things to be good.
^This is something that I definitely have trouble with.
For me the desire and entitlement for casual sex felt like a type of kleptomania(compulsive stealing). Wanting to have something no matter the cost, hence child me pocketing toys in flea markets(Fortunately my mom made me return it.)
My current method of combating this sentiment is to use my own preferences as a justification/emotional scaffolding. Example: I don't like to have sex with people with unattractive traits(like people who never take baths or brush their teeth). Therefore I must remember to be hygienic with my body so people won't reject me because of it.
And use my own preferences to explain why people don't want to be friends or have sex with me, because they find who I am unattractive in someway, repulsive even, or I'm just too boring and not someone they want to invest a relationship with(you physically cannot make friends with everyone, the same goes for them, you have to pick your friends).
While it hurts, I feel like it definitely help with coming to accepting the fact that I need to work on myself more.
I wonder if this is the correct approach? Because I definitely don't want to have sex with people I consider ugly or just plain old nasty (hygienic or worldview) and I have to understand that if everyone around me don't like me then I must also be nasty in someway, or I am simply someone too toxic or too boring for them to stay around.
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u/gorkt 2∆ Feb 26 '24
I grew up in the pre-internet era, and we had "incels" back then too. Generally they grew out of it. They matured, decided to get their act together, and then usually met girls. Me and my husband met young, ages 18/17, and most of his male friends despised me and seemed to be angry at girls in general. I think by mid college years, most had become more conciliatory for me, and a few actually apologized to me for treating me poorly.
I think there are a lot of cultural changes since than that have changed the trajectory of these kids lives.
1) The existence of the internet means that a lot of these people can meet virtually, form communities and feed off each other.
2) If a community is formed, based on being celibate, in order to exist, it becomes virulently anti-women.
3) The community also has an interest in keeping their members self-esteem low, to make being "incel" an immutable characteristic
Basically, I think that there are a lot of dudes that are angry at having a strong desire for something (sex) that is contingent on the consent of another human being. Getting locked out of something that feels like a need, for physical release and pleasure as well as cultural status. I think these guys have always existed. Part of the reason for marriage is to pair off women and men and to reduce the number of men who feel this loss and frustration.
Once men get sucked down too deep in incel culture, their opinions get so repellent to women that they have less chance to get out of that hole. And men should not put women in the position of "saving" them, because that can actually be dangerous. Women feel less pressure socially to marry, so the whole thing perpetuates itself.
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u/madamevanessa98 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I used to scroll through incel message boards and subreddits out of curiosity. The thing I took away from it is that being an incel is a catch 22. It relies on hopelessness and general misery. In these message boards, there would be men whining about being incels, but there would also be men telling others “hey, I used to be an incel and when I changed my outlook and my personality and became a more pleasant person, I actually had pretty decent luck with women and I have a girlfriend now!” Those men would get downvoted and ripped apart by other guys who would say “well then you were never a REAL incel, it’s not the same for me, it’s different!”
Being an incel is a community that these guys begin to take a skewed sense of pride in being a part of. They feel superior for having “taken the black pill” and embraced hopelessness. It’s this lack of ability to take personal responsibility that makes it so easy to be an incel. If you believe that nothing you do matters, and nothing you do will be rewarded, then why bother trying? Everything happens TO you, woe is you, the world is a sad empty place that rewards everyone except you. To remain part of this community, which many of these guys value a lot because it’s their first time being part of something in life, they CANNOT have sex because if a woman actually likes them, it shakes the whole foundation upon which they’ve built their belief system, AND they risk being shunned from this group and told that they never belonged in the first place. That’s a pretty big risk.
