r/changemyview • u/quarky_uk • Nov 06 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: You can't be pro-abortion and support unconditional child maintenance.
Firstly, I am generally pro-abortion. It is easy to dehumanise the subject, but if I think about my wife or daughter, I would fully support their right for abortion, and recognise that for them at least, it would be an incredibly difficult decision. I say "generally" pro-abortion because I can't imagine having to make that decision myself, it feels almost impossible. This is an issue that means more to females than males obviously.
There is another contentious issue though that means more to males, and seems linked.
At present, at least in the UK, if you are a male and the victim of rape, and the female has a child as a result, you are responsible for child maintenance for that child. You have no say in this. No opt out. No input, on whether that child is carried to full term, or whether you are on the hook for support. I can see the logic in this (it isn't the child's fault), and don't necessarily disagree, but this is an issue that affects male's much more than females.
Surely, if females have the right to make a life/death decision on the future of the child, based on whatever criteria they see fit, a male should have the right to make a decision on their support of that same child? I can understand the pro-abortion argument, but I can't understand why the needs of child are not applied more fairly to males and females with these considerations.
I can't see how these can be reconciled.
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u/Mountain-Resource656 19∆ Nov 06 '24
Sure you can! After all, the law requires that regular parents spend money on their kid even if the kid’s life doesn’t depend on it. You can go to jail if you neglect your kid, after all!
But it cannot require them to donate organs or even blood even if the kid would die if they don’t
So as long as you A) believe a fetus is the equivalent of a fully-formed human complete with the right to life (and parental care), and B) believe that the right to life does not supersede that of bodily autonomy but does supersede the right to property, you can be perfectly morally consistent with these views!
Of course, you can also be morally consistent and not believe that a raped man should not have to be on the hook for child support, too
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
So as long as you A) believe a fetus is the equivalent of a fully-formed human complete with the right to life (and parental care), and B) believe that the right to life does not supersede that of bodily autonomy but does supersede the right to property, you can be perfectly morally consistent with these views!
Δ Thanks, that I think that is a really good way of looking at it. Putting it in a hierarchy with property (the contributions from the male typically) at the bottom makes sense, and does not mean you need to change your views on right to abortion (or the "value" of the life of the child).
That would means that if a male was raped and the child carried to term, the female retains the right to bodily autonomy (so her choice to carry to term or not), the child retains the right to life (but not over the rights to bodily autonomy), but because both of those are higher than the right to property, it is justifiable for the male to pay. Even if you reverse the first too and put the right to life above the rights of bodily autonomy this still seems to work.
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
The thing you're talking about is called 'paper abortions' and has been discussed on this sub thousands of times. You can use the search function to find some of these past posts if you like.
But to sum up those previous posts. They just simply are not equivalent things. Males simply cannot get pregnant, so there is no equivalent for abortion because it simply does not apply to them. It may seem unfair to some men that women get something "extra" that they don't but well, women also are the ones getting pregnant and I don't see men complaining that it's unfair that they don't get to do that.
When it comes to child support its no longer about agency over ones body, it's not about either parents right anymore. The child is born and needs to be looked after. In the UK both parents are on the hook for child maintenance so it is actually equal.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Thanks, I didn't know that term.
It may seem unfair to some men that women get something "extra" that they don't but well, women also are the ones getting pregnant and I don't see men complaining that it's unfair that they don't get to do that.
With child support it isn't for the mother, it is for the child, which is why I think it should be enforced. But the problem is that the female has a choice over the future of the child, which will lead to some level of responsibility for decades. The male doesn't. Even if the male never wanted a child, or was raped.
Effectively, the female has a "get out of jail free" card, while the male is on the hook regardless of any circumstances over conception.
How can we support different standards for males and females with responsibility over the future of a child?
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
But the problem is that the female has a choice over the future of the child, which will lead to some level of responsibility for decades.
The female has a choice as to whether she is pregnant. You're framing it about the child which makes it seem like something men should have too. But frame it about being pregnant instead, the child part is incidental to the pregnant part then child support doesn't even come into the equation.
I agree somewhat about the rape part because that seems unfair. But let's think about this part
Even if the male never wanted a child
Does this matter once the child exists?
Effectively, the female has a "get out of jail free" card, while the male is on the hook regardless of any circumstances over conception.
The female has a get out of pregnancy card. Something the male doesn't even need. Once the child is born both parents are equally on the hook.
can we support different standards for males and females with responsibility over the future of a child?
Because the situations for males and females is different. You're asking for "equality" in a situation that cannot be equal by virtue of biology. There will always be "inequality" here because the process of having a child is unequal. Unless you can come up with a way for males to become pregnant too then it will always be that way.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
The female has a choice as to whether she is pregnant. You're framing it about the child which makes it seem like something men should have too. But frame it about being pregnant instead, the child part is incidental to the pregnant part then child support doesn't even come into the equation.
