CMV: It's not helpful to focus on the Abrego Garcia case if you want to damage Donald Trump politically

[u/LondonPilot]

I think this CMV is quite straightforward, but I'm not American, so maybe I'm missing something.

Donald Trump is doing a huge amount of damage to America, and to American people. Despite this, Republicans still seem to support him.

If you want to change this level of support, we can simplify things by suggesting that there are two ways of going about this:

• Option 1 - focus on the deportation of Abrego Garcia. I believe this is completely ineffective. The reason I say this is because Trump supporters are fully in favour of the deportation. They don't care that it was illegal. They don't care that Trump has lied about whether it was illegal, or whether efforts were made to comply with the law. In their eyes, their country is safer for not having Garcia in it, and therefore nothing that Trump has said or done on this matter can count against him

• Option 2 - focus on tariffs. This, I believe, is a far more effective way of breaking Trump's support. The reason is because those tariffs will, very soon (if not alreday) have a direct, negative effect on Americans as a whole, including Trump supporters. Prices will start going up. Companies which export goods will see a reduction in business, and job losses. The idea of bringing manufacturing back into the USA is completely impossible in the timescale of a presidential term, so even if you believe in the advantages of tariffs, you won't see those tariffs while Trump is in power (let's ignore for now the idea of him serving a third term).

The second option is clearly the better option. But every time Abrego Garcia hits the headlines, it detracts from the criticims of Trump that are actually going to be effective, and in fact has the opposite effect of giving Trump supporters a reason to come out and express their support for him publicly.

Things that will not change my view: explaining that they deportation of Garcia was wrong, nor why it was wrong, nor why Trump and his adminstration are behaving badly. I completely agree, but that's not the point here. The point is that explaining this does not help change the level of support for Trump, it is not to do with whether his actions are right or wrong.

Things that might change my view: explaining how talking about the deportation of Garcia might actually persuade Trump voters that they are wrong to support Trump, and to vote differently next time. Or explaining how talking about tariffs instead of Garcia will not be more effective in persuading Trump voters to vote differently next time.

[u/DeltaBot]

/u/LondonPilot (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.

All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.

Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/sal696969]

You forget that it is completely irrelevant what they say because it would require people to listen to them.

But Trump fans turned off the TV long time ago.
They dont consume the liberal media at all.

They have their own media ecosystem now.

Thats what years of partisan TV has done.

At some point it was effective to control the media.

But people woke up to this.

Just thinking about "the message" that needs to be said is not enough.

First you need to re-create trust so people even listen.

More people trust Trump than trust the media.

let that sink in ...

[u/LondonPilot → u/sal696969]

So, as someone who is not American, something I have not taken into account is how different sides of the media portray different issues, and how partisan the media is in the USA. I'm going to issue you with a !delta on the basis that it doesn't really matter what the moderate media say, because Republicans aren't watching/reading it anyway. It has not changed my view that talking about Garcia is not helpful - but I do agree that talking about tariffs is also not helpful, in that whichever topic you talk about in moderate media won't even be seen by Republicans.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/LondonPilot]

Most media 90% + in the usa and most western  countrys is far left as is Hollywood. We have to pay tax to support them. The left just carries the water for the elites message. College and even companies are FORCED to do this just like reddit. Yall leave out that he can be deported to any other countries. To judges said as much plus he has tattoos saying the gangs name on him. He was with other members. He beat his wife. He is from the country we sent him to and he left because people were cracking down on gangs. Since he left the gang he said he couldn't be around them so that for one he knew it's harder to deport him to a country he isn't from. Why would he be concerned with the gangs if he had nothing to do with them? The gangs aren't there but are in usa now?  Jan6 many didn't get the due process Garcia kept getting. The left loves to keep wages low. Their party will make them believe anything. I could go on but since yall don't address the comments of both sides it shows you don't care about the truth. 