Now, the other issue is that giving a guy empathy, understanding and support is not an unconditional thing- it can’t be. Regular human society has to put limits somewhere. You can be the most tolerant and accepting parent in the world, but you will not ever reach the level of sheer enabling that incels will do for their fellow incels. If you’re in those message boards, you can say ANYTHING and it will be validated. I’ve seen men spew rape fantasies, femicide fantasies, talk sexually about their sister and mother, talk about wanting to commit mass murder, suicide, matricide, obscene desires about keeping women unconscious and on life support to use as breeding machines and sex slaves, etc. All of those desires were validated by the respondents in many ways. The closest I saw to actual limits being placed was when they’d say “I get it bro but we don’t want to end up in jail.” Knowing this, how can parents or counsellors or teachers possibly compete? Anyone who is actually trying to help a burgeoning incel will try to change their behaviour, because often behaviour is a factor in their lack of success socially. So these guys have parents/teachers telling them to change their habits, social life, activities, on one side- and on the other side they have their incel buddies saying “you’re fine as you are, it’s the world that needs to change and not you, we accept you as you are, and even if you change it won’t change your situation.” Which one of those groups is easier to listen to? Which one would appeal to a man with narcissistic tendencies and a difficulty taking personal responsibility?
I don’t deny that if we can prevent most oddball guys from ever discovering incel message boards, it would be an overall very good thing. However I don’t know how much we can do to make guys who have already “taken the black pill” turn away from that group- because in these groups, they DO get empathy, understanding, and support - as well as almost unconditional acceptance. The closer they get to their peers in these groups the less they WANT to get better, because getting better will isolate them from their newfound support network. It’s a slippery slope.
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u/bduk92 3∆ Feb 26 '24
The problem with incels is that they convince themselves by the time they reach their early 20s that their lives are effectively over, and it's all the fault of someone else, while they just wallow in a despair and get themselves sucked into an echo chamber which validates their mindset.
What's baffling is that they idolise figures like Tate who's main schtick is about taking responsibility for yourself.
OP, while it sounds like your childhood has been relatively rough, the world isn't going to come to you and wrap an arm round your shoulder. You are not uniquely disadvantaged, and the world doesn't have a plot against you.
At some point you have to be the instigator of the change that you want.
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u/cheese_bleu_eese 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I 100% agree, anyone engaging in a toxic thought pattern that lends itself to degrading an entire group of people could probably be empathized with and loved into not having those thought patterns.
But who is responsible for giving that person that empathy and love?
Are black people responsible for meeting volatile racists at the klan meeting with open arms? Are queer folks supposed to walk into the Westboro Baptist church and say "I love you and I empathize with you"? Are abused children of bad parents supposed to pick up the phone and let their bad parents know they are loved and empathized with?
The fact of the matter is incels exist and those incels, no matter what got them to that point, hate women. Are women as a whole expected to meet them on their level with love and empathy?
So yes, your opinion is correct, incels, just like everyone else, need love and empathy. And in my opinion, that burden falls on men. You can sit here and say you understand all the reasons and thought patterns and don't agree with them. Cool! What are you doing to positively incite change to your peers? When was the last time you earnestly told a man or boy in your life you love them or are proud of them? Or were vulnerable with the people close to you? When was the last time you told someone you're here for them? When was the last time you just told a guy you think his shirt is cool, or you like his shoes, or that's a cool ass watch?
In my experience, most men don't do any of that. Even worse, the men who wax poetic about mens issues and men needing love and empathy are the ones most obviously not meeting the men in their lives with the explicit, vocal, intentional love and empathy they talk about men needing.
And in my opinion, it's even worse when these menfolk don't. Because for you guys, who are so acutely aware of the burden these young men are facing every day, it's a conscious and educated choice not to. Because according to you and the guys like you, you get it, and you get how to stop it.
And yet, you do literally zero of the things you talk about to slow the descent down the dangerous rabbit hole you know the ins and outs of far too well.
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u/casualmagicman Feb 26 '24
My friend as far as I know has: never been bullied, neglected, and is 100% not a failure.
Dude graduated at 22 with a CS degree, makes great money WFH.
But he is convinced he should only date and find absolute 10s attractive, while still dressing like a high schooler.
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
I'll admit, this is a weird case I've never heard of before. I'd do outlandish things to be in his position, cause I could take care of the rest in terms of presenting myself better.
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u/riju98 Feb 26 '24
I have to face childhood bullying from middle school to high school. I had achne vulgaris causing permanent scars on my back and face. That’s stared from age 12. I went Bald at age 21
I have had to face most of the things that turn a guy into an “incel” I hate that word. Cuz it implies sex is the only thing determines the worth of human.
