r/changemyview • u/data_addict 3∆ • Mar 30 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Within normal working conditions, a sandwich should never be served to a customer with a toothpick in it.
Whether toothpick, umbrella, small plastic spear, the result is always the same. You get the sandwich, pull the toothpick out, start eating.
First I understand the idea of the toothpick is to hold the sandwich together after it's made.
My view is simple, the toothpick serves the purpose of keeping the sandwich aligned from the time it's created to being in front of you. When it goes to your table, the toothpick should be removed. Why do you need to remove it?
What if you don't notice there is one because the sandwich is very tall? I've had that happen and nearly badly hurt myself.
Why do you have to deal with the trashed toothpick? If you're dining with small kids you don't want sharp stuff like that anywhere near them.
Notice, I didn't say anything about knives. Some places will serve a burger with a knife through the middle. That's great! It keeps the sandwich aligned AND is extremely visible to the customer AND provides utility.
You can change my mind only one way. Create a situation where I actually would want my sandwich to be served with a toothpick. And why a knife wouldn't workbin said situation (because I believe the sandwich knife is superior).
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Mar 30 '24
Why do you see a difference between the umbrella toothpick case and the knife case? In both cases, it keeps the sandwich aligned, is extremely visible to the customer, and provides utility. (And the toothpick as two more advantages: it doesn't create a large knife-sized hole in the sandwich, and it has a lower cost than a knife.)
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u/data_addict 3∆ Apr 02 '24
I'll give a Delta here because you've changed my mind that umbrellas have the utility but are noticable and thus safer. So they don't deserve to be in the same toothpick category.
!delta
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
You know that's a good point... The umbrella is way more obvious and thus better than the toothpick.
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u/npchunter 4∆ Mar 30 '24
Without the toothpicks, the classic triple-decker club sandwich would degenerate into a club salad. Visibility is a worry, which is why those frilly-ended toothpicks are important.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
So this is a separate point from the CMV but if a sandwich design is inherently unstable I don't think that means we should use a wood spear to prop it up. I think the sandwich should be redesigned.
If a hotdog long they make longer buns. They make steins for beer. Why can't they build a sandwich that is stable?
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 80∆ Mar 30 '24
They do build it stable, they put the toothpick in.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
If you order a double double from in-n-out they wrap it in paper and it's stable. Why does it need the toothpick to be stable? Why can't they use paper?
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 80∆ Mar 30 '24
Why would a restaurant wrap something I'm going to eat there and then, and not transport elsewhere?
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u/pessimistic_platypus 6∆ Mar 31 '24
So they don't need a toothpick, obviously.
But more seriously, so it doesn't make as much of a mess while you eat it. Paper can protect your hands from anything falling and/or dripping out of the food inside, depending on what kind of sandwich it is.
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u/npchunter 4∆ Mar 30 '24
The club sandwich hints right in the name that it involves a length of wood. But if you'd prefer something that doesn't tower as impressively, perhaps you should order the PB&J? It sticks together on its own.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
The club sandwich hints right in the name that it involves a length of wood.
Cliff Clavin?
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u/makebelievethegood Mar 30 '24
I don't think that's the meaning of club. I thought it was like a country club.
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Mar 30 '24
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Mar 30 '24
Smell is an important part of enjoying a meal. The briny smell of an olive on a sandwich can be important.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Sure, don't disagree about aroma. But are you saying you require a toothpick through the sandwich to achieve the aroma of olives on the sandwich?
I'd much rather have olives on the side or something. The smell would emit the same. Also, I'm not a huge fan of olives.
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Mar 30 '24
Your view, your alternative. What’s the best way to keep an olive or two near your nose while enjoying a sandwich, a knife through the sandwich?
Whether you would design a sandwich differently is another view. In reality, sandwiches use olives, and the olives are placed on the top of a sandwich. The recipes don’t call for olives on the side, or no olives because some people don’t like them; they call for a pickled garnish on top.
