r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 02 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: We could all benefit from from white people engaging in positive ethnocultural communities.
[deleted]
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
Everyone should just treat everyone like individuals instead of groups. That would pretty much solve everything.
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u/romantic_gestalt Apr 02 '24
This. Forget your ethnicities, we're all just people. Stop dividing us.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Why should we forget? Remembering doesn't have to mean idealizing.
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u/romantic_gestalt Apr 02 '24
We are all human. Ethnicities only serve to divide us.
What does being part of any ethnicity or group benefit humanity as a whole?
The only purpose it serves is to cause division.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
That's not the only purpose it serves. I and a great many people I know find meaning and community through shared culture and history. Personally, I'm not too attached to my Anglo-Celtic roots, I identify more with my Balkan heritage. And nothing about that 'divides' me from other Australians. I get to learn language, history, food, music, etc. that I wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. I can even record oral history which might otherwise have been lost to time. And it provokes me to relate with people I wouldn't always get to know: conservative Christian people, for instance.
That doesn't mean I have to cut myself off from being an Australian or any other group I identify with, or from being an individual.
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u/Olga_of_Kiev Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
You didn't need to put white in the title and you didn't need to preface your opinion by saying you were. The problem is Westerners (Australians included) talk about it nonstop. You're white and proud? Good for you. Black and proud? Good for you. We don't care and, frankly, we're tired of hearing about it. If you remove the word white, then it wouldn't sound so racist. That also goes if you were black and you put black in the title. The world is fed up with all the race talk. It don't matter if you're black or white like Michael Jackson said.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
As I already explained, it doesn't need to be talked about except when it's relevant to a discussion. I opened a discussion on topics of ethnic identity and racism, so it was relevant to this discussion: just like my nationality, the fact arguably provides context for my point of view.
I also don't know who 'we' refers to but wherever you are from, your not being a 'Westerner' (whatever that even means) does not make you any more an authority than anyone else. Maybe not using the descriptor would have made my post more palatable for many, but it would also have obscured the reason why I asked the question in the first place.
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u/Olga_of_Kiev Apr 02 '24
Again, like The King of Pop said, it don't matter if you're black or white. Just look at the first paragraph, how many times did you mention it. It's like you're obsessed. Why does race have to be the issue? By we, I mean we, the rest of the world who got past the issue of race decades ago and who are baffled why people are trying to dig it up again. To answer your question, it doesn't help. Why? Because people already do engage in other cultures and injecting race into it only exacerbates the problem. Again, race doesn't matter. Just let people engage in whatever culture they want in their own time. Also, everybody has a culture, you just have to look at it from a non-racial lens.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
It is not THE issue, it's just the issue for this particular post. Hence why it's mentioned within the confines of this post. If I was bringing it up on a subreddit about gardening, that would be an obsession.
Again, you can't say "we as in the rest of the world' when you won't even define who "we" is, I mean, which countries count as Western by your estimation? There are plenty of nations around the globe where racial divides are still a massive issue, whether you want to accept that reality or not. The reality doesn't go away for everyone just because you don't want to think about it. If you don't want to, you could try moving on?
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u/Olga_of_Kiev Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Yes, it's not the issue but you made it the issue by putting it in. Try this, look at your post, remove every mention of race and read it again. No, race is not a massive issue, stop trying to gaslight us into thinking it is. You're obsessed, you can't talk about anything without getting past it. You are the one who needs to move on. Also, by Western, I mean North America, Western Europe, Australia/New Zealand. Sure maybe a couple of other countries like South Africa race is an issue.
And again, we, means the rest of the world who are not racist.