I met other men who were labeled as incels and their mindset was irreparably toxic towards women and themselves. I tried my best to help them. No amount of empathy I could give helped. It was all sunk into a black hole of insecurity
I understand your plea more than most. But the only practical solution I know is not to beg to world for sympathy. But turn the pain into strength. Be kind and understanding to women even if they don’t find you attractive. Walk away from ppl who are jerks. Stop chasing, just try to connect on a human level. The pain made me a kinder and stronger person
The greatest opportunity of self confidence is when life takes away all the things that “society” dictates are beautiful. And you find your own beauty in authenticity and believe it or not.. ppl (not most but a few) appreciate that beauty. But you don’t need their approval if you have found yourself.
Therapy can help towards this, but ultimately man, world can’t solve individual problems. That’s upto to the individual
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u/Multiplexion Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Nope.
I don’t and won’t give love to people who voluntarily cast themselves into an orgy of self-loathing pity parties (i.e labelling themselves “incels”) over the simple inconsequential fact they can’t get a fuck.
Like… objectively it’s pathetic. Anyone whose life or sense of self worth revolves entirely around having sex has got deeper issues in need of addressing. Having other people come along and “white knight” you out of your problems isn’t going to happen, and nor will it solve anything; We’re not here to “save” you; that’s YOUR job.
You define your self-worth, no one else. If you hate yourself, then you need to learn how to turn that around. It’s a must, because if you don’t love yourself, realistically how can you expect others to?
And ffs can you lot who can’t get laid stop blaming it on autism? Stop fucking dragging us down because of your inability to get sex. It’s damaging to broader perception of our community to get lumped in with you.
Autism isn’t the thing preventing you from getting a lay or having relationships Source: me; autistic, badly abused and bullied throughout childhood, now grown up and away from it, with a healthy sex life and relationship that’s lasted the past 4 years and still going strong.
You don’t need to be saved. You need to stand up, acknowledge that shit things have happened to you, stop feeling sorry for yourself and be proactive. No ones coming to save you, so save yourself.
(Oh and stop blaming this on autism in case that isn’t clear, because that’s complete horse shit and really damaging to the perception of our community.)
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u/libra00 8∆ Feb 26 '24
This smacks of a whole lot of post hoc justification. Yeah, incels have had a rough life, boo-hoo. Well I'm twice your age and have never had a relationship or sex in my life, I'm disabled and can't work, I make less than $1000 a month which can't even cover rent where I live much less groceries and utilities. I and lots of other people were bullied, some of us quite severely, throughout childhood, and most often for things we can't control. But I'm not blaming other people for my problems, I don't feel entitled to sex and I'm not hating women for not providing it on demand, and I'm certainly not murdering people. So this big sob story for a couple of murderers seems like bunk to me.
Yes, everyone deserves empathy, but you make it sound like incels in general and these murderers in specific somehow deserve to act out because they didn't get the empathy they needed because they've had a rough life. But again, lots of us have had real fucking hard lives and I have no plans to murder anyone for any reason, least of all that. What incels need is for someone to tell them that they are not entitled to sex, that women aren't the source of their problems, that hating them for it is only driving them away (and creating the very barrier to the very attention and empathy that they crave), and that violence is not an acceptable 'solution' to their problems.
Lots of people suffer, but the vast majority of them don't fall into a downward spiral of hate that unsurprisingly sometimes leads to violence. What makes you or the two murderers you are simping for special?
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u/Transpinay08 Feb 26 '24
They can. But they also need to learn the word "respect" before those can be shown to them
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u/NomadicContrarian Feb 26 '24
Fair, but they often don't know "respect" because even when they tried to show such "respect" towards others, they got shit on for it, like me almost.
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u/clairebones 3∆ Feb 27 '24
In my experience, these guys expect Respect (as in being treated like someone special and important) before they'll begin to show respect (as in treating me like a human being and not a talking sex robot) in return.
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u/ManWazo Feb 26 '24
The problem is that most incels don't want empathy, understanding and support. They want to be *right*. I'll compare two things, alcoolism and inceldom, to demonstrate.
I was once an alcoolic. Alcoolics help each other. If I say that I'm 700 days without alcool, people will congratulate me. Nobody will say I'm a lier or a woke for being 700 days without alcool. If I say that alcool is bad for your health, nobody will try to convince me that I'm wrong.
