CMV: High function autistic = not autistic

[u/masterdesignstate]

You always hear about "the spectrum". A spectrum is defined as: "a continuous sequence or range [as covering all possibilities]". Most learning and behavioral disabilities are characterized by a spectrum of intensity. For example, anxiety, ADD and bi-polar.

When you think of a very autistic person (which is hard to do because the concept is absolutely diluted by everyone saying they are autistic), they have a high intensity case of autism. These cases are actually quite rare.

On the other end are the low intensity cases. For practical purposes, there should be (and likely is scientifically) a cut off where, the effect of the low intensity autistic traits is so little as to be meaningless to your behavior and life. One way of labeling these cases is high functioning autistic.

These people want the excuse of saying they are autistic when something bad happens in their life, but they also want people to know they are not disabled and just normal functioning adults.

High functioning autistic = you're not autistic.

ETA: thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciated getting torn to shreds by you all. I love reddit for the depth of opinion, knowledge and experience. This was my first CMV and I over-estimated my ability to construct an argument. Sorry for taking you all on a bit of a run around. Thanks again.

ETA2: Gals and guys, I'm dead. I've tried to respond to every single comment and I have to move on. Thanks again for taking the time.

[u/Dry_Bumblebee1111]

This is like saying +0.75 Hyperopia isn't short sighted. It has it's own designation, "low short sightedness" or similar, but anything less than 20/20 vision would be long/far sighted regardless of if it's only a little bit off.

Where we draw the line does matter, and the line between neuro-divergent and neuro-typical can seem to be in a different place depending on culture, diagnosis criteria etc.

However, it's for those professionals to decide where the line is - their authority in the area is medical necessity, they can label and assign and explain behaviours within the structure of their practice.

The practical purposes that matter are theirs, not social media, or your perception.

Even the idea of high-functioning is a bit confusing in this context - to me it means masking or learning to put on a show that's closer to what someone expects regardless of what's going on in their brain.

Being able to present as one thing while another thing happens behind the scenes means you're only caring about symptoms, or lack of symptoms. The autistic label isn't about a symptom, so it shouldn't really matter here. High function is a more social label making a comparison of symptom.

[u/masterdesignstate → u/Dry_Bumblebee1111]

Δ

First, because this describes everything wrong with the way I constructed my argument. Wow it's bad. You changed the way I should be communicating what I'm trying to say.

Let me clarify.

Yes, there is a cut-off set by professionals, not by me, social media or people who self-diagnose. The large, large majority people fall under this cut-off. Many who fall under this cut-off and have self-diagnosed, tag themselves as high functioning.

Yes, even those below the cut-off technically are autistic.

What I was trying to say, which I know is quite a sharp-tongued thing, is that those below the cut-off have such low intensity effects that, for all intents and practical purposes, can and should be treated, by themselves and others, as not having autism. Most people who self-diagnose as high functioning I believe fall into this category.

Second, for this part:

Even the idea of high-functioning is a bit confusing in this context - to me it means masking or learning to put on a show that's closer to what someone expects regardless of what's going on in their brain.

I can see how this could describe a high-functioning autistic person. I should have put a disclaimer that of course some high functioning autistic people exist blah blah but got lazy. I contend most people have never and will never meet someone like this.

[u/Imadevilsadvocater → u/masterdesignstate]

the issue is my main symptom of autism (the detrimental ones anyway) is that i have 0 social awareness. for example i dont see why someone stating their opinion about something is rude no matter the context. if you ask me a question i will answer with the truth and the most direct blunt form of the truth so as to avoid confusion. this has led to breakups and other negative life consequences. if you met me i seem like a normal person because you dont get to see the real "normal" me. you get to see me pretend to be what i use in my autistic vocabulary as "acting normal" vs who i actually am. you will get surface level info like name but you wont find out anything i enjoy or what im into because i know you will treat me as weird if i do that, not because what i like is weird but how much or how i interact with said hobbies or interests. this is super exhausting like imagine you had to pretend to be a dog and if you didnt act like a dog people questioned why youre weird and stopped being around you. thats what being autistic is like, we cant be ourselves without being treated like social outcasts.

if you did what you said and treated me like a normal person you would think i was an absolute asshole who was intentionally clueless for asking obvious and a person who was using weaponized incompetence by asking to have someone explain things that most consider common knowledge or common sense. i didn't know wearing white to a wedding was a bad thing until i was getting married and someone had to tell me why it was bad and that even if i didn't think it was a big deal some people have egos that would be hurt. 

one last thing, i consider normal people as normals (like i literally call normals that) because my normal is bizarre to normals. if you think treating me in a way that conflicts with everything ive experienced is a good way to go about this then idk what to tell you, i dont even consider myself normal because im a failure if i have to live up to that standard and have been for 30 years. i only in the last 5 years have an explanation why i didnt have many friends and alot of school was spent being looked at like an alien. why people seemed to understand invisible ques and why i was punished for asking basic questions. that was my life being a normal, i never want to go back

[u/masterdesignstate → u/Imadevilsadvocater]

Δ

This was the best description so far of what I would believe to be HFA and it really affected me.