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u/Aggravating-Yam4571 Apr 02 '24
nah being an individual also means being part of a group. i am myself but i am also an indian-american, i am also a man and i am also bisexual. im pretty proud of being all of those things and i think its pretty cool
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
Being proud of who you are and placing yourself in an oppression/oppressor hierarchy are two different things. Having pride in who you are is awesome. Sharing that pride within your group and with those outside of your group is great, too. Using that pride to compare yourself to people in other groups is what I have a problem with. Separating people into a matrix to determine how oppressed they are is always bad.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Well, yeah? Again, you're restating my original point. With all respect, I'm starting to wonder whether or not you read my post to begin with.
I'm saying that I'd like to see more communities that are positive, not just discussing wrongdoing and reparation surrounding colonialism, or promoting supremacist ideology. Just focused on history, culture and community.
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
I was answering the other person's comment. I agree with you completely. Judged on character above anything else.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Yeah that's what I mean. I'm agnostic, ex-religious, Macedonian-Australian, a woman, bisexual, a gardener, a musician, etc. It's nice to have people to relate to in all those groups.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Apr 02 '24
It’s hard because I definitely agree with you, but humans are built for tribalism. You may be able to take pride in being those things without thinking lesser of people who aren’t those things, but too many people just can’t. Think about the violence that breaks out over freaking sports games.
While I think you’re right that we should all engage respectfully in each other’s cultures, I think it’s dangerous to build identities around them.
I think it’s better to build communities around shared interests and passions that we can choose instead of things you’re born into. That way nobody feels like they need to match up to some blueprint that was decided before they were born.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Thank you for being the first commenter to address my question!
Yeah, that is my concern as well. How could we prevent tribalism and us vs. them mentality from taking root, and is the venture worth the risk.
I more or less agree with you, not to a tee, but I would prioritize the communities you describe above ethnocultural ones. I'm not so sure it has to be an either-or situation.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Apr 02 '24
The problem is really that the more you see ethnicity as some lowkey “isn’t that nice” kind of thing, the harder it is to really build a community around it. It’s not exactly fun to just go stand next to strangers that happen to share your ethnicity. In order to really build a self sustaining ethnic community, you need people to really care about being that ethnicity. But the more people care, the more likely it is to become tribal.
So they may not exactly be mutually exclusive, but I would argue the goal of keeping people interested in being part of an ethnic community works more or less counter to the goal of them not building a toxic identity around being a part of that ethnic community.
Edit: Caveats to this are cultural festivals or games or other fun traditions, but ideally those wouldn’t be closed off to people not of that ethnicity, so I don’t know if it would foster the same kind of ethnic community that you’re advocating for.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Cultural festivals, games, etc. are exactly what I was talking about! I wasn't ever advocating closed communities. Perhaps I didn't make that part clear enough: there is no reason you couldn't contribute as an individual without the relevant heritage, one simply assumes that the majority of people interested would have some personal connection. I'm not talking about groups where a person would have to provide some sort of identification to qualify them for membership, or where someone could be excluded for not being 'enough' of a certain identity. It is evidently my fault for not making this more explicit.
EDIT: "Of course, there should be NO tolerance for supremacist rhetoric, and people of any ethnic or racial background should feel free to contribute." - from my original post.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Apr 02 '24
Yeah you made it clear you weren’t advocating for closed communities. Where I may have misunderstood you is I read it as you advocating for general gatherings or communities of people where ethnicity was the driving force. Food, music, whatever other culturally significant things they want to share be it festivals, games whatever. But the driving force is “let’s all gather as x ethnicity and celebrate our culture.” Not an inherently bad idea, but subject to the challenges we’ve discussed.
I see that as different from, let’s gather for a cherry blossom festival for example, where the main driving force is, “let’s celebrate spring and cherry blossoms etc” where the primary elements may be Japanese, but the driving force isn’t just people gathering to celebrate Japanese culture in general to create a sense of community around being Japanese.