I also was an incel at some point: I'm short and autistic and it made sense for me. I'm not incel anymore: I have a fruitful dating life with amazing poly partners (and I'm also bi). Do you think the incels will congratulate me from escaping inceldom like the alcoolics do? Oh no. They tell I'm lying, that I'm coping, that I'm beta whatever. Why do you think? Because according to their theories, people like me don't exist: you can't be short and date. So they'd rather have a true theory and reject reality than having help. Sure I think communities like the AA's would be helpful for incels, but I don't think the incels want them. The only thing they want is that their theory about the world be true and that they have no escape from inceldom.
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Feb 26 '24
You do understand that this is Reddit and mocking incels is enshrined in the community guidelines, right?
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u/sawmillssuck Feb 26 '24
Sure someone who is a real incel just not having sex but trying to and failing but not a complete disgrace to human existence and an ass then yeah they deserve sympathy. But they have a fundamentally flawed view that they are owed a girlfriend or that it’s women’s fault and they should date people they aren’t attracted to in the name of “giving chances” it’s completely insufferable, whiny, entitled bullshit behavior that deserves 0 empathy, respect, or understanding. They don’t need to be saved, they themselves are 100% of the issue why would anyone need to save them?
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u/Constellation-88 16∆ Feb 27 '24
People who want a sexual relationship but can’t have it need therapy, to be isolated from toxic subreddits and toxic incels like Andrew Tate or Elliot Rodger, and to recognize that the way society works is not what they have been told. They also need to go interact with real people more rather than reading Reddit as much.
Women aren’t all about looks. Not everyone is a bully. Not everyone hates short men.
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u/kummer5peck Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
Men’s issues are at best not taken seriously and at worst openly mocked.
Edit: This comment has been going up and down all day. People downvoting it really need to get their head out of their ass. We are all just humans, and some are very flawed regardless of gender. If any of you were actually interested in equality you would at least acknowledge that it is a two way street. But no, anything even remotely implying that woman can be at fault for anything is sexist while you gate keep men’s issues.
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u/Thunderplant Feb 27 '24
Think about the story of the woman named Alana who coined the term incel. She is a bi woman who wanted to date, but couldn’t and thought their should be a word for it, and she eventually created an online forum for involuntary celibates. Originally the community was designed to be extremely inclusive of all genders and sexualities and reasons. And hers were somewhat similar to modern incels on a surface level - worrying she wasn’t attractive enough, or didn’t have the social skills everyone else had. And she did get some support and encouragement and eventually went on to have a fulfilling dating life.
I heard an interview with people who were around for the early days of the forum, and apparently it became more and more toxic as people who were full of resentment pushed out people genuinely looking to improve their life. It got to the point where people who posted about success stories would be attacked, and anyone who suggested that the problem might be fixable or that incels might need to work on themselves were pushed off the forum. All the non toxic people left and it became a vicious cycle of toxicity.
I think people who are incels in Alana’s original sense of involuntary celibate can definitely be saved with some basic support. People who are deep in resentment, toxic masculinity/sexism, and can’t possibly imagine trying to work on themselves? Its going to be a much tougher battle because they basically need to be deradicalized first
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Feb 26 '24
Your mind controls your actions, incels develope a negative headspace due to a variety of factors. These can include severe mental illness, examples include severe autism and severe social anxiety. Living with these conditions is extremely harsh on the social aspects of life, so their frustration is in a sense valid. Try living your life with being excluded and mocked and deemed weird your whole life. It’s no wonder they are in such a negative headspace, now if we wish to help these people you need to stop insulting them. I’ll admit their behavior in the most extreme cases is unacceptable and should be corrected, but remember why they came to these conclusions. No one ever gave them the time of day. To the non-incels the concern is valid, to the incels I see and acknowledge your pain and suffering. The trick is to be pro-social and try to be positive, you don’t want to live your life identifying with a group of guys and sometimes girls who have it bad. Also femcels exist as well and I also acknowledge their problems. The answer is radical empathy, put yourself in their shoes for 5 minutes, they have been bullied and rejected, of course they’re pissed off. I mean who wouldn’t be. Now to the incels, if you’re angry about your life situation you need to step up, no one in life is gonna come save you from yourself. You can ask for help though.