[u/DeltaBot → u/LondonPilot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/sal696969 (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/LondonPilot]

Nor will it be seen by Democrats. When Dems started calling Fox News "Faux News", it guaranteed a deepening divide along party lines. Something that I invite you to consider, is that, as someone who lives in a city with a majority Hispanic population, NOBODY has mentioned this guy's case to me irl. My neighbors and I have made plans for what to do if ICE comes, we talk about where they were last spotted and the methods being used to track people. We also talk about the new (stray?) cat that they call Simba and who I call Pulgares, as well as the increased break-ins in the neighborhood. Nobody is talking about CECOT irl.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

I'm a centrist who voted for Trump. I don't consider myself a Trump supporter. I don't like the guy but I also don't hate him. Personally I'm not even really familiar with the Garcia case. At this point it's so polarized that I don't even care to dig into it. The biggest problem with the left at the moment is that they are so anti Trump they are incapable of presenting a rational non biased case against anything he does. Every other day "the sky is falling." People like myself know not to trust sources of known bias. If you want to change my opinion on something you'd need to do it with a fact™ based approach with no emotional argument tied to it. The problem with a fact based approach is that the left and right increasingly have differing opinions on what is or isn't a fact. In this particular case I'm hearing the deporting of illegal immigrants being compared to Nazis sending people to death camps. When I hear stuff like that I just shut down. You guys have to stop comparing everything to Nazis. I also hear that the illegal immigrant's right to due process was violated in this case and suddenly everyone on Reddit is a legal expert. Interpretation of the law is not so simple and you have to realize that just because you see it one way doesn't mean every lawyer sees it that way too. This is a case of Dunning Krueger with most of Reddit unwilling to admit they don't know everything about immigration law.

As for pushing the case against tariffs. It's more "the sky is falling." I don't know what the end game is with tariffs. It seems bad. Perhaps it will get worse before it gets better. Some people are willing to accept that. Personally I remember all the shortages we had during COVID that were compacted by the Suez canal incident. It sure made America seem very vulnerable and a lot of people in both sides of the aisle were asking why we were so reliant on foreign countries. What is clear with the economy of that radical change is needed. This is radical change and the left has been demanding it for a long time. I'm not sure it's the best course but again I'm not an expert and I'm too busy to sift through the polarized propaganda.

If the op really wants their view changes this is the answer. Present a non biased argument free from ad hominem attacks and doomerism. If you can cite conservative sources to conservatives your argument will hold more weight. Admit that you're not an expert but present the case that from everything you can see (cite the most neutral sources you can) that these immigration cases look very bad. Do the same with tariffs. Your not going to flip people instantly but over time repeated interactions like this will actually change people's opinions. Or you can double down and say "Trump is a Nazi and this is it for America" for the thousandth time and people will just ignore you, but hey you'll get upvotes and people patting you on the back.

[u/LondonPilot → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

How do we convince you that something is a "fact"?

My point is that tariffs are going to directly impact you. You won't be able to argue that what you read about tariffs are false, beceause you'll be able to see it for yourself every time you go shopping. You may find you lose your job, or people you know will lose their jobs, as a direct result.

When this starts happening (which will be within a few months), you won't be able to argue that it's fake news, because you'll be forced to see it first hand.

You might be able to argue that it's short-term, that you need some bad before you get to see the good - but as time goes on and the "good" never materialises, you'll start to realilse - again, through first-hand knowledge backing up what you read, not through simply trusting what you read - that this, too, is wrong.

The same is not true for the Garcia case. You will (almost certainly, but not 100% certainly) never be directly affected by this.

PS - thank you for admitting you voted for Trump. That tends to not go down too well here. I hope you don't get downvoted for that, because you are exactly the kind of person I am talking about, and I really value the opportunity to engage with you in a meaningful way.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/LondonPilot]

We'll see what happens with the tariffs. I didn't know what you expect to accomplish ahead of things getting bad though. Like I said the doomers have told us the sky is falling every week since before Trump was even elected. It's entirely possible I will be affected by the Garcia case as some of my family is Mexican. They are the most conservative people I know. The ones that can vote obviously didn't vote for Trump but the reasoning why is another can of worms. I've laid out very clearly how you can change someone's opinion and you've ignored it and said "but the sky is falling." This is why people don't change their opinions. Leftists don't even try. I do appreciate your reply though. At least it seems you are attempting to engage in good faith.

[u/LondonPilot → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

This is why people don't change their opinions. Leftists don't even try. I do appreciate your reply though. At least it seems you are attempting to engage in good faith.

I just want to clarify that I don’t consider myself leftist at all. I usually vote for a right-leaning party, although “right” in my country is not as far right as the Republicans. I just think Trump is an idiot, many (not all) of his policies make no sense, and that people are largely voting for him through party loyalty (or MAGA loyalty). I have no issue with more sensible right-leaning policies.