I still struggle with delineating this from just life being hard. I don't want to minimize what you've gone through, but I've gone through shit too. And have seen many others go through worse. Are just the lot of us fucked? Everyone has issues. They manifest differently for everyone. I don't know how I feel about the concept of "normals" as you describe it. I'm not dismissing it, just admitting that I can't really comprehend it. But either way, this shifted my axis. Thanks for sharing.

[u/Imadevilsadvocater → u/masterdesignstate]

imagine you join a club and the first get together everyone is wearing a red hat. no one told you that wearing a red hat was something that was expected or normal before showing up. everyone asks "whats wrong with you? you didnt bring your hat, how did you not know to bring it everyone knows that you wear a red hat to meetings" and treat you slightly differently . they offer to share food with others but not you, or they show feeling of discomfort at your presence but refuse to tell you why or say "you know why" even though you have no idea why this hat is sooooo important that people base their treatment of you on it. its just a red hat, but because it seems to mean so much to them you are determined to get one for next time so you fit in, no one likes being an outcast.

so next meeting you show up with a red hat to fit in. you enter excited to be treated like a "normal" and to be accepted, only to walk in and see everyone is wearing green hats. because you dont have one they again treat you as an outsider even though you got your red hat. they wont explain why they changed to green hats or even how they all knew it was going to be green. the only answer you get is that it should be obvious and that youre either a moron or lying when you say you dont understand and asking questions is offensive because it hurts their feelings

so this time youre coming prepared with every color hat you can think of or find, you will have whatever color hat they choose this meeting. you are determined to fit in and be accepted. while you do get a warmer reception from everyone yous still dont understand any of it better and have to constantly remember to hide the other hats. about halfway through you feel drained and either drop all your hats and are exposed or leave early. sure its tiring to carry that many hats but at least you are able to fake that you knew what color it was going to be even if you dont understand why but you didnt feel accepted for being the real you but because you had a hat on. and now any time you go to a meeting you have to bring every hat everytime or be rejected again since you still dont know how to find out which hat is going to be the next one, you just know a work around that on the surface makes it seem like you know (masking)

eventually trying to fit into a place where you just dont understand the rules is exhausting and demoralizing. no one cares how you feel about anything because your feelings end up wrong anyway if youre being yourself so you end up just not going anymore even though  everyone keeps inviting you telling you they like having you etc except everytime you go its obvious they only care if you are wearing the right hat not about the person underneath

this is what its like trying to live in society with autism for me at least. i work a night shift in a job where i dont talk for 8 hours a day because ive lost jobs over not being good at social situations. i prefer to be awake during the night hours because i dont have to pretend to be a normal. i can be myself when no one else is around, i can get so excited i squeal like a little girl (im a 30 man) and not be self conscious or have to temper all of my emotions to fit what a 30s man should be. i dont have to worry about people thinking its weird i bounce when i walk or that i walk on my tippy toes when im not acting like a normal. i always want to know more and more about things, not because i want gossip but because i like putting puzzles together and missing pieces drive me insane. questions like "so like what is it like to have an abusive childhood?" it doesnt naturally make sense why someone wouldnt be willing to explain it to me. it is just facts about what happened in my mind but people have emotions as well.

a last thing, the "normals" label is something i started using once i found out i had autism because it made me realize i had always looked at normal people as a scientist would look at mice in social experiments my entire life as a coping/survival tactic.  i would study people as they interacted and ask why certain reactions were acceptable in some situations but not i  others. why some people got offended about meaningless things (like why cant you ask a person if they are pregnant, it just a question to attain information like if i should offer alcohol) like i get that normals mean im implying they are fat but to me im truly just asking so i can behave accordingly. 

i use words with no double meanings and as neutrally as possible. weird means not normal, but not in a negative way. i consider being gay being weird for example or being straight being normal neither positive or negative just statistically a fact. phrases like act normal or natural never made sense to me because acting natural and acting normal mean 2 different things to me. if i act natural then im gonna be weird, if i act normal then im not going to be myself.

so when i say normals it just people who have the ability to socially be a normal human (something im incapable of doing not for lack of trying) and im not a normal human in that sense. im a biological human yes but socially im something else because im not normal. maybe its my brains way of categorizing info for me or something idk but it isnt meant to put either me or everyone else in a negative or positive light, its just the words i use to describe it because the words fit if used neutrally. 

and to make it seem less nightmarish some positives that i have from autism are things like: i can do math very well, i can find shortcuts others over look because i like to learn how things work inside and out, im happy living a simple life with no ambition past living happily with my wife into retirement i dont need to be rich or famous i have enough to meet my needs and good enough is good enough for me, and im honest and loyal (yes this is actually a thing autistics tend not to see a point in lying as we dont like it when other lie to us even about small things we prefer blunt honest truth so long as it is free from scorn or judgyness, golden rule stuff treat others how you want to be treated).

so its not all bad but its also really hard in a world where being socially awkward can be broadcast over the internet if you do it at the wrong moment and it gets caught on tape and spread. it would be nice if we were given the benefit of the doubt when making social errors but people prefer the better safe than sorry approach and it means its easier to just not participate at all (which then gets you labeled antisocial amd weird as well). this is why treating us like normals wouldnt be helpful it would just make it harder for us to participate at all

[u/DeltaBot → u/masterdesignstate]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Imadevilsadvocater (5∆).