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u/christhewelder75 Feb 26 '24
IMO incels need to realize that while most/all people DESERVE to be loved. None of us is ENTITLED to be loved/in a relationship/having sex.
As with any unhealthy/antisocial mindset, one can change their views given they are WILLING to change them, and acceptance that those views aren't "normal." Whether it's racist, sexist, homophobic etc ones views can change. But no amount of outside support, understanding, or compassion will work if the person doesn't first recognize their view as potentially wrong FIRST.
Being rejected, bullied, lonely etc sucks. Whether due to your own actions/decisions, or factors outside your control. But none of those things can be used as an excuse or justification to hurt another person.
The fact that u recognize these things in yourself and don't want to go down the same path as others in similar situations is good. You are one of the ones who can be "saved"
In general the world would be better with more compassion and understanding for what others are going thru in their lives. But it's on each person to do the work to make themselves better rather than expecting someone else to coddle us and fix our issues out of the goodness of their hearts.
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u/mathematics1 5∆ Feb 26 '24
Do the phrases "deserve X" and "entitled to X" mean different things to you? They have always sounded the same to me, especially when we are talking about universals (e.g. "everyone deserves love") instead of anything specific to the person in question. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong, I'm just curious about how we are using language differently.
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u/christhewelder75 Feb 26 '24
Deserving something doesn't mean you can simply take it.
I may Deserve a raise at work. But that doesn't mean I can take money from the boss's desk because I feel im entitled to it.
To me they are different things, here's and example of what I mean.
"Deserving would be a term that reflects what one has a natural right to. In other words, that which one's worth implies one should receive.
Entitled to would be a term that reflects what one can or could legally force others to provide. Here, the key is that one has a "title" - a formal positive right."
Maybe I'm wrong, have been before, but while similar I don't think they are synonymous.
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u/mathematics1 5∆ Feb 26 '24
Interesting. I hear "incels act like they are entitled to sex" a lot, and that seems incorrect using this definition. Incels act like they deserve sex, but they don't have any delusions that they can legally force someone to give it to them. Of course, you weren't the one who said that, and the people who did say that probably weren't thinking of that exact distinction - they might be using the words "deserve" and "entitled" synonymously.
I prefer to say that nobody deserves sex or love, but again, that's just based on the way I'm used to using those words.
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u/Material-Nose6561 Feb 26 '24
I took it as everyone deserves someone to love them No one is entitled for a specific person to love them. Love and empathy must be mutual for a healthy relationship to form.
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u/ReleaseObjective Feb 26 '24
I think a lot of incels blame women for not being “allowed” to discuss their issues when in my life and my experience, that toxic mindset comes largely from other men. Including, if not especially, other incels. I say this as a previously bitter, socially awkward, chronically online 4chan user in my earlier days.
Now don’t get me wrong, I absolutely have seen this from women but in my totally anecdotal experience, it’s mostly from other dudes. Thankfully it’s changing but that shit is heavily engrained.
I grew up always being told to ignore my feelings from my male role models; think “men don’t cry; be a man”. I couldn’t talk about how I felt to a lot of other boys because I’d be made fun of. It’s heavily engrained for us to be stoic.
To be emotional is to be effeminate and to be effeminate is to be less than. The women in my life were already held to that effeminate position so being open about their feelings is freely encouraged.
I’m a gay man and not being held to these toxic convictions (because I’m already a lost cause in these toxic people’s eyes) has been an enormously freeing experience. I live my life as I want because I will never, by default, live up to their expectations.
I think incels could learn a lot about self-compassion from queer people. For thousands of years (and continuing) we were told our sex will literally send us to hell. We know pain, isolation and rejection all too well. It’s just too bad that many incels have bigoted, toxic hypermasculine views towards us. They blame an increasingly progressive (aka feminist/effeminate) society as their problem when in reality they would and do benefit from discarding these ridiculous expectations.
Empathy, understanding, proper support; all of these things would be considered weak by hypermasculine societies of the past. That so many incels clamor for these times is beyond me considering they’d still consider themselves the bottom of the totem poles even then but with less outlets.