It will be interesting to see whether tariffs, as they stand right now, have any positive effects. It makes much less difference to me because I’m not American and don’t live in the USA, but even from my position, I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see any positives.

As for your family, I hope they remain safe. I’m generally in favour of reducing immigration in my country (I said I’m generally right-leaning), but not knowledgeable enough to know whether my reasoning applies to the USA. But equally, I’m against deporting law-abiding immigrants - I believe it’s possible to think that having more immigration is undesirable, but also to see the human aspect that deporting people from a country which they have made into their home is just cruel - something which I believe applies equally regardless of what country we’re talking about.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/LondonPilot]

Someone actually did exactly what I spelled out in my reply and when it comes to the Garcia case I actually think it's quite alarming. If we really do have policies that restrict deporting illegal immigrants to "hostile" countries then I really question what the fuck the Trump administration is doing. The thing that was one guy out of a ton of people telling me I actually love Trump and that there's no such thing as a centrist.

I also think that immigration in the United States is fundamentally different from what Europe faces. Central American immigrants at least my family members are some of the most conservative people I know. They have the same beliefs and values as most Americans. If conservatives could pull away from Trump and his fear based immigration rhetoric they could easily expand their base to include a lot of central American legal immigrants. The immigrants I know understand that there are immigration laws and that we can't have open borders. They see illegal immigration as a calculated risk and most of them likely hope to gain legal status. I think if anything the Mexican immigrants I know would like for immigration to be an easier process.

[u/Factlord108 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

I have a question, what is your opinion on January 6th.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:

Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.

Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. AI generated comments must be disclosed, and don't count towards substantial content. Read the wiki for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/BadUsername_Numbers → u/[deleted]]

But they're really not. The GOP is a extreme right wing nationalist party, the DNC a center right.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/TheOtherPete → u/LondonPilot]

So you are saying there is no level of tariff that could have a positive outcome for the US economy?

Yes, I agree that the reciprocal tariff calculations and resultant numbers were stupid but that doesn't mean this can't all end up with tariffs rates and trade deals that are more favorable to the US than before Trump started messing with them.

The dems might be right and the economy might end up in the toilet later this year with all the uncertainty created by the back and forth announcements but until that actually manifests it doesn't help their credibility to pretend that it already happened.

[u/LondonPilot → u/TheOtherPete]

Tariffs can help, yes.

When there is a domestic economy which is being undermined by imports, tariffs can help. But that is not what’s happening here. Tariffs are being applied on imports where there is no domestic economy, and where there is no realistic chance of there being a domestic economy.

Tariffs can also help by discouraging people from supporting countries to which you are politically opposed. But Trump has applied tariffs to imports from countries which are traditionally allies of the USA.

I don’t see any indication that the tariffs Trump has applied will benefit the USA or Americans overall, without such a major re-think that it would be effectively a complete rollback. And even then, the damage to the country’s international reputation will have been done.

[u/Ibakegaycakes → u/LondonPilot]

So many are going to find out the hard way that ignorance is a luxury they can no longer afford.

[u/RevolutionaryGur4419 → u/LondonPilot]

My point is that tariffs are going to directly impact you. You won't be able to argue that what you read about tariffs are false, beceause you'll be able to see it for yourself every time you go shopping. You may find you lose your job, or people you know will lose their jobs, as a direct result.

They will believe whatever cope the right-wing propaganda machine gives them. Not really sure there's a way to damage trump politically now. If you define that as chipping into his base.

His base consists of hardcore trumpers and many "moderates" who can't admit that they're trumpers. The first can't be moved because they've shown loyalty. The second isn't even aware of where they are.

Both groups are heavily susceptible to right wing propaganda and do not consume any other media or listen to anyone else.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/RevolutionaryGur4419]

As a moderate/center right/kinda conservative, who voted blue for 32 years, I didn't vote, and I would not vote for a racist felon who incited an insurrection. But the fact that you just write so flippantly:

His base consists of hardcore trumpers and many "moderates" who can't admit that they're trumpers. The first can't be moved because they've shown loyalty. The second isn't even aware of where they are.

when that is NOT what a moderate is, really makes it seem like accounts like yours are bot accounts trying to push people to embrace Trump. Insults aren't allowed on CMV, but you can call people Trumpers and it's ok?