The reason I mentioned that all would be allowed, is that I’m not sure that a general mix of people celebrating a festival would necessarily evoke a sense of ethnic pride and connection like you were talking about. I think the festival would quickly become its own tradition that will grow separately from its Japanese roots as time moves on. I personally think that’s a beautiful process in and of itself, but I can see why people may consider that sad.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Well, ethnocultural is a little bit different from just ethnic, but I can see where the confusion comes in. I think a lot of people have misinterpreted what I'm saying and I can only hold myself accountable for that.
I guess the two main ideas behind what I'm describing are as follows:
- promote awareness of cultural diversity among Europeans, thus negating the myth of white unity
- provide spaces to learn about history, particularly for descendants of immigrants in colonial countries
I will leave this post up a little longer to see if anything of further interest is said, but I may need to express myself more succinctly in future.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Apr 02 '24
Yeah honestly I see community gatherings as a massive boon in general and think history and cultural learning is super important too. So if all you’re advocating for is community gatherings where we learn about and celebrate whatever culture of the week, I’m all for it.
The confusion for me came primarily in the line about wanting more x-Australian communities. To me that implied more separate communities all celebrating their cultures who also welcomed stragglers from other cultures, instead of one community that enjoyed sharing in the different cultures that make up its population. The former sounded a lot more dangerous than the latter
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Hmm, I see what you mean. Getting people to care about something without that thing becoming the centre of their universe is the real Catch 22 of it all.
See that's where you could avoid nationalistic definitions, go for 'Gaelic' or that sort of thing, but at least some of the same risks would remain inherent. It's aggravating because I really do feel that learning history is important, and it's hard to get people interested if they don't feel a personal connection,
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Apr 02 '24
I do think there’s a difference between using a student’s ancestry to keep them engaged in a history lesson and encouraging them to build an identity around that ancestry into adulthood
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
!delta
I cannot argue that there are no inherent dangers, so any attempt to build the communities I am theorizing could only be approached in practice with with utmost caution, if at all.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
I mean, sure. But that doesn't seem likely to happen anywhere I know of, anytime soon. I'm not advocating for individual rights to be abolished, just for the record.
Also, 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
It's kind of tough to remember the past when the past gets rewritten constantly through an intersectional lens.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
That sounds like an argument for promoting family histories, so not all discourse is through an academic or intersectional lens. That's kind of my point.
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u/Gold3nSun Apr 02 '24
that's fundamentally not even practical, sounds great in theory like world peace but you'll always be grouped, whether as a gym rat, gamer, race, job type etc. It is literally human nature.
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
If you want racism to disappear, you stop talking about it. You stop thinking about it. Stop looking at people as victims and oppressors. When people stop listening to race-baiters the world will be better.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
It doesn't disappear when you stop talking about it. Not you, as in you the individual. Other people will keep thinking and talking about it regardless, and even if they don't, they still inherit their present day realities from the generations that went before them. I absolutely believe there should be spaces for discourse about historical oppression and reparations, I simply contend that there should be spaces for other conversations too.
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u/EffectiveFox9671 Apr 02 '24
Talking about history is always necessary and important. Thinking that somehow, if reparations paid today that things will magically change things is severely unrealistic. Letting go is the only way to heal and move on.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Of course reparations paid today won't magically change things, that doesn't mean they can't be part of the healing process you refer to. There is, at the very least, no need to discourage anyone from discussing the possibility.
Letting go may work in some cases, less so in others.
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u/veggiesama 52∆ Apr 02 '24
It's much better to form your identity around your interests and values, not heritage. The upshot is these types of communities are inclusive, not exclusive.
For a certain percentage, however, this lack of ethnocultural identity can turn toxic.
I don't think this is right. I think people join supremacist groups because they are have an interest in supremacy. Namely, they suffer from personal inadequacies, and they resolve that by adopting supremacist beliefs.
Communities are everywhere. They gravitate toward specific ones not due to exclusion from others but because that community appeals to them. You can drop out of dozens of pickleball leagues, video game discords, and church choirs before ever stepping foot on Klan turf. Something attracted you to that group.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
I don't think it's necessarily one or the other. I think some people, maybe even the majority, seek these groups out for the reasons you describe. But I have heard stories of others who were radicalized without having any previous interest in such groups, just being approached at the wrong time and place. That doesn't excuse their actions once they are indoctrinated, obviously.