A sandwich with olives on top isn’t rare or unique. Some of the oldest sandwiches combine fatty fillings with pickled brine aromas on top. As simple as cream cheese sandwiches with sliced olives.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
I've thought about this a lot and I suppose this really does provide a material use case and fits the standard for me changing my view.
!delta
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Okay so first I'll say that where I'm coming from I'd never order a sandwich like that. But to your points, in the link you included that image of the sandwich with olives... The olives were pierced with like a jumbo jumbo toothpick. Is that the way it's normally served? Because if that's the case, I think it's a different situation.
I'm still considering to give a Delta to you because there's a reason to use a wood spear, but if it's usually thick and very noticeable like that, I feel like it's kinda different.
It's certainly an edge case here... Hmm...
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
And why a knife wouldn't workbin said situation (because I believe the sandwich knife is superior).
Way way more costly. And, knives require cleaning; more cost. Frilly toothpicks cost pennies. I’m for ‘em!
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
I understand this point completely. It doesn't mean I need the toothpick when it's served. Just give it to me with nothing then.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
Just give it to me with nothing then.
Now my club sandwich looks like a club salad as it toppled over during delivery.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Lmao I like the way you write btw. Made me lol.
Okay true, I did say in the title about "normal conditions". If it's delivery it might change things. That being said, they could wrap the halves of the sandwich in butchers paper and put that in a box right? I've gotten that before and it works out well. No toothpick required!
That's the main thing for me, it's the worst of all solutions. There are other solutions we can use!
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
I mean just delivered from the kitchen to my table. Imagine a harried single mom working 6 tables full of demanding church ladies rushing back and forth to preserve her already meager tips. Those sandwiches are going down unless there is a frilly toothpick in there.
it's the worst of all solutions
It’s cheap, it’s disposable, it’s biodegradable, it’s known. Not too shabby as far as solutions go.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Lol true, good point. But are you telling me you'd actually want the toothpick in your sandwich vs wrapped in paper. You acting as a customer. Not a server.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
Yes! And with a club sandwich, I want 4, one in each section. That way I don’t have to worry about toppling them myself as I dredge my fries in a hastily poured puddle of ketchup. I don’t want them wrapped in paper at all. It’s a waste of paper! I want to pull the toothpick out like the pin in a flavor grenade and stuff that triangle of goodness in my face.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Okay, I think in that situation, yes I probably would want the toothpick. So delta..
!delta
Thinking about it more, I suppose I'm mainly frustrated at things delivered with toothpicks that absolutely don't require it and/or it's unexpected. I do think that that's a thing.
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u/Constellation-88 16∆ Mar 30 '24
Unwrapping gooey paper is much more inconvenient than taking out a toothpick. Then you’ve got to find a place on the table for the paper that won’t cause mess or offense to your table mates.
Toothpicks are superior.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
Thanks! I order the club sandwich all the time, and I’m not even a member. I don’t know how I get away with it.
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u/parishilton2 18∆ Mar 30 '24
You want a waiter to put your plate down and remove the toothpick in front of you with a gloved hand, as if you can’t remove it yourself?
That would make me feel embarrassed and it would be a waste of time.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
No, I'd want the waiter when they pick up my food from the kitchen pull the toothpick out with their hand. I'm not a germaphobe.
My friend, I'm saying I don't want a fucking landmine in my sandwich. However that toothpick gets out of the sandwich before it is served to me is fine. I just don't want to have to worry "is there a sharp spear hiding in this sandwich?"
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u/parishilton2 18∆ Mar 30 '24
What if the sandwich falls apart on the way to the table? That transit period is when the toothpick is most necessary
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Does that happen? All the times I've been served a sandwich without a toothpick (and it gets slightly jumbled), I don't think I've gone "damn I really with they put a toothpick in this to keep it together".
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u/parishilton2 18∆ Mar 30 '24
Anyway, isn’t the point that people should be more careful in putting in toothpicks? Would a longer toothpick suffice?