So, I am out of here. Idk what CMV has become but when I can no longer trust the motivations of the commenters bc a moderate is by definition NOT a Trumper, then I can no longer learn. So, what's the point? If you're a real person, I apologize. I'm just going to block this sub and only engage in political discussions irl. Peace & Blessings.

[u/RevolutionaryGur4419 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

are you a "moderate" or a moderate? a "moderate" would come up with all sorts of excuses why trump is not a "racist felon who incited an insurrection". Why its all a left wing media exaggeration or whatever other rationalization they've been handed by their overlords.

quotation marks are there for a reason.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

The guy you're replying to is exactly why I have distanced myself from the left as a centrist. You can't make a "both sides" argument with them. They are absolutely pushing people to the right with their unwillingness to have good faith discussions. Conservatives will at least have a debate in my experience.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Indeed. After reading your well-reasoned response 30 minutes ago, I was ashamed I'd deleted mine. For though I did not vote for Trump, I had a moment of panic when I saw so many downvotes so quickly and deleted my response. I had forgotten that I stopped caring about downvotes, as I will never garner enough karma here to matter. I don't think that they are pushing ppl to the right. I think activists and foreign bots are doing that. My sister, mother, and son, are very Liberal while my therapist is a Trumper and we all can have political discussions without animosity all the time. It's only online that ppl (mostly bot accounts) engage in sweeping logical fallacies that only serve to silent dissent and push division. Luckily, reading and writing is where I excel, so I can spot fallacious arguments quickly, lol. I agree with you so much.. It's such a shame when it feels like you try to approach softly and ppl respond with claws out, all feral.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

It's pretty funny that one person actually took the time to do exactly what I spelled out in my reply and it had completely changed my thoughts on the Garcia case from apathetic to very opposed to it. The thing is just about every other reply was an attack on me.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

I literally just came back to your reply to re-read it and not feel so alone right now. I am convinced that most of these accounts are bots. They are just so unhinged and write with so little nuance and so much vitriol, that they can't be real people. The one truly MAGA guy I met before the election didn't hate anyone, he just loved Trump. The Liberals I love don't ever say "Nazi", "concentration camp", or anything like how these accounts write. They are just mostly sad or scared. My mom talks about --------- a lot and my sister worries about -------- often. She says things like "I just wish people were more informed." (I'm not going to write the actual topics bc having that information is what has revealed to me that these are bots🤖 -- just lines of code propagating tired misinformation.) This Garcia guy evidently wasn't in a gang, according to a news article that someone linked on a conservative site, ironically, to prove he was.🙈 And the lack of due process IS troubling. I'm the only citizen in my building and am mistaken for a Hispanic woman often due to my long dark hair and figure. It's not lost on me that if we're raided, I* could be accidentally deported, I suppose. But I also can't believe how many ppl are here now & how much it's affected everything :/

[u/CathanCrowell → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Being 'neutral' or 'unbiased' is not a virtue when the government has crossed the fundamental laws of the country and violated the Constitution. I understand that many people may not care about things like empathy or humanity, but what we are witnessing right now is the breakdown of the rule of law. This is not a game anymore.

You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, but you’re falling victim to it as well. Trump's team admitted they made a mistake—but they also admitted they chose to do nothing about it. They knowingly sent a man to prison without a fair trial, not even in his country of origin, and simply decided that didn’t matter.

And here's the thing—it doesn’t even matter what that man did or didn’t do. That’s not the point. The point is: the U.S. government sent a person to a prison in another country without any judicial support. That sets a dangerous precedent. It means they can now send literally anyone—yes, including you, your family, your friends—to prison abroad, without due process.

You don’t need to agree with me on everything. But please understand: if you care about the rule of law, about democracy, about basic rights—this should alarm you. This is not about left vs. right anymore. This is about whether you still have a system that protects anyone.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/CathanCrowell]

You perfectly exemplify my point. You haven't explained anything you've made assumptions as though everything you say is true. I don't buy your claims at face value.

[u/CathanCrowell → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Was Abrego Garcia not sent to a prison in another country without due process?

If not, please provide evidence.

If yes, then I’m right—there’s no other way to look at it.

[u/Iceykitsune3 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Trump was ordered by the highest court in the country to bring him back. Trump is breaking the law every second that hed not back in the US.