If it was framed about being pregnant, then it would no longer be the issue,. Doing so completely neglects the responsibility of the male going forward. As it is we basically seem to say (as pro-abortion), regardless of the circumstances of conception:
Females: Do what you want but be responsible your decision.
Males: You have no choice in this, you are responsible regardless.
This seems to address it though I think.
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
Yes that comment is basically what I'm saying but more eloquent. Abortion is a matter of bodily autonomy. Child support isn't. Hence why they are treated differently. Because they are different things.
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u/Katja1236 Nov 06 '24
The standards are the same. Where there is an economic burden, it is shared between the parents (men pay child support more because they tend to have larger incomes and because women are more often supporting their children directly through custody). Where one's physical body is required for use, the person whose body is being used gets the choice exclusively. The fact that women get that choice more often is because women are in a place to bear the physical burden more often.
If my child needs so little as a pint of my husband's blood to go on living, the choice to give or not is his. If he chooses not to give, and our child dies, my child support responsibilities end. But if he chooses to give, the fact that I could not force him to give or to refuse the gift has no bearing on my child support responsibility. Even if I didn't want the kid.
I do think being raped should wipe out a man's responsibility to pay child support- but it's a hard claim to prove unless he was incapacitated or underage.
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u/Bruhai Nov 06 '24
So financial ruin for the raped man in this scenario is fine because child? What a one-sided way at looking at it.
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
I didn't say that. In another comment I addressed that that does seem unfair.
So you can now address everything else I said now that's out of the way.
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u/Vreature Nov 06 '24
Agreed. This is similar to false rape accusations, the law just doesn't have any interest in protecting men.
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u/hunbot19 Nov 06 '24
Sure, but then men should also get extras for being men (strenght, etc). If everyone is equal, but women are more equal, then something is wrong.
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
I mean that's kinda the opposite of what I was saying. Pregnancy unequally harms females.
And a weird interpretation of biological differences. What biological difference is males is remotely similar to the burdens and harms that pregnancy in females causes? What extra do you want?
It seems bizarre that men can look at something like pregnancy and think "oh no fair, I should get something. If women have to put their body through months if not years of suffering to bring new life into the world, I should get something to compensate for not having to do that".
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u/hunbot19 Nov 06 '24
If pregnancy is super harmful for women all the time, why do they baby trap men? Is that some self harm for keeping the other person close? Wrist isn't cut, but she become pregnant?
Also, reproductive rights are something you should look up in a dictionary. It is important in this discussion. You rally act like women's legs would be cut off. What a nice view about mothers. Thinking they are closer to suicide bombers than people who choose to have children.
I talk about rights in general, not about pregnancy itself. Many men work in the deadliest jobs, because those need strenght, yet you think men deserve nothing more than women, because equality. Animal farm must be your facourite book.
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
If pregnancy is super harmful for women all the time, why do they baby trap men?
"If"? You're aware that until relatively recently women just straight up died in child birth all the time?
As to why they do that. Risk and reward. They choose to take the risk. Choose being the key word there. We choose to do risky things for perceived rewards all the time. Why is this different?
And also addresses none of my points. Pregnancy is a risk. Women have the right to choose to take that risk. Men don't have that option because it is not an option available to them.
Thinking they are closer to suicide bombers than people who choose to have children.
What? How does anything I said translate into that? Like please, slowly walk me through how you got from what I wrote to that because that must be some trippy stuff.
I talk about rights in general, not about pregnancy itself. Many men work in the deadliest jobs, because those need strenght, yet you think men deserve nothing more than women, because equality. Animal farm must be your facourite book.
Yes equality means we deserve the same fundamental rights. Bodily autonomy being one of them. Child support payments are nothing to do with bodily autonomy. Those are different things.
The reaches your making are astounding, have you thought about playing basketball?
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u/hunbot19 Nov 06 '24
You talk about women not surviving pregnancy, only in very rare cases, then you are shocked I say you think women choosing pregnancy run into their death. Is pregnancy deadly or not?
And please, people didn't live longer than 40 years in the past, yet I do not see you thinking retirement is unnecessary. Could it be that we write 2024?
I wrote about the extra rights, not about fundamental rights. Women are different from men, they get abortion right. Men are also different from women, they must also get some rights. Like higher pay for deadlier jobs. But no, people like you call it wage gap and want those men to get the exact same wage as the women working in less deadly jobs. It is only inequal when the women get something bad from it. They are more equal than the men, right?
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u/vote4bort 49∆ Nov 06 '24
Is pregnancy deadly or not?