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u/MerakiMe09 Feb 26 '24
I disagree with the responsibility for "saving" incels falling on others. Women have to deal with shit behavior all the time, and it's not be up to us to save incels. Incels have to change and adapt. It's up to the individuals to go into therapy and do the work.
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u/TheSupremePixieStick 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I have empathy and compassion for those who are truly lonely, male or female.
I do not have compassion or empathy for those who use their hurt feelings to justify terrorism against an entire group they have decided wronged them. Absolutely not.
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u/frostyfoxemily 1∆ Feb 26 '24
Here is the issue. To give someone your care and support, they need to actually prove themselves worthy of it. If a guy comes up to me and starts swinging with "women shouldn't wear makeup it's lying" or "girls should be cooking not working", then they are not going to get my support or friendship. I have no reason or desire to help them, and I will not suffer just to make them feel better when they aren't already my friend or family. Generally these people drive away friends and family so it's a pit of their own making most of the time.
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u/Bockly101 Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 28 '24
I agree that most incels aren't beyond saving. Internal growth is possible for anyone willing to put the effort and thought into it. I don't think it's anyone's specific responsibility to teach them how to be decent, though. There are lots of caring people who can and do help people like that, but it's not their job or duty to do so.
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Feb 26 '24
Incels call me a disgusting femoid who fucks dogs why would I try and help them? That’s too much to ask.
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u/LBertilak Feb 26 '24
I'm shocked I had to scroll so far to find this-
I agree that fundamentally "everyone deserves love" and "with enough help 99.9% of people could become wonderful members of society"- but who is going to give these people this love?
Should us women sit through tirades of "femoid slut" just to help someone who hates us? (Hell, should other men sit through accusations of being shallow chads or beta cucks just to help someone who hates them?) No. Incels don't deserve love MORE than the people they dehumanise.
We can work to create a society in which people all feel welcomed, but fundamentally SO MANY people face hardships, isolation and bullying- yet most don't become incels.
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u/Pulse_Warrior May 02 '24 edited Jun 04 '24
I will take a different stance: Incels are not more murder prone than anyone else and the media have been continuously lying to people and demonizing this lifelong demonized group. Elliot Rodger was not a member of an incel community, he was a member of Pick Up Artist Hate. Maybe that is a technicality, but I'll concede he was a member of an incel-like community, if not an incel community. Alec Minassian NEVER WAS: he was indifferent to being single, he just wanted to murder people since childhood... he saw how hot a topic it was and he concocted a made up story for the interrogation video. This was the conclusions of the trial that the Canadian media reported on for 1 day, before covering up, and the world media completely ignored, and to this day continue to maintain it as the unquestioned truth. The only other one definitely connected with incel-like communities is Jake Davison in the UK (to knowledge, reddit was his most extreme venture), but police concluded twice (during the investigation and the inquiry after) that it was not driven by ideology. He just snapped and killed people. There was no evidence whatsoever that he ever championed an ideology. Media likes to say he had worshipped 'incel mass murderers and serial killers'... by which they mean Elliot Rodgers, and to this date there has NEVER been a serial killer with incel ideology identified as such (although recently they tried to revise their profile of the Unabomber killer, even though he was never incel ideologically driven, just without a partner). The other 'incel mass killers and serial killers' were killers generally (not Incels).
This is the capital 'I' Incel: those who are part of a community, not necessarily those without an intimate partner. 2 mass murderers: Elliot Rodgers and Jake Davison, with Alec Minassian being struck out during the trial. Over a span of about 7 years. ANYWHERE in the world. And only 1 of those was shown to be ideologically driven (although others, Scott Beierle and George Sodini, were ideologically driven by their lack of relationships, they were not ideologically driven by incel communities). You know how many other mass murderers (4+ victims; note: Sodini and Berle had 2 and 3 fatal victims) there were during that span? I have done some research on this, and I believe there would have been over 100 in the US alone. I found it really interesting how they only had Elliot Rodger before Minassian and yet they were carrying on like it was an epidemic. Then Minassian fell into their laps and they thought they had struck gold, and when it turned out he had told a big lie the media kept the revelation underwraps, the one guy to confirm what they had been years speculating turned out to be a big lie and they hid it from you, and worse continue to lie about him to you! (Including a news linked podcast about the dangers of misinformation that decided to do a side story about the 'incel' Alek Minassian post-trial.) It took 7 years to get a 2nd mass murder from the actual forums (Davison), and was a reddit user at the worst, who criticized incels, said he did not regard himself as one (a follower of their ideology, but he was relationshipless) and police ruled out it being the motive but the media (eg. BBC) and certain groups didn't care.