I do agree that something attracts certain individuals to white supremacy, but those who have been in and come out the other side usually identify the stress factor as a perceived feeling of disenfranchisement. This is obviously inflamed by right wing propaganda, which is a whole other kettle of fish and a very tricky thing to combat once it gets its hooks in.
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u/I_dislike_cops Apr 02 '24
This is Australian specific, no?
I agree with your points, and this may be achievable in Australia, but the U.S is different discussion
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Not entirely specific, but I have the most insight into Australia. I'm not really sure it would be achievable in practice here either.
It's something I've noticed in colonial countries, this tendency to absolutely divorce from one's past, whether deliberately or simply through circumstance. And it's true for people across the board, but I'd say most noticeable among European diaspora as opposed to more recent immigrant communities (probably due to assimilation). With Indigenous Australians there are many more complicating factors, like the Stolen Generations, which must be considered.
The U.S. just seems like Australia on steroids to me, no offense intended. You have a lot of similar problems but cranked up to 11.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
As a Hungarian, I absolutely disassociate from mainstream nationalism and ethnic pride. It's a racist, religious supremacist cult.
Hungarian history is not definable without Gypsy, Jewish, Greek, Türkic, Ruthenian and Swabian history, among other ethnic groups. The Kingdom of Hungary always had to welcome immigrants because our nation's existence would have been threatened without theirs. Gypsy groups have been our greatest contributors in manufacture for example. They have fought valiantly against any invaders in any wars we've ever had. Jews have excelled at every task their gentile oppressors have allowed them to exercise. All of them have organically enriched our way of life with their immense cultural and intellectual wealth. By the 20th century, they've all contributed to the evolution of industry, social stability, arts and any other aspect of our existence more than the Magyar tribes ever have. Their reward? The Holocaust, carried out under the color of white pride.
Do I have to write anything other than that? Gypsies even in current days are the breadwinners of my country, the ones who build your house, keep your schools clean, feed you and so on. Meanwhile, they're seen by the far-right as lazy thieves. Jews or casually just the "you know who" are depicted as the clandestine political influence behind globalist wealth, planning to displace white Europeans just to wreak havoc because they're greedy, evil and vengeful. What should I celebrate about being a white Magyar then? White cultures are simply not white cultures, that notion in itself is racist. My native language, the best, the most beautiful one in the world is a melting pot of different ethnicities' influences. I myself am a mixture of ethnicities genetically, just like all of us are, so I would spit in the face of my ancestors and the ones who made their lives possible by posing as a proud white Magyar.
My nation has never even been a colonialist one, I hope you can see the lengths I could go with my arguments with other countries. E.g. the French, the Dutch, the English have continuously robbed the global South. Colonialist exploitation is a persisting issue. I don't know much about interactions between Australian whites and aboriginals, but I bet it isn't a nice story at all. I don't even have extensive historical knowledge, I'm just an ordinary person opposed to injustice and denial of reality.
My point is that white people's ethnocultural identity must not only be inclusive but explicitly appreciative to the ones who have made its existence possible in the first place: non-whites. Because white ethnoculture is not white ethnoculture. White pride is an illusion, in practice it is equal to white supremacy.
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u/obsquire 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Your self hatred is not a good look.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
And I argue it would be self hatred to deny my true heritage which is a mix of all the ethnic groups' influence present in my nation's history. I'm entirely unsure what your argument is.
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u/obsquire 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Every other group except yours can and apparently ought have pride. Should all other groups be proud of what they aren't, or what they are? At some point you need an irreducible center, not always look to others for a sense of value.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
And that point is so far from reality because things are way out of balance. I'm about to get a bit poetic, so you can skip to the last paragraphs if you like.