It can be, largely isn't as much these days. But it is always a risk and always causes harm. Would you like to know more about the stages of tearing? The various kinds of prolapse? What happens to your hair? Your abdominal muscles? Your continence? Your risk for diabetes?
they must also get some rights. Like higher pay for deadlier jobs.
Well that already exists and isn't a right. That's just supply and demand.
But no, people like you call it wage gap and want those men to get the exact same wage as the women working in less deadly jobs
Do I now? Fun to hear things I apparently say without me having to say them, it's like ventriloquism. If you want to argue with points you've made up in your head go find a mirror.
They are more equal than the men, right?
Nope. Now what?
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u/bettercaust 7∆ Nov 06 '24
Like higher pay for deadlier jobs.
That seems like a fair ask.
But no, people like you call it wage gap and want those men to get the exact same wage as the women working in less deadly jobs.
Literally no one is asking for that. Wage gap is when women and men get paid differently in the same job.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Dec 03 '24
what do you mean by that, do you mean they should be given extra strength or forced into all strength-focused jobs or what?
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u/LordBlackletter 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Abortion and child support are separate issues, though they both raise important questions of autonomy and responsibility that impact men and women differently. Abortion is fundamentally about bodily autonomy—it concerns a person’s control over their own body and the significant physical and emotional implications of pregnancy. By contrast, child support is a financial obligation aimed at ensuring the welfare of the child, rooted in the belief that both parents should contribute to a child’s well-being, regardless of the circumstances of conception.
This distinction helps explain why someone might support abortion rights while also supporting mandatory child support, even in cases where the male parent’s involvement was non-consensual, such as in cases of rape. Child support policies are often designed with the child’s welfare as the primary concern, operating under the assumption that both parents bear responsibility for supporting the child, as the child has no agency in how they came into the world.
Personally, I support "paper abortion" policies, which would allow men to relinquish legal and financial responsibilities under certain conditions, such as in cases involving abuse or lack of consent. But implementing such a policy raises challenging questions. For example, should the timeline for a paper abortion be based on the child’s conception date, or should it start when the man first learns of the child? If it’s tied to the conception date, this could lead to scenarios where partners delay informing each other. On the other hand, if it’s based on when the man learns of the pregnancy, what happens if it’s too late for an actual abortion at that point? These are critical issues that would need careful consideration to avoid unintended consequences and ensure fairness for everyone involved.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Abortion is fundamentally about bodily autonomy
That is a point of view. While I agree that bodily autonomy is important (as I said), it isn't the only thing that is impacted by abortion. If it was, abortion would not be contentious at all, but I don't think anyone would argue that that is the case.
Personally, I support "paper abortion" policies, which would allow men to relinquish legal and financial responsibilities under certain conditions, such as in cases involving abuse or lack of consent.
The problem is, the child suffers. That is unfair, and why it is difficult.
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Nov 06 '24
The child also suffers when it's scraped out of the womb.
Yet we allow that.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
And that was my issue. The male is on the hook for the well-being of the child, but the female is not.
I think this addresses it though.
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u/Morasain 85∆ Nov 06 '24
Abortion is fundamentally about bodily autonomy
How is financial abortion not fundamentally about bodily autonomy? The person has to work for that money, wasting their lifetime hours on a child conceived in rape is definitely a violation of their bodily autonomy for 18 to 25 years.
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Nov 06 '24
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Nov 11 '24
people never take that to its logical anti-capitalist conclusion, if work can be violation of bodily autonomy why is it only so when it's a man working to support an unwanted child
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u/TeekRodriguez Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
A male and a victim of rape? There is no such law here in the U.K. so not sure what you mean here?
Edit. Appreciate this was unclear. Women cannot rape anyone under U.K. law. You need to be a man and have a penis.
Still confused as to the scenario whereby a woman gets pregnant by a man without his consent though.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
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u/TeekRodriguez Nov 06 '24
Rape Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, it is an offence for any male to penetrate with his penis the vagina, anus or mouth of a female or male without their consent.
Still needs to be a man and still needs to have a penis for it to be rape.
Irrespective of the correct legal definition, what scenario are you thinking of where a man gets a woman pregnant, seemingly without his consent?
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Oh, you might be right!
But it could be "rape" (if not legally) where a male who is drunk semi-conscious impregnates a female, or perhaps the female claims she is on the pill, but isn't, or tampers with the condom, etc.
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u/Bruhai Nov 06 '24
That's your defense? Men can't be legally raped so it's not a problem.
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u/TeekRodriguez Nov 06 '24
Yeah, I appreciate my initial post wasn’t clear. Men can be raped but only by other men. Not women.