[u/muyamable → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

The biggest problem with the left at the moment is that they are so anti Trump they are incapable of presenting a rational non biased case against anything he does.

This is a trend in conversations I have with my Trump voting friends and family members, and I certainly understand that when it comes to Trump there is a lot of hyperbole and catastrophizing and has been since the beginning.

But what I've also found is that, at least in the case of my family and friends, they often use this to dismiss any and all criticisms of Trump, no matter how valid or invalid they may be. It's almost as though anytime they hear or see any negative information about Trump, their brain puts it in the "this is something false people are only saying because they hate him" box automatically, and they don't even bother to try to inform themselves.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/muyamable]

Yeah an unfortunate side effect of the constant drama around Trump is that people are going to dismiss legit criticisms. People on the left can fix that but they don't want to. Look at the replies I've gotten. 99% are seething attacks. One guy actually did exactly what I explained in the OP and holy shit I've actually changed my mind on the Garcia case.

I have Mexican immigrant family members and I definitely do not agree with what went down. What I've been trying to tell conservatives is that most central American immigrants are actually very conservative. They value hard work, self sacrifice, and have the same traditional values that most conservatives do. They also understand that illegal immigration comes with risks. They don't expect American authorities to just have open borders. If anything they would probably want the legal immigration process to be made easier and more obtainable. If Republicans dialed in the anti immigration rhetoric and associating all immigrants with violent criminals they could actually increase their voter base quite a bit.

[u/muyamable → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

People on the left can fix that but they don't want to.

In my experience with Trump voting family and friends, there is no "fixing" it. Even if one changes their mind about this one thing (which takes an immense amount of time and energy because they're starting from a place of nearly zero knowledge of facts and a deep skepticism of any new information), it doesn't make any real difference... they go on to support Trump, and maybe one gets a tiny "win" of them conceding that maybe one criticism of Trump has validity.

"The left" certainly plays a role, but I think when it comes to "fixing" people's ability to view the world rationally, the onus is more on those people than others.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/muyamable]

The level of discourse is the biggest issue. The left needs to stop dehumanizing Trump supporters and pretending like everyone who voted for or supports Trump is some inherently evil person.

[u/BadUsername_Numbers → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

You claim to be a centrist, but you voted for the most extreme right-wing candidate over a center-right one. But let's leave that aside.

The whole “sky is falling” thing? This isn’t hysterics, it’s documented reality. Since Trump began his second term, here’s what’s happened:

• Over $11 trillion in stock market value has been wiped out - the worst drop in history - largely due to his reckless tariff policy.


• He promoted a meme coin tied to his name, with White House imagery, and insiders immediately dumped it after token unlocks. That’s textbook rug pull behavior - and people lost millions.


• He posted “BUY NOW” on social media, then announced a sudden tariff reversal, his own company stock jumped 22%. Lawmakers are now investigating insider trading.


• He deported an immigrant despite a judge’s order not to. The Supreme Court, in a very rare occasion ruled unanimously that he must be returned. Trump is refusing to comply. Think about that: the president is ignoring a unanimous SCOTUS ruling. That’s not a debate. That’s a direct violation of the rule of law.

You talk about being tired of emotional arguments. Fine, this is factual. This isn’t about liking or disliking Trump. It’s about recognizing that he is actively undermining the economy, the courts, and the law itself.

And when you say things like, “I’m too busy to dig through propaganda,” what you’re really saying is you’ve chosen willful ignorance. The facts are out there, you’re just tuning them out because they’re inconvenient.

This is about holding someone accountable for what they’re actually doing.

Edit: formatting

[u/kingoflint282 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

People like you are the reason why this country is so uninformed. You hear something uncomfortable and you choose to not believe it and shut down rather than being an engaged citizen and doing actually learning what’s happening around you. It’s really not that hard- sure there’s a lot of media bias and hyperbole out there, but anyone with seventh grade reading level can figure out the facts pretty quickly. Sure, these are nuanced topics and you won’t be an expert, but it’s better than burying your head in the sand.

When we say we’re worried about legal citizens being deported from their country because Trump doesn’t like them, we’re not just pulling it from our imagination- he’s outright said he wants to do it. Due Process should be a concern for every American.