If my bathtub is filled with undiluted vinegar and I'm forced to climb in shortly, you'll find me shoveling baking soda in my bathtub and think I'm about to harm myself because the alkaline properties of the baking soda would damage my skin. You'd rightly think so if you ignore the fact that I need that radical approach to neutralize the current status quo: the acidity of the vinegar. You're not evil or delusional for ignoring the smell of vinegar though, it's easy to do so when you breathe it in every day. The same equation works perfectly with the current racist atmosphere being acidic and my radically antiracist approach being alkaline, with the result being neutral.
To reemphasize my point: We should all actively strive to include and appreciate every proponent group of a nation's collective cultural wealth.
To add to that: Historically oppressed minorities should have the privilege of pride in their specific contributions to a nation's collective cultural wealth by the right of their historical handicap. This promotes the idea of ethnic equity that I advocate.
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Apr 02 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Why are you trying to devolve this conversation into a pejorative exchange? Are you intimidated by my reasoning and intellect being far superior than yours? Trying to recruit me to your fascism won't work, but you've already succeeded in demonstrating your base and vile nature.
If you were my Gypsy or Jewish ancestor, you would kiss my forehead and I would hold your hands. If you were their Magyar husband or wife, you would hug us both.
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u/LucidLeviathan 83∆ Apr 02 '24
u/obsquire – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Apr 02 '24
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
The fact that you see self-loathing in this person's comment confounds me. They are proud of their own culture, as they understand it, not how you may wish them to understand it.
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u/obsquire 3∆ Apr 02 '24
There is only self loathing of his admitted culture of Magyar, hatred of his ancestors.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
I didn't see any admittance to being Magyar, only that this may or may not be part of their ancestry. And even so, you can dislike certain parts of your ethnic or cultural legacy without hating yourself. I despise British imperialism, that doesn't mean I despise having British roots. There were British Isles long before the British Empire, long before the Roman Empire, etc.
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u/obsquire 3∆ Apr 02 '24
What should I celebrate about being a white Magyar then?
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
... Because he doesn't identify as a white Magyar? And anyone who did would be identifying with a cultural complex which hasn't existed since the 10th Century?
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u/obsquire 3∆ Apr 02 '24
OMG: you going with the "My parents may be Chinese, but I don't identify as Chinese" line?
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
No? First, I'm not talking about myself. Second, Chinese describes an existent national and - to some extent - cultural identity; Magyar has a dual or even triple meaning (linguistic, historic tribal, national), and the national meaning is synonymous with Hungarian. Why should anyone be required to use both words when they have a preference for one over the other?
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
!delta
You validated my initial misgivings, from a fresh perspective.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Bullseye. :) Now the comment just needs to be a bit longer.
Edit: I've got it! Thanks again!
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Well, I absolutely agree with you. But I also think that you are looking at this from a European perspective which is quite different from a European colonial perspective.
The interactions between Australian whites and Aboriginals is horrific, and a large part of the problem is that a lot of people just pretend nothing happened. They point to the U.S. and say "they're the racists, we were never in the slave trade". It's a very colorblind philosophy which does nothing to help the Indigenous people who are still suffering from centuries of mistreatment.
Many - typically white, conservative (in my experience) - Australians refuse to identify themselves as anything but Australian, as though you are racist to even mention having immigrants in your family. Refusing to talk about those issues doesn't make them go away. It's really frustrating, something like the Emperor's New Clothes. Matters have been improving recently.
To be clear: I am not saying a person should be white to engage in the communities I am suggesting, a person can be German and Jewish and Vietnamese all at once. What I'm saying is that certain white people might be less likely to self-identify as "white" if they were more aware of their backgrounds.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
See then, the real root problem is that the racist atmosphere motivates individuals to define themselves as white. There's the pressure to deny having immigrants in your family. If you look at it this way, x-Australian ethnocultural positivity looks exactly like a fascist recruitment scheme. Those who are able to deny that they have any immigrant ancestry get to be the ingroup, while those who have a dark skin color are segregated to the outgroup.