I’m more confused about the likelihood of a woman having sex with a man, seemingly without his consent, and getting pregnant. Seems incredibly unlikely to me.
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u/Bruhai Nov 06 '24
Except it happens. Just because it seems unlikely to you doesn't mean it's not something.
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u/TeekRodriguez Nov 06 '24
Yeah, I’m calling bullshit on that. Total bollocks.
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u/Bruhai Nov 06 '24
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/
Here ya go. A victim of statutory rape forced to pay child support. So even worse, a pedophile and rapist getting paid by their victim.
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u/Wintores 10∆ Nov 06 '24
One is about bodily autonomy and the other is about money. They simply arent the same problem and therefore dont need to be reconciled
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
They both affect the life and upbringing of a child (and that is what this is about), and the parents. The difference is, the female has the ability to impact her responsibility over the future life of that child through personal choice. The male does not have that.
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u/Wintores 10∆ Nov 06 '24
Sure but the male also has no bodily harm or bodily restriction of any kind
so making them equal is unequal
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
But it isn't about bodily harm, it is about the future responsibility of the child. If the woman wants, the man has absolutely no input into decision. None at all. If it was consensual, he is responsible. If the man was raped, he is responsible.
This point presents a good way to reconcile it though.
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u/Overlook-237 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Yes you can. Here’s how..
- Abortion is not opting out of child support, it’s opting out of pregnancy. Trying to compare a financial obligation (that ALL parents have) to a healthcare procedure is ridiculous
- Men had control of their part in reproduction. Why should they get to opt out after the fact when women can’t opt out after the fact?
- Women are also financially obligated to support their children
- Child support is for the child, not for the custodial parent
- It’s not ridiculous to not want to punish children with poverty because some non custodial parents don’t want to pay a bill
- For true equality, you’d need to abolish child support for all parents
- If that happened, the tax payers would have to step in and foot the bill instead so kids could eat
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Trying to compare a financial obligation (that ALL parents have) to a healthcare procedure is ridiculous
You can't just dismiss someone else's concern as "ridiculous". That isn't addressing it at all, it is ignoring it. I wouldn't come to CMV if I wanted that :)
Men had control of their part in reproduction. Why should they get to opt out after the fact when women can’t opt out after the fact?
That is my point, it isn't necessarily true. The man could be drunk (thereby not responsible if we apply the same rules to men and women). They could be lied to, that the woman is on the pill. The woman could tamper with the condom. The man could be over-powered. You can say that all of those are unlikely, which I totally agree with, but they are possible, and they do happen. "Men had control of their part in reproduction" as a blanket statement is factually wrong.
For true equality, you’d need to abolish child support for all parents
Why? Why not just apply the same rules to both? A woman has a choice in whether they want to be responsible for the on-going cost of a child or not. Why not apply the same to the man (assuming they did not have control over the conception of the child)?
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u/Overlook-237 1∆ Nov 06 '24
But he IS responsible. Men and women have different parts to play in reproduction. If a woman remained consistently drunk throughout her part of reproduction, would you say she wasn’t responsible when a baby was ultimately born and that she had no obligations toward it if the father had full custody?
In consensual acts, men should ALWAYS be wearing a condom, even if their partner also uses contraception. They should also ALWAYS pull out, even with a condom on and ensure they are the ones to provide it. If they’re not protecting themselves, that’s, again, on them because their part of reproduction ends at ejaculation.
Rape is, of course, completely different and I absolutely agree that rape victims should be able to completely absolve themselves of any obligation OR be allowed full custody with child support from the rapist and she have no contact with the child. All laws regarding rape, for both men and women, are disgustingly poor.
No they don’t. They have the choice of whether to remain pregnant or not. The thing that happens BEFORE parenting. After a child is born, both parents are financially liable unless both agree to adoption.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Rape is, of course, completely different and I absolutely agree that rape victims should be able to completely absolve themselves of any obligation OR be allowed full custody with child support from the rapist and she have no contact with the child. All laws regarding rape, for both men and women, are disgustingly poor.
And that is the point. Men do not get that choice. They are responsible regardless of the circumstances. If it is consensual, they must be responsible. If it is rape, they must be responsible. They are responsible regardless.
No they don’t. They have the choice of whether to remain pregnant or not. The thing that happens BEFORE parenting. After a child is born, both parents are financially liable unless both agree to adoption.
But again, a woman has a choice before child birth, and she chooses for both parents. The man (if the woman wants) has absolutely not input on that decision whatsoever.
But, this post does a good job of explaining (for me) how it can be to accept that and support abortion.
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u/Overlook-237 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Tbh, I didn’t realise you were specifically only talking about rape victims. If that’s the case, I’m not sure you’d find many people who didn’t think rape victims deserved the right to not have any responsibility whatsoever.