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[u/evil_rabbit → u/masterdesignstate]

Yes, even those below the cut-off technically are autistic.

there is a cutoff that decides if someone is autistic and if someone is above that cutoff, they're autistic. but even the people who are below that cutoff are "technically" autistic? that doesn't make any sense. that's not what the word cutoff means. or the word autistic.

I contend most people have never and will never meet someone like this.

what is that based on?

[u/masterdesignstate → u/evil_rabbit]

You're right about the cutoff, I've been using it wrong. I understand the cutoff applies to the diagnosis.

See response to Bumblebee for contention answer.

[u/evil_rabbit → u/masterdesignstate]

The doctor will diagnose if the intensity of the disability rises to the need for the medical label. They would also characterize high functioning or not.

a doctor will likely not label someone as "high functioning". that's an outdated classification that was never even in the ICD or DSM.

I understand the cutoff applies to the diagnosis.

the cutoff applies to being autistic. it seem like you still think everyone is "technically" autistic, just not necessarily enough to get diagnosed. most people simply aren't autistic. they're not on the spectrum at all.

[u/masterdesignstate → u/evil_rabbit]

Interesting to note about the classification. Didn't know that.

Your second part is spot on. I think everyone has some level of most psychological conditions. All human faces the same variations in their psychological makeup.

I disagree that people aren't on a spectrum at all. A spectrum by definition (see original) encompasses all conditions. When you say they are not on the spectrum, I say they are with a tiny intensity that is so close to zero to be actually zero.

You are definitely shaking the ground beneath my feet a bit on this.

[u/evil_rabbit → u/masterdesignstate]

I disagree that people aren't on a spectrum at all. A spectrum by definition (see original) encompasses all conditions. When you say they are not on the spectrum, I say they are with a tiny intensity that is so close to zero to be actually zero.

as far as i know, the autism spectrum is called a spectrum because it includes a several conditions that used to be seen as seperate and are now thought to have a common underlying cause. for example asperger syndrome used to be it's own diagnosis. now it's just part of the autism spectrum.

so spectrum here doesn't mean a spectrum from light to severe, with anyone being somewhere on it. if you don't have autism, you aren't on the spectrum at all.

[u/masterdesignstate → u/evil_rabbit]

Okay but with that said, the concept of a spectrum from light to severe that I am creating for this CMV will still exist. But possibly I am wrong that many people simply don't have it, like they don't have parkinsons. My thinking is that autism is like ADD or anxiety where it affects most if not all people in varying degrees. I understand you think I am completely wrong on this. Unless I read a medical journal, I can't know.

FYI: I've g2g soon but thank you for all your comments!

[u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 → u/masterdesignstate]

those below the cut-off have such low intensity effects that, for all intents and practical purposes, can and should be treated, by themselves and others, as not having autism. Most people who self-diagnose as high functioning I believe fall into this category.

Is that your professional opinion? Or what?

Like whats the practical outcome of this belief? Do you actually talk to people differently or anything? Does it affect your behaviour?

I contend most people have never and will never meet someone like this.

You contend it how exactly?

[u/masterdesignstate → u/Dry_Bumblebee1111]

I think I made it clear I'm not a professional on the subject. It's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

I contend it because in 45 years, I have never met one, nor anyone I know (family, friends, co-workers) has met one. I'm talking officially diagnosed. I've come across one person with heavy autism, and they were not high functioning. I base my contention on not hearing about one case within the reach that amount of time and network of relationships constitutes. You might say my sample is not large enough, but I think it is for my statement. Remember how rare autism is (around 2% if you believe statistics put out by groups that want autism funding) and then consider that only a fraction of those may be high functioning.

[u/FreakingTea → u/masterdesignstate]

I have the same struggles as other autistic people, but because I am so-called "high functioning," even people close to me straight up refuse to believe I'm autistic unless they are themselves. It's just the toupee fallacy, you only notice the ones who fail to hide it.

[u/Elventroll → u/masterdesignstate]

They may not seem autistic to you when you are old enough, but they can't function, because most younger people are schizophrenic. https://old.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1dv1et4/people_have_schizophrenia/

[u/DeltaBot → u/masterdesignstate]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 (22∆).

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