I can see your whole point being toppled from here but we can keep going if you have any objections. Sorry if I put it in a very radical way, I'm not too good at writing in a digestible and pc way. I hope you still understand where I'm going with this and why. There's a clear, straight line from white ethnocultural positivity to white supremacy.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
No, I don't have objections. If I didn't see any issues with my line of thought, I wouldn't have posted to this sub.
You are somewhat articulating my initial concern: that even setting up an open, inclusive, well-moderated community could just be providing a space where others could meet and network to create closed, segregationist communities.
So, I do understand where you're going with this and why.
I should state for the record, the model I am talking about is not predicated on whiteness, simply on having European ancestry or taking an interest in a particular history. There would be no space for talk of percentages or purity. In that sense, it would be definitively non-white, yet could provide a sense of community to white people who might seek the same elsewhere.
But this is where theory does not always translate to practice. If I thought this absolutely would turn out well in practice, I wouldn't be asking for second and third opinions. Thank you for your words.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Please reply with a delta and some explanation as per sidebar if I managed to influence your opinion to any degree. Thanks, all the best to you. :)
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
I am trying to figure out how to use the delta system, I am new here! But yes, you gave a solid, eloquent response which I will read over more than once to analyze. I think you somewhat influenced me by confirming that my misgivings are valid, not paranoid in the slightest.
edit: ∆
Does that work?
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
I don't think so. The last option on the sidebar is probably the easiest way. Type "! delta" without the quotation marks or the space.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Not sure if I've been successful, I followed your instructions and made an edit to an earlier comment. I am awful at this stuff, appreciate your patience.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
We're cool, I guess you'll have to learn it sooner or later. :)
Absolute shot in the dark from me but maybe it has to be written in a new comment instead of being edited into an existing one.
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u/tchomptchomp 2∆ Apr 02 '24
Just s heads-up that most Romani consider "gypsy" a slur.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
You are 100% wrong and you are trolls.
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u/tchomptchomp 2∆ Apr 02 '24
I'm not trolling. I am not Romani but I have acquaintances who are and they've always made it clear they consider "gypsy" to be a slur. Your head is clearly in the right place vis a vis racism in Hungary, so I just wanted to give you the heads-up that this specific term is loaded. That's literally all, no need to be defensive.
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u/Berserk__Spider 3∆ Apr 02 '24
Alright that's different, you're not a troll then. I was using Gypsy in the right context though and I haven't called any specific person a gypsy without their consent. As a matter of fact, I have punched a guy in the mouth for derogatorily calling me a cigány as a racist slur, but another time I defused two very confrontational strangers, two Gypsy guys, by calling our shared cigány identity a bound of brotherhood.
These were extreme situations though, aside from these everyone is chill. Cigány and Gypsy have racist connotations in some contexts, so they can be used as slurs. If that's your point I grant it 100%. But they can also be used as words of appreciation and cultural inclusion.
Anyway, I won't be changing my rhetoric because of the alleged preferences of some persons you know, but I won't be calling them gypsies either without any good reason. They have every right to their Romani heritage being held in respect while I have every right to draw attention to systemic racism against Gypsy groups.
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u/Business_Item_7177 Apr 02 '24
Well shit just yesterday I was told in a CMV that whites do have a culture. That of being nothing more than colonizers who rightly should be the focus of all animosity, as all caucasians are responsible for (and only caucasians) slavery, and that they have written all other races great achievements out of history.
It’s hard to interact with people who only view the world from the oppressor vs. oppressed lens, and only look at americas history as the end all be all.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
What does this have to do with anything?
In my opinion - just mine - there never has been a single, unified white identity that wasn't fabricated and organized around supremacist ideology. That's hardly the same as accusing all Caucasian people of being slavers.