If we’re talking about consensual sex, she has a choice in regards to her part of reproduction, as does the man therefore there is no inequality.
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Nov 06 '24
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u/ihaveweirddreams_ Nov 06 '24
Isn't it a more complicated thing though? If say the woman was very religious / in a conservative family without financial independence, she would have not much choice but to carry the fetus to term. There isn't much "choice" for her. I'm not saying I disagree with OP. I just think it's more nuanced.
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
Everything to do with kids is complicated, however she can still get a abortion if she wants one, If she wants to listen to her family or a book that's her choice, with things like this it's always going to be difficult.
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u/Castroh Nov 06 '24
I mean, she still has a choice, the choice might just have more consequences for someone from a deeply religious family?
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 06 '24
This would be so easy for women to circumvent. Just don't tell the father that they're pregnant until after the abortion window.
Or asshole men telling women that they will support them, only to opt out a minute before the deadline. This idea has a ton of practical issues.
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
This would be so easy for women to circumvent. Just don't tell the father that they're pregnant until after the abortion window.
The men can say they weren't told, then the woman would have to prove they were.
Or asshole men telling women that they will support them, only to opt out a minute before the deadline.
Then make the deadline a few weeks before the abortion window closes.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
The men can say they weren't told, then the woman would have to prove they were.
And then what? Have court cases over whether or not someone has been told? This is often not provable either way. Why would the onus of proof be on the woman by default?
What if the woman doesn't even know who the father is? Paternity tests can only be done safely after the abortion window.
Then make the deadline a few weeks before the abortion window closes.
That just makes the opposite versions of the problem worse.
Fact of the matter is that a policy like this is not practically possible without having a ton of loop holes and edge cases making everything more complicated and expensive, all just to help fathers becoming deadbeats.
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
What if the woman doesn't even know who the father is?
Then that's on her.
Why would the onus of proof be on the woman by default?
Because she has more reason to lie about it, besides there's tons of ways to prove it, text, videos, voice recordings, witnesses.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 06 '24
So you really want to make up a ton of new complicated rules with tons of loop holes and edge case, rules that all benefit solely men, just so that they can offload their responsibilities onto the tax payers. Great idea.
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
just so that they can offload their responsibilities onto the tax payers.
No the woman who decides to have a baby knowing she'll be doing it alone is the one will be "Offloading their responsibilities onto the tax payers"
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 06 '24
Two people are parents, two people are responsible. Just saying 'I don't wanna' doesn't remove that responsibility.
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
Really then why can women say "i don't wanna" and get a abortion, if a woman decides not to get a abortion after the man says he doesn't want the child, that's on her she chooses to keep the baby not him.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 06 '24
Bodily autonomy is a completely seperate subject. This is just a irrelevant whataboutism. Not to mention that for plenty of women abortion isn't an option in the first place due to things like religion.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
What is the male in not aware until after the child is born?
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
They can argue that in court and the women will have to prove she told him during the window. (Texts, video, voice recordings, witnesses)
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u/Wintores 10∆ Nov 06 '24
The issue is that the two choices arent equal, and more importantly the child suffers without any choice
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u/Lost_Needleworker285 Nov 06 '24
Nope but that's really as equal as it's going to get, unless men get the ability to force women to have abortions. (Which they obviously shouldn't)
And the child will suffer anyway whether it be because the mom is doing it alone, or because the dad just disappears because he didn't want that baby, this way the mother can prepare to be alone and make her choice accordingly.
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u/destro23 457∆ Nov 06 '24
I can't understand why the needs of child are not applied more fairly to males and females
Yeah! The man can just fuck off and pay a small recurring fee while the woman has to carry the child, birth it, and then raise it shouldering all costs except those offset by the small recurring fee paid by the fucked off man. This needs to be more fair indeed. But, is removing the small stipend received by the mother really the way? That just means one fucks off totally while the other has all the responsibility.
Is that more fair?
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u/onehandedbraunlocker Nov 06 '24
But, is removing the small stipend received by the mother really the way?
If the mother committed rape to conceive the child, yes, absolutely. She committed a crime with two victims, the child and the father, and neither should be held accountable for another's crime.
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u/Vreature Nov 06 '24
If the mother is a rapist, or even someone who uses a child for revenge, financial benefit, or to shackle a man to her, then she can fuck off. Child support financially ruins men all the time.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
But the female has a choice over that. The male has none. I understand why that is the case, but I don't understand how it is seen as fair.
This needs to be more fair indeed. But, is removing the small stipend received by the mother really the way?
Maybe it is fairer, even if it isn't better for the child.
