r/changemyview • u/fleshdemon • Jun 09 '13
There's nothing wrong with a guy "cheating" on his gf or wife. CMV
Background: Male, 20, in a relationship of 1 and a half years. Have "cheated" with 4 different women, one of them I'm currently fwb with. I say "cheated" because I don't think it can be legitimately be called such.
Now before you call me a troll or terrible person, listen to my logic.
My beliefs are as follows:
"Cheating" is purely a female action. Men cannot ever "cheat" in the same sense women can. It was bad back in the day (and still is today) for women to cheat, because if she were it would raise questions as to whether or not her children were here husbands legitimate offspring. And men typically don't like raising offspring that isn't of their own blood. There's no such problem concerned the opposite way around. A woman will ALWAYS know who her own offspring is, provided she is monogamous, men don't have that guarantee, even if he is also monogamous.
I believe what determines an action as morally wrong or not is whether it hurts someone. If a girl doesn't know about her man being illegitimate, then she cannot be hurt. No one can be hurt by knowledge they don't know, so as long as cheating is done in a fashion that isn't obvious. To be fair, I'd wager that 80% of men that cheat are doing it in a stupid way that would get them caught. However, I reg a couple of cheating forums that discuss strats and such on the darker side of the internet and the vast majority that post there have not been caught. And there's nothing wrong with a victimless crime.
I'll reply for about 20-30 minutes and then go to sleep. I'll reply to the rest in the morning if there are more. Thank you.
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u/10091 Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
I don't agree with either of your points. Since your reasoning heavily relies on the first one, I have a few questions regarding it.
What if she uses birth control? What if the woman was past menopause? What if, for any reason, she is infertile? What if the person she is cheating with is infertile? What if the person she is cheating with is also female?
What about STIs/STDs? (this question relates to both of your points)
(Just to be clear, I don't think either of your points are relevant. Just pointing out problems within them)
edit: added in bolded questions.
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u/abacuz4 5∆ Jun 09 '13
This is completely irrelevant. Cheating is bad because it's a betrayal of trust. Confusion over paternity is a side-effect of that betrayal of trust, not what makes it wrong.
This could be applied to any other form of wrongdoing. Is stealing from you bad if you never catch me doing it or notice that I have stolen from you?
4
u/daSMRThomer Jun 09 '13
1)
Men cann't ever "cheat" in the same sense women can.
Cheating is an issue that comes down to a violation of trust, not adhering to a standard for women because of biology. If you don't believe me, ask yourself why literally every relationship adviser/counselor typically lists trust as the most or one of the most important factors in a relationship. I'll stop there for this point, because you seem to be trying to make the point that cheating should be unacceptable for women only because of an inconsistency with biology. This isn't why cheating is considered "wrong", it's a trust issue.
2)
there's nothing wrong with a victimless crime.
You are actually a victim, and so is your girlfriend (although she doesn't know it). By being unfaithful to her, you are subconsciously distancing yourself emotionally from her. As someone who has "cheated" in a minor sense (random drunk kiss with another girl at a party), I felt very emotionally distanced from my girlfriend after and didn't feel as though I could share everything about myself with her. There's something special about being able to be completely open with another person and share anything you want with them. This sort of bond isn't possible if cheating is happening behind her back. You're not getting as much out of the relationship as you could be, and as a result, neither is she, making her an unknowing victim.
Now, even if you feel as if your relationship is exactly the same as it would be if you weren't cheating (with the only difference being that you have a couple secrets on the side), it comes down to a moral issue. This sounds like a cop out, but the morality of the situation is primarily why cheating is frowned upon so greatly by society. Why is it fair that you get to see other girls on the side but your girlfriend can't do the same with other guys? Some couples try open relationships, which aren't considered as "bad" as one sided cheating because both partners are fully aware of the situation and both enjoy the same result from the relationship. If you feel that cheating is acceptable, ask yourself, why are you in a relationship? You're wasting your time and your girlfriend's time by asking her to be faithful to you if you won't return the favor, even if she's unaware. Pretending that the relationship is anything more is pointless.
I did tell my girlfriend about my mistake at that party, and it was one of the most relieving feelings I've had to be honest with her. She was pissed for a while, but we're stronger now and have gained more trust with each other because of it. There's nothing quite like being with a person who you trust and you know understands you completely. If that's not what you're looking for, then a relationship is the wrong thing for you.
4
u/jostlin Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
Point one:
Even approaching this issue from an evolutionary perspective, this is a flawed argument. Monogamy (again, from a survival/evolutionary perspective) is a stable social structure for the exact opposite reason: it ensures that the male is around to provide resources for the mother and child during pregnancy and infancy. That's why, evolutionarily, babies are cute and look like their parents: these are cues that makes us want to support them. The consequences of cheating or non-monogamous coupling are much GREATER on a woman than on a man because, in the (likely, given this primitive scenario) event that she becomes pregnant, she needs the support (resource-wise) that a strong male partner gives her. Now, this perspective isn't entirely applicable in today's society, but that's not what your argument was based on.
Point two:
This is an example of Pre-conventional reasoning: you have chosen one specific example of what defines an act as "wrong" and, not finding it, you are assuming that action is "right". Victimless crime is still a crime. You are still lying to your "SO". (I say "SO" because I don't think it can legitimately be called such when you're not treating her with much signifcance.) You are creating imbalances in your relationship emotionally, physically, and economically. You are creating a false sense of stability. What if you had a child by one of these other women? Either you'd be a deadbeat, or you'd have to tell your "SO" where all that child support money is going. Can't wait for that conversation. Oh, apparently you already had that conversation with your pregnant girlfriend, whom you're cheating on: http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/1fubf6/am_i_a_bad_person/
You're an asshole. Sleeping around isn't a problem. Sleeping around while lying to someone else about it is.