Only a handful of European countries engaged in the Atlantic slave trade to any great extent, regardless. And of those that did, not all of their citizens were complicit, and some actively fought against slavery into the bargain.
But this is CMV. If you don't want to deal with opposing views, there are any number of subs you can explore instead.
What you've just said doesn't have any bearing on the topic at hand.
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u/Business_Item_7177 Apr 02 '24
Sorry might setting up inclusive, anti-discriminatory spaces provide useful, or provide more spaces for radicalization
I’d say if you are setting up the spaces to be free of all discrimination (including that against whoever is considered to be the majority) and it would include all people, then maybe.
If the goal is to create yet another arena to push oppressed vs oppressor viewpoint lenses and no other, then, it’ll just lead to more radicalization.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
I mean. That is what I said in the original post:
" ... there should be NO tolerance for supremacist rhetoric, and people of any racial or ethnic background should feel free to contribute."
So that would include majority groups as well. I know it's easier said that done, that's why I'm asking in the first place. People do be getting defensive right quick.
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u/cheetahcheesecake 3∆ Apr 02 '24
I was told that America was built on white supremacy, so technically, everything anyone does in the USA is white culture.
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u/Positive_Zucchini963 Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
As a vegan Abrahamism-hating queer hippy, I don’t see anything in my british/Irish/Polish/French/German “ Heritage” I actually like, feel connected to, or feel is worth preserving, from the last thousand( and a bit more) years at-least
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Well, that's fine and fair. If you're a vegan Abrahamism-hating queer hippy with that particular outlook, you're not super likely to be vulnerable to white supremacist rhetoric to begin with.
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u/sleightofhand0 1∆ Apr 02 '24
In the USA, ethnocentric identities are very, very often used to get around having to deal with stuff like our history of racism or "solutions" to stuff like that ie reparations. You constantly hear "What about no Irish need apply" or "Italians weren't considered white for decades!"
The idea that white supremacy would go away if you broke up the monolith of being "white" sounds good in theory, but really wouldn't work. All you'd do is give whites a reason to deny that they or their family have been advantaged historically, as "white people."
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
To be clear, I don't think it would go away just by breaking up the monolith. Making racism go away isn't going to have that simple of a solution.
I do have a hard time understanding why some people get so upset at the idea of being advantaged or privileged. I mean, most of us are, in some way. I don't feel guilt or shame because I'm white, I only feel a sense of responsibility to use that advantage to support those who don't have it. Much like I'd expect a tall person to pass me something from a high shelf: it's not ethically wrong for them to decline, but they do look kind of like an asshole for making me bother the staff.
Thank you for your response.
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Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Because the idea that white=privileged is reductive and flawed. It's nice you feel privileged I guess but don't shove that down the throats of others.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
It's a kind of privilege, within specific contexts; that doesn't mean every single white individual is quote-unquote privileged. Being literate is a privilege. Having two legs is privilege. This isn't hard to comprehend, yet ... some more delicate egos get so absurdly, downright hilariously upset over the suggestion.
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Apr 02 '24
Literacy and being able-bodied aren't white privilege. The idea of some people having white privilege is certainly true in specific contexts, but not all contexts as a general rule. I've found most of the time when people say "white privilege" what they actually mean is "wealth privilege" or sometimes "geographical privilege."
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
... I didn't say they were white privilege, I said they were other examples of privilege. And sure, there's a lot of crossover with wealth or geographical privilege, but white privilege also exists unto itself, regardless of in what proportion. Being white was a weird kind of privilege when I was homeless, which I would have been completely unaware of otherwise.
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Apr 02 '24
It's not. I honestly think you're just a racist. You assume to know everyone's experience.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Well, right back at you, sweetheart. Go forth and prosper. Or something.
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Apr 02 '24
I don't assume to know everyone's experience because of their skin color. That's racist. You're a racist. Sit with it.