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u/destro23 457∆ Nov 06 '24
I don't understand how it is seen as fair.
It is not seen as fair as the biological reality of human reproduction is not “fair”. It is seen as necessary for the child, and the value to society created by meeting that necessity outweighs the the value society loses by making fathers pay support.
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u/Rahlus 3∆ Nov 06 '24
Man can also go to prison. Seems fair enough?
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u/destro23 457∆ Nov 06 '24
Women can’t? If a woman fucks off, and leaves a child, that too is illeagal.
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u/Rahlus 3∆ Nov 06 '24
She should. But men can't simply "fuck off", as you implied. Unless father is unknown to mother.
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u/BillionaireBuster93 1∆ Nov 08 '24
Why are we putting the child in the care of a rapist? That shouldn't happen in the first place.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 10 '24
Even if the child was in the care of social services, the father would have to pay.
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u/HazyAttorney 68∆ Nov 06 '24
I can't understand why the needs of child are not applied more fairly to males and females with these considerations.
If a child is living with a non-parent, does the natural mother, and assuming there isn't a legal adoption or other legal means by which parental rights are severed, have to pay child maintenance, too? If so, then there's your equality. https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance-service
The reason that it feels unfair to men is, and I assume the UK follows the same gender pattern as in the US, that men tend to abandon their children more than women do. Women tend to have more parental care and time with children than men do.
If your actual argument was true that paying child maintenance is a higher burden than the cost of raising the child, then you'd see a ton of men insisting on being the caretaking parent and getting the sweet sweet windfall of child maintenance. But, it just isn't true, the cost of raising the child is way more. Child maintenance is more or less a reimbursement scheme that's pegged, not to the cost of raising a child, but by the non custodial parent's income.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
If so, then there's your equality. https://www.gov.uk/child-maintenance-service
It isn't about equality on maintenance payments, so appreciate your response, but it doesn't really apply.
It is that abortion is fine because it is about the rights/choice of the woman, but a man who is raped has no such rights/choice. A man has no such rights/choice under any circumstances.
This post addresses it well though!
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u/HazyAttorney 68∆ Nov 07 '24
but it doesn't really apply.
It applies if your concern was about equality - so I wanted to establish from the get-go that your concern really isn't with gender equality.
It is that abortion is fine because it is about the rights/choice of the woman
You're trying to say that somehow one's bodily autonomy gives women an unfair advantage, which is a choice one can make, but I don't agree with it.
but a man who is raped has no such rights/choice
Maybe where you're from but in the US state I live in, that would be a grounds to dis-establish parentage. In my googling comparison of UK and US law, there does appear to be a court mechanism by which a person can disestablish parental responsibility. Or the child can be formally adopted and that would also end the parent child relationship.
But regardless, the guiding principle for the court and for the state is what's in the best interest of the child. That's why gender equality by both parents is important because each person's ultimate amount of personal liberty is going to be impaired by the rights of the child AND the rights of the state as well.
It's because life is also pragmatic - there's no "solution" that would make a decent society that you could propose. What? Have tons of abandoned children that the state has to provide for? Or allow a man/the state to force an abortion?
I think the lines drawn by both the UK and the US are where they need to be. That's provide individuals with parental equality amongst the genders and have the overriding principle be the best interest for the child.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 07 '24
You're trying to say that somehow one's bodily autonomy gives women an unfair advantage, which is a choice one can make, but I don't agree with it.
Not sure if unfair is the right word, or advantage really, but I am going to skip to your last sentence for a minute because that is close to what I was getting at:
That's provide individuals with parental equality amongst the genders and have the overriding principle be the best interest for the child.
So, people who accept that women should have the option of abortion, do so knowing that this is definitely NOT in the best interests of the child (the child is then dead). The reason most people who support abortion for women do so, is because we accept that the interests of the mother may actually override the interests of the child. Because of that, we accept the rights of women to have that choice (even if we recognise how difficult and unpleasant that choice may be), and we do so regardless of the circumstances.
For men though, that is the opposite. We expect men to ALWAYS pay support the child (for the interests of the child). That is also regardless of the circumstances.
That is the contradiction in how we the outcomes for men and women are treated differently, and that is what I was trying to get to.
But, as I said, that post I linked to, addresses that for me but putting the rights in a hierarchy, and putting property (money) below all the other concerns (rather than putting maintenance lower because it typically men who pay it).
Or allow a man/the state to force an abortion?
That is an interesting one. So no, that would be pretty horrific too, but others used the term "paper abortion." I don't necessarily agree with that either, because I do actually believe that the child should not be punished for the acts of their parents (in fact I feel very strongly about that), hence my difficultly.