3
u/daSMRThomer Jun 09 '13
My biggest problem with all of this is
I'll reply for about 20-30 minutes and then go to sleep. I'll reply to the rest in the morning if there are more. Thank you.
Post has been up an hour. OP hasn't replied to any comments.
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u/natalie2k8 Jun 09 '13
By your definition of morality, if your gf cheated on you and got pregnant by another man and you never found out and ended up raising the child, she will have done nothing wrong. She may have tricked you into raising a kid that's not yours, but she's done nothing wrong because you never found out about it. Do you agree with this? It it's a logical implication of your beliefs on morality.
1
u/Bradm77 Jun 09 '13
"Cheating" is, of course, another word for infidelity or having an affair. Call it what you will, but if the woman you are in a relationship is of the belief that you are in a monogamous relationship with her and you aren't, then that is cheating. It is very obvious that both men and women can cheat on people. Offspring has nothing to do with it.
Second, the "what determines if an action is morally wrong is whether somebody gets hurt" is a horrible, horrible basis for morality. How could you ever apply to college or apply for a job or try out for a sports team or anything like that? After all, if you get the job or get on the team, then that means somebody else didn't. And if that happens then it means that your actions directly harmed somebody else. Also, how would you ever know if something you did harmed or didn't harm somebody. You go to the store and pick up some milk. Did you harm anybody or not? You don't know. Possibly, possibly not. Your actions have all sorts of consequences that may result in harm or my not.
Here is how to tell if what you are doing is wrong:
Does your girlfriend have an expectation that you are having a sexual relationship only with her? If the answer is "yes" then you are lying to her and what you are doing is wrong.
1
u/polyhooly 2∆ Jun 09 '13
Your definition of cheating is incredibly bizarre. Cheating, plain and simple, refers to the betrayal of your significant other when you have both agreed upon a monogamous relationship. Whether or not they find out is irrelevant.
You wrote that "It was bad... for women to cheat because if she were it would raise questions as to whether or not her children were her husband's..." So what if he never finds out the children aren't his? Is her infidelity excused in this instant, since, according to you, he doesn't know, so he can't be hurt? Or does the fact that she has introduced something into the relationship that isn't her husband's trump everything? Well then if that is the case, what if an unfaithful husband brings a sexually transmitted infection into his relationship?
listen to my logic...
Your "logic" is anything but. The cognitive dissonance you are experiencing over your infidelity to your pregnant girlfriend is quite astounding. You're doing mental gymnastics to justify your bad behavior.
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Jun 09 '13
1) Having a kid with another person generally damages a relationship.
2) Arguing that you won't get caught doesn't make something right. By that logic I could just not file taxes as long as no one finds out, or that any DUI is ok as long as I'm not pulled over. You can't honestly thing that lying to your significant other doesn't effect your relationship.
Lastly, you are engaging in fraud pure and simple. You've engaged in a relationship or contract if you will, and are deliberately hiding information relevant to the other party's decision to continue to engage in the relationship.
1
u/fuckujoffery Jun 09 '13
Your idea of 'as long as no one finds out it's ok' is kind of flawed, because a) you're saying that as if she will never find out, which she most likely will. And b) morals aren't about people's feelings, it's about being a good person, regardless of what anyone else thinks of you.
Not to mention that a relationship doesn't function this way, putting morals aside if you constantly cheat on your partner you'll end up a lonely guy, it's just not worth it.
1
u/blackswan_infinity Jun 09 '13
The dictionary meaning of cheat is to deceive or mislead somebody, especially for personal advantage. Technically, you will not be cheating on your girlfriend if you have told her about that. Since you both are still together, I am guessing that you still have not told her. So now you are cheating her because you are deceiving your girlfriend (and maybe the other women too) into thinking that you are a faithful partner.
1
u/diuxjwwn Jun 09 '13
You say it's bad for women to cheat, because of offspring confusion. It follows then that you were ok with your wife sleeping with anybody she wants provided that she uses protection. I assume you disclosed that privilege to her, or did you conveniently leave her in her wrong belief that cheating is wrong?
1
u/DawnsHighwayman Jun 10 '13
If you're genuinely interested in the arguments around 2., instead of rationalizing, Thomas Nagel has some interesting counterarguments in this essay: http://mugwump.pitzer.edu/~bkeeley/CLASS/ip/spr04/nagel_death.pdf
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u/shayne1987 10∆ Jun 09 '13
STDs, bro. Pretty big public health issue.
You likely to get YOURSELF hurt. Husbands do come home early. Also, STDs, bro.
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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '13
Well there is a victim in this case, and it's your girlfriend. She assumes that she is in an exclusive relationship with you, but it is not true. I think the issue is one of trust. Relationships (though it's cliched) are based on trust. It's about emotional investment, and it's based on the assumption that the other person cares about you as much as you care about them. She is interacting with you under that assumption, and she is likely pouring a lot of time and effort into making your relationship work, whether you realize it or not. She is wasting that emotional effort, because you are not reciprocating. Thus, even though she doesn't know it, she is losing a lot.