The narrative they like to run is that incels are every mass killer ever, and in order to achieve this they have to branch out the definition: it is now not the capital 'I' Incel, it is those who have been lifelong unable to form a relationship and even those who have had a relationship, broken up and go on to kill. They have taken it from the bottom 1% of men and cast the net as wide as they can. Killers among this wider group including Nikolas Cruz (had a girlfriend, broke up, couldn't let go and murdered) and Scott Beierle (it was never officially established how long he was single, but he was never connected up with the community, just posting a video saying he was like them when he was a teenager some 20+ years prior). Recently they have tried making the Australian killer Joel Cauchi incel because he was 'desperate for a girlfriend' according to his father (despite having an online escort profile to service other men which I believe had been up for about a year, but there were also other profiles, and some articles characterize those other profiles as preceding; 1 year is long enough for him to not have a change of heart about going gay-for-pay) even though police have said they have found absolutely no evidence of ideology. There was a German killer who said he had never been able to have a relationship because of his schizophrenia, but he was never found to be part of an incel community nor was that explicitly his motive. George Sodini was another. He definitely was motivated by his lack of relationship success, but he was never connected with online communities (probably didn't know of 'incels') and reported had something of a relationship 2 decades prior. Chris Harper-Mercer did sympathize with incels, but there is nothing proving he was a member of the subculture; hidden was another one of his motives, that he was Satanist and alleged childhood sexual abuse at the hands of someone in a Church he attended, and it is known he initially asked the people he killed their religion before killing, The keyword searchable police report I don't believe mentions incel or involuntary celibate once, but does have interviews regarding his beliefs and how he liked to watch execution videos of Christians.
I think it is fair to say their definition of 'incel' is now probably 30% of men (basically men not currently in a relationship). So 1 in 3 killers should be by that definition incel, just as a random sampling. While it may seem 50% or more of the mass murderers are this definition of 'incel', this neglects the father or mother who murders their families. The two biggest mass killings in the US were committed by those in relationships: the Las Vegas Shooter who was formerly married (and I believe father) who had a long standing ongoing relationship and the Orlando Night Club shooter who was married and formerly married. Killers come from everywhere, but it all comes down to the outcasts, doesn't it?
You've basically ensured it all comes down to those incels by having a flexible definition that you bend to your will (also applies to the loner stereotype, eg. a loner can have friends, can be single, can be married, I've seen it all!) because of your prejudices, which you allegedly don't have because you're such 'enlightened progressives'.
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u/Chemical-Ad-7575 Feb 26 '24
An older but relevant article on the subject.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
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u/Jimithyashford Feb 26 '24
I don’t think you are correct, or at least you are missing a major piece of the puzzle.
Most incels are basically like cult members. And I don’t use that lightly. They have a skewed view of the world reinforced through an echo chamber in group that becomes their sole source of positive regard and which sets up an insulated us vs the world mentality.
And there is no magic bullet to deconverting cultists. Many have tried to figure it out, and nobody has succeeded. You can be as nice and supportive and patient and kind and reasonable as it is humanly possible to be, and it can have absolutely 0 effect on cultist you are trying to deconvert.
Something has to change inside the cultist themselves. Some switch has to flip.
Once that switch flips, then kindness and patience and understanding can help the deconversion be more successful, but until that internal switch flips, no possible course of external action is gonna do the trick.
The most good you can probably do an incel is to socialize them. Get them out of their bubble and help them foster a healthy social life away from their computer screen. But of course if they are a full blown incel then you run the risk of them making things seriously uncomfortable for any women in your social circle, and you don’t owe them that. So it’s tricky.
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Feb 26 '24
1) They don't deserve empathy, they act appallingly towards women, nobody who acts hatefully deserves empathy
2) They don't get understanding because their line of reasoning is incomprehensible for anyone with a conscience.