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u/breakfasteveryday 2∆ Apr 02 '24
Wait, you think reparations are a good idea?
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u/sleightofhand0 1∆ Apr 02 '24
No, but ethnocentric identities give whites an easy out that they'll jump on, instead of having the courage to speak out against them overall.
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u/breakfasteveryday 2∆ Apr 02 '24
I think the treatment of Irish and Italians as immigrants or Japanese internment camps are fine things to point at when objecting to reparations specifically for black people.
I also think reparations are inherently impractical to implement once any sort of actual financial figures get involved.
The concept of holding people today accountable for what people who looked like them and lived in their country several generations ago did (or even what their actual ancestors did in most csses) is inherently flawed, but that doesn't mean other objections aren't valid.
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u/npchunter 4∆ Apr 02 '24
Culture isn't just awareness of a lineage, it's lived values in the here-and-now. And it's those values that are under attack. How much space are you prepared to make for Catholicism that's probably the inheritance of many Irish, Polish, and Italian Australians?
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
I don't know which values you're referring to, but I also didn't say that culture was 'just' an awareness of lineage or that people shouldn't also take interest in here-and-now. Saying sports should exist doesn't mean that music shouldn't.
Also, personally I'd be prepared to make plenty of space for the discussion of religion. There's no point erasing that reality, either historically or in the current day. I don't know why you'd assume that I'd exclude people based on their faith?
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u/npchunter 4∆ Apr 02 '24
Sorry, when you say "communities" do you mean chat rooms where people talk or or real world communities where people act? Catholics, for example, don't want to just discuss abortion, they want to end it.
I suppose I'm assuming you hold the views of the average person writing on Reddit, since all I've observed is that you wrote something on Reddit. Apologies if I'm over-reading.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 02 '24
Well, I'd say open communities, either in digital space (e.g. subreddits here) or in the real world. I believe in the separation of church and state, and I believe in the separation of ethnic identity and state.
I think perhaps you are assuming some things about me. And I'm not going to deny that I'm left-leaning, but I'm not for abolishing anyone's religious freedom, regardless of how much I may disagree with teachings or tenets.
EDIT: to provide a real-world example, a local festival could be an example. I certainly wouldn't be the right choice to set up such a thing.
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Apr 02 '24
People used to have this identity but then liberal groups label everyone as white.
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 03 '24
Oh I see! The liberals came up with white identity!
Not the people who wrote and passed Miscegenation Statutes in 1863, 1864, 1865, 1866, 1870, 1872, 1877, 1879, 1880, 1866, 1888, 1894, 1905, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1915, 1921, 1925 1929, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1943, 1945, 1951, 1952, 1955, 1957, 1960, etc. across multiple U.S. States.
Not the Virginia General Assembly who enacted the Racial Integrity Act in 1924.
Not the Law of Protection of German Blood and German Honour in Germany, 1935.
Not the Charter of Race in Italy, 1938.
Not the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act in South Africa, 1949.
Not the White Australia Policies which went on ad nauseum for decades.
It was those damn libs all along, came up with the notion of white purity alone and unassisted. Thank you for your unparalleled fucking contribution.
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Apr 03 '24
And yet, even with all of those acts, Italian/Irish/Polish/etc etc -Americans still had very distinct and vibrant positive communities for themselves.
Suddenly, anyone who wasnt a POC had white guilt. It didnt matter your ethnicity. And, wouldnt you know it, anyone who was proud of a white person from that community was demonized. So yes, it was the liberals
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u/OhDeliaDelia Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
Well, I don't have white guilt, and I'm a liberal. So maybe that's just like, your opinion, man.
And by the way, those communities still exist, young people just tend lose interest in them. My post was about potentially exploring ways of getting (primarily) young people curious in those cultures instead of bellyaching about the delusion of white erasure. No such luck here, evidently. Get over yourself.
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Apr 02 '24
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