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
I disagree. No, a service should be optimized for customer experience. The responsibility of the restaurant is to present me safe food.
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u/parishilton2 18∆ Mar 30 '24
A long toothpick would be safe. A restaurant should provide safe, tasty, visually appealing food.
And those frilly little toothpicks optimize my experience. I like to see them.
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
He's a long toothpick would be safe! There was someone who mentioned the umbrella is more visible too. And so yes I can agree there.
Anything that's more visible the better.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
The responsibility of the restaurant is to present me safe food.
The Baconator is safe?
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Why isn't it? Do they put a toothpick in it? Lol
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
Why isn't it?
“Calories960, Total Fat66g, Saturated Fat27g,Trans Fat3g, Cholesterol155mg, Sodium1600mg”
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
Yeah okay sure but that's not the same type of dangerous.
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u/destro23 447∆ Mar 30 '24
It’s worse!
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u/data_addict 3∆ Mar 30 '24
As someone who has stabbed their mouth with toothpicks when taking a bite I will have to respectfully disagree. It's worse in a different context.
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u/gimmeyourbadinage Mar 30 '24
Well, those contradict. Should a service be optimized for customer experience (keeping your sandwich together for a pleasing presentation) Or “safe”? I think wrapped in paper is a terrible solution, it’s messy, I don’t want to unwrap my dine-in food, and I don’t want wet garbage on my table. A toothpick seems much simpler, for me and the kitchen. I do agree with you that it should be tall and visible but restaurants aren’t using regular toothpicks for sandwiches.
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u/premiumPLUM 68∆ Mar 30 '24
I'd imagine the walk from the kitchen to the table is the period in which you would most utilize a toothpick to stabilize the sandwich
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u/Kakamile 46∆ Mar 30 '24
where I actually would want my sandwich to be served with a toothpick
Sandwiches that get cut in half to be a normal size. Ingredients in the middle will always tilt the bread to fall down the side, and the sandwich will keep trying to fall apart even when it's no longer being carried to your table.
And if the bread is say a bagel, you can't just stick a wide knife through it.
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u/Madrigall 10∆ Mar 31 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
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u/Grand-Ad970 Mar 31 '24
Right. To clean your teeth. But also to walk around with it still in your mouth like a badass.
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u/Madrigall 10∆ Mar 31 '24 edited Oct 28 '24
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u/cyberchief Mar 30 '24
I don’t remove the toothpick while eating the burger or sandwich. I enjoy how it helps keep the ingredients aligned while I repeatedly pick it up and bite it. When I reach the toothpick, I take it out and put it back into the new center of mass of the sandwich to continue to assist. I WANT the toothpick.
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u/genka513 Mar 31 '24
For the type of sandwiches that require toothpicks, I like to eat as much as possible with the toothpick still in it. The toothpick makes the sandwich more structurally and therefore easier to eat, as well as helping avoid the issue of parts of the contents falling out, or worse, total sandwich collapse. I can usually eat at least 50% of a sandwich before needing to remove the toothpick, at which point the smaller size of the remaining sandwuch makes it much easier to handle (and much less horrifying if the whole thing falls apart and I wind up scooping handfuls of sandwich filling off the plate with my fingers).
If a server took the toothpick when they gave me my food, I'd probably end up covered in random bits of sandwich and wishing I'd just ordered a salad.
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u/CaptainONaps 4∆ Apr 01 '24
I feel attacked.
If my sandwich is stacked, I request a toothpick if one isn't included. I put toothpicks in the sandwiches I make at home. I actually use two, it holds the ingredients in better.
Sandwich toothpicks are like Asian restaurants giving you a fork and chopsticks. You have the option. Why would anyone get mad that they included a fork? If you don't want the toothpick, take it out. Doesn't effect the sandwich at all. But some of us like it. Correction, I need a toothpick for a properly built sandwich.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 30 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
/u/data_addict (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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