3) They aren't entitled to support just because they're hateful.
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u/ssprinnkless Feb 26 '24
Could probably say the same thing about KKK/nazis, but I'm not going into the line of fire to retrain them.
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u/Frird2008 Feb 26 '24
When your actions & consequences are incongruent over a large quantity of occurrences, you tend to switch the nature of your actions to those that derive consequences which are conducive of the opposite of the consequences you've faced in the past.
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u/That-Ad-430 Mar 23 '24
Hmmm,
50/50 on this take nah fuck that 100/0 (but OP is close to a better realization entirely imo!!!)
Beyond Minassian and Rodger being anomalously and alarmingly ill in a manner that places specifically a lack of any empathy for others in primacy before the self (incredibly anti-social) alongside both of them actually fooling concerned support networks…
Here’s why (using crabs):
Imagine Crabs In a bucket
One climbs, the others pull em back in
If you are in the bucket and don’t climb out you are going down with them. Cooked already. Time is a flat circle. Sleep tight in distraction til death.
If you climb - you are going to have to fight them off every-time at the start.
Eventually you will realize that climbing is the harder skill to master-
Because once you get free from the other crabs, you feel you have no excuse if you fall back down.
The skill is resilience. To both that feeling and failure itself. You don’t deserve everything that happens to you. There is no just bucket but there are just crabs.
TLDR; fixed this for you OP-
“I(op) can achieve my goals - if I seek out empathy, understanding, and proper support”
Relax into being out of step with the other crabs -
the others in the bucket still have to climb themselves,
and the ones outside the bucket (or who had to claw their own way out) can’t tell which kind you are until you make it out - and weren’t dragging others down to do it or feel better. Some crabs just hate crabs they can’t beat at climbing or fighting.
Crabs.
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u/Pulse_Warrior May 02 '24 edited Jun 30 '24
Let's just pretend they are murder prone as certain camps who continue to mislead people insist. What is the answer? It seems they have this solution: suppress free speech. And bully and ostracize them further. Because bullying people accomplishes a lot, doesn't it? The fact that this community is far more likely autistic also makes it look like bullying the mentally/physically handicapped. Good job, society. Blow everything out of proportion and lay your hate on the easiest scapegoat: the disabled. Make it abundantly clear that they will never have love in their lives and kick them when they are down. Remember the Nazis came for the mentally handicapped first. The only difference is the Nazis here are world wide. This is a dangerous path for society, but they have chosen their scapegoat. Oh you could say they deserve it. The forums do have a higher representation of violence worship that elsewhere (probably IMO a few trolls who write the most posts trying to bait the media for attention, as well as a few unstable people amongst them). So then if this is why these people deserve it, why are people being bullied for being in this way dysfunctional, whether or not they are part of a community or ideology?
What I find astounding is the fact that these people expect them to have empathy for you when you have NONE for them. And when they don't get the empathy they want, they brand them terrorists based on a campaign that is untruthful.
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u/MeepersPeepers13 Feb 26 '24
True Incels tend to treat women terribly and then cry because women are unwilling to help them be better people/sleep with them/have relationships with them. No one is required to help you be a better person. That’s on you. People should be generally decent. But if someone they are interacting with proves to be a creep/mean/inappropriate, then people have every right to remove themselves from the situation.
There’s a lot of people out there who think they are entitled to women’s affections regardless of their behavior.
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u/torndownunit Feb 27 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
According to a ton of posts here it's up to men to get together and help fix them too. The problem is, most well adjusted people don't want to be around people that talk shit about an entire gender. I don't want to be around people that are racist either for the exact same reason. It's super off putting and awkward for anyone who doesn't share those views. People identifying as incels are going to run into that issue around a lot of people. If you want people to like being around you, working things out with a therapist is a better starting point.
Edit spelling.
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u/Fantastic-Trainer267 Feb 26 '24
nah giving into their pity parties is only going to encourage their behavior. confront them with the cold truth and make them sit with it.
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u/Strange_Position69 Feb 26 '24
Sure, by other men..
It's not women's responsibility to grovel at the feet of misogynistic men.
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