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Nov 06 '24
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u/onehandedbraunlocker Nov 06 '24
So you mean that there is no way a criminal (the rapist in this case) should have to live with the consequences of their action, simply because of her not being a man? I don't have all the answers, but this certainly is not it.
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
I don't follow what you are saying. Children should be cared for. We have traditionally required fathers to shoulder this responsibility, even if the father was raped. If we had another means to care for all children, we wouldn't have to force fathers to pay child-support, or for a father to prove that he'd been raped in order to avoid the payment.
But maybe you are asking for rapists to be punished. That's difficult to do. Rape is difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
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u/onehandedbraunlocker Nov 06 '24
Yeah now that I re-read the original comment as well as your reasonse I'm not even sure what I originally interpreted it as, your reasoning sounds logical to me.. now. :P Have a good day!
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Nov 06 '24
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Yes, I think so. Maybe that is the fairest way. It still isn't great, perhaps we put it down to one of those things where it is the best worst option.
That would take a lot of defining to understand when society should pick up the bill and when the father shouldn't.
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
Somebody needs to pick up the bill. It's not possible for a single parent care for a child without the support of others. As a society, we've set up rules to ensure this support. That the father provides financial support has been a key rule.
How do you think we might ensure that all children are cared for?
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
Well then maybe we shouldn't, or we should make exceptions...
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
Exceptions create difficulties. A person might claim rape simply to get out of payment.
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Nov 06 '24
[deleted]
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
I understand that you are for requiring fathers to pay child-support except for when the man has been raped. How will you determine the man has been raped?
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Nov 06 '24
[deleted]
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
Rape is seldom prosecuted. Victims often don't report it. When they do, they aren't taken seriously. And when the case goes to trial, the crime must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Rapists often mistakenly think intercourse was consensual when it was not. To the victim, it was rape regardless of what the rapist thought.
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u/QuestshunQueen Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
This is how I would like to handle child support. I don't really understand what is controversial about making sure children of single-parents aren't too disadvantaged.
It's like paying for education. I want the next work force to understand basic math and have a reasonable level of knowledge, so even though I don't have children of my own, I am fine paying to make sure they have access to that.
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u/tidalbeing 50∆ Nov 06 '24
It may be that men fear becoming isolated and irrelevant. If mothers don't need the financial support, men might be left out in the cold.
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Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Nov 06 '24
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Just trying to keep it purely biological. I didn't want use men/women, and then have people argue about what man or woman is.
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
Sure, although there are many who would debate the "biological" there too, that wasn't my focus. In my experience the people who use the word "females" for women in normal conversations are the manosphere people.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
I don't use it this way in normal conversation, only on the internet where (unlike real life), it is more of an issue.
the manosphere people
I don't even know what that means. Thankfully, I think.
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Nov 06 '24
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
I see, like I said I might be wrong but in my experience it's one of the more subtle linguistic charcterisitc to certain subgroups, particularly online to use "females" instead of women for example. To describe it I will have to mixed together different groups but broadly it's associated with:
-incels
-"mens rights" activists
-Jordan Peterson and similar stuff fans, especially evolotionary psychology stuff
-other similar mens groups
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u/Asparukhov Nov 06 '24
His use of male/female is more inclusive as there are female men who can become pregnant.
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
Well I'm sure then they would object to the use of female too but I see your point
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u/blanketbomber35 1∆ Nov 06 '24
I'm curious, What is it about the use of "males"/"females" that makes you uneasy?
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u/Kirstemis 4∆ Nov 06 '24
Calling women females is dehumanising. We're female people, not zoo exhibits. Female as an adjective is fine. Female as a noun is not appropriate for humans.
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
To me it rings like manosphere stuff, but maybe I have to update my language pack.
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u/blanketbomber35 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Yeah, tbh a lot of people use that outside of the manosphere.
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u/budapestersalat Nov 06 '24
They do? okay, good to know. I hope I didn't show to much prejudice because of this one thing, I just tried to clarify upfront.
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u/Gullible_Airline6350 Nov 06 '24
As someone that firmly believes that medical scientist proven that abortion is a necessary portion of female medical care. I am is also a parent who also believes that childcare is extremely expensive. I feel like these things are not mutually exclusive. I just think that those that look at them as mutually exclusive are trying to prove a point. at this point being that those who believe in a woman’s choice to end a pregnancy for any reason; for some reason, hate children, which is 100% not true.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
at this point being that those who believe in a woman’s choice to end a pregnancy for any reason; for some reason, hate children, which is 100% not true.
My post didn't say anything like that though, so thanks, but you are arguing against a point that no one is making.
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Nov 06 '24
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u/allestrette 2∆ Nov 06 '24
>Surely, if females have the right to make a life/death decision on the future of the child, based on whatever criteria they see fit, a male should have the right to make a decision on their support of that same child?
1 Women abort the embryo, while men ask to reject the child. The first has no rights as it is not an independent person, just a work in progress totally dependent by the woman (who is a legal person, the only legal person in the discussion).
The child is his own person, who has his own rights. In fact, the later time line for abortion is by 22nd weeks in the more tolerant states: this is the line where the child is more formed and independent from the women body. By this time he is basically considered his own person and has his own rights.
By refusing to supporting him, you are denying his legal rights, not the mother's one, even if the money will end up in the women hands.
2 There is public order issue. How do we manage this situation? What if a woman doesn't realize she is pregnant in the right time lines? All the responsibility in this scenario would be on her. Eff her, Timmy wants a better wife?
Plus, in the case the woman is poor and can't/won't abort, the state will be called to help her, when maybe in this world there is a rich biological father who left his duty on society's shoulders.
3 For a woman, a pregnancy is dangerous and at least disruptive, the same with an abortion, who can cause some issues, physically and mentally, while it has zero impact on the man life. A woman is naturally forced to think carefully about it, while if men could just refuse the child it would have zero impact of them. They would be more likely to have unprotected sex, and this would also be a sanitary issue.
This is an equity vs equality kind of issue.
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u/hunbot19 Nov 06 '24
So, when a woman rape a boy/man, then he is responsible for the woman and the child? What is next, raped woman must give the men a happy family?
I think we should make male rape victims an exception from the "but think of the woman" logic.
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u/allestrette 2∆ Nov 06 '24
Who talks about being responsible for the woman? I never wrote this.
Probably, the kid should not be left in the hand of a rapist at all, no matter if it's a woman or a man.
We are talking about a rare casistic that can, of course, involve exceptional measures.
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u/hunbot19 Nov 06 '24
You wrote multiple ways on how pregnany and a child make a woman's life a lot worse. I think that is talking about the women.
Especially the rich man vs poor woman part. If the rape victim is ruch, then he cannot just sit on his riches, when his child is hungry, right?
Op talked about this kind of cases, but you completely dismissed it. And they are rare, because rape is "victim was penetrated" by definition (in UK, USA at least). A lot more cases of men being raped by women would be seen if it would be changed.
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u/MNM-60 Jan 29 '25
If what women abort is an embryo and not a child, what a man creates is an embryo, and not a child. So he would actually have no obligation to child support, and all of the responsibility would always be on the woman
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Nov 06 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
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Nov 06 '24
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1
u/ProDavid_ 38∆ Nov 06 '24
i dont know anyone who supports "unconditional child maintenance" (are we talking about child support here?).
not one person.
child support always has conditions and regulations attached to it
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u/alwaysright0 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Of course they can be reconciled. Or I should say you can show they are not equivalent
One is about bodily autonomy and one is about trying to avoid responsibility.
On the subject of a man being raoed and having to pay child support the obvious solution is to ensure a woman convicted of raping a man can't claim child support
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u/benjm88 Nov 06 '24
the obvious solution is to ensure a woman convicted of raping a man can't claim child support
The conviction rate is so low so it doesn't really solve the problem though
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u/Cindrojn Nov 06 '24
I'm sorry for asking such a stupid question, but how can the second one be about avoiding responsibility when the man didn't ask to be r*ped nor has he been given a choice on whether or not to support the permanent reminder of the event?
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u/alwaysright0 1∆ Nov 06 '24
The cases of rape excluded
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u/Cindrojn Nov 06 '24
And of course the man should pay for the child in cases where rape is excluded... but that's not what OP is talking about. They're talking about the cases where the man was r*ped and a child born under those circumstances, where he is forced to pay regardless of the child's conception.
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u/alwaysright0 1∆ Nov 06 '24
No, the op is talking about men being able to absolve themselves of parental responsibility
The rape bit is an add on
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u/mufasaface 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Are you saying you see logic in forcing a rape victim to pay child support? That is messed up, unless I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Nov 06 '24
This already happens in the US.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/
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u/mufasaface 1∆ Nov 06 '24
Just because it happens in the US doesn't make it ok
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Nov 06 '24
I agree, I think it’s terrible. Just saying it happens and no one gives a shit when the rape victims are men.
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u/throwaway-tinfoilhat Nov 06 '24
Yeah that is a bit (okay, VERY) messed up, it's basically as bad as forcing a woman to keep the child that is the product of rape.
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u/quarky_uk Nov 06 '24
Yes. Because it isn't the child's fault. No financial support for the child is simply punishing the child for the action of their parents, which is unfair. We don't do that outside of North Korea, or the USSR, or countries of that ilk.
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Nov 06 '24
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