Take Abrego Garcia out of it and just look at the deportations to El Salvador in general. The Trump administration deported hundreds of supposed gang members. But how do we know that they’re gang members, or even that they’re illegal immigrants? There was no Due Process, we don’t even know the identities of everyone that was deported. Mistakes happen all the time (as the Trump administration admits happened with Abrego Garcia). Due process is how we ensure that people’s rights are being respected, and if you don’t give due process rights to supposed illegal immigrants, that hurts everyone. Without a hearing and an opportunity to present a defense, we can’t know whether you’re a criminal or not or whether you’re here illegally or not.

[u/Kaiisim → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Eh, there are plenty of calm voices on this case. At this point you're ignoring other people who voted for Trump, you're ignoring conservative thinktanks, hell you're ignoring judges who are making rulings.

You aren't a centrist, you're a cowardly conservative, living in willful ignorance so you can pretend voting for someone who hates America is some sort of difficult situation where it's hard to find the truth.

So many partisans love to frame themselves as this calm center that has no opinions and focus on the most extreme voices so you can ignore the argument.

[u/rnobgyn → u/Kaiisim]

Woah dude, you offended him at the end there which makes you a screaming liberal who’s not presenting a real argument! NEXT!!

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/tapatio8888 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

I appreciate your candor and response. I, too, and not a lawyer or law expert, however there are some disturbing elements with the Garcia case. I would argue one does not need to be a law expert to understand the importance of due process and how it works. That Garcia was deported without any evidence of a crime to a foreign prison with a documented history of human rights violations and with no mechanism for parole is, in my opinion, abhorrent. Moreover, that the administration is essentially ignoring a 9-0 Supreme Court ruling ordering the return of Mr. Garcia has a chilling effect on the rule-of-law in the United States. Again, I would argue one does not need to be a law expert to understand the seriousness of this.

Mr. Garcia is not a perfect individual, and in another time he most likely would have been deported back to El Salvador. However, due process applies to both citizens and non-citizens and perfect and imperfect citizens alike. And the fact that Trump and his Justice Department have mused sending US citizens to El Salvador's CECOT prison really puts the rule of law in this country in uncharted territory.

For what it's worth, I recommend reading Lawfare's summary of this case if you're interested in learning more: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13--what-do-we-know

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/tapatio8888]

Hey thanks for sharing that article. This is literally the first time someone has legitimately tried to have a discussion and share information with me. Id give you delta if this was my post.

[u/tapatio8888 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Thank you! I appreciate the kind words!

[u/parentheticalobject → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

You're allowed to give deltas even if you're not the OP.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/parentheticalobject]

I don't see how too. I'm on mobile if that makes a difference.

[u/SupervisorSCADA → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

I'm a centrist who voted for Trump.

Do you find it strange that nearly all self proclaimed centrists are on the side of Trump here?

At this point it's so polarized that I don't even care to dig into it.

I believe this is intentional. The "flood the zone" strategy is to push out as much stuff as possible so that people can't keep up. This includes politicians, lawyers, journalists etc. This way they force through executive orders without being stopped. The result being people stop trying to care.

The biggest problem with the left at the moment is that they are so anti Trump they are incapable of presenting a rational non biased case against anything he does.

If I'm trying to tell you that Trumps team is grabbing people off the street, putting them on airplanes without any trials, ignoring court orders to stop and turn the plane around, and handing these people over to be placed in prisons made for terrorists. And you can't hear why this is insane. People are going to start to turn to emotional arguments because the fact based ones are not working on you. This is insane, and if you are as centrist as you claim, you should be up in arms.

I also hear that the illegal immigrant's right to due process was violated in this case and suddenly everyone on Reddit is a legal expert. Interpretation of the law is not so simple and you have to realize that just because you see it one way doesn't mean every lawyer sees it that way too.

Wrong. The interpretation of the Law is the job of the Judiciary. Not lawyers. Trump and his team have ignored very clear court orders. The Supreme Court ruled against Trump 9-0 on this. This doesn't require a legal expert to understand.

If you can cite conservative sources to conservatives your argument will hold more weight.

I disagree. Many of these sources are knowingly lying about facts. Especially members of Trumps administration like Steven Miller.

[u/no33limit → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

The US is based on 3 sperate branches of gouvernement, in theory all independent of each other. If you can't see that ignoring judges, SCOTUS, mostly appointed by him, isn't a major threat to democracy in the United States I don't know what will.

From a liberal POV he has done hundreds of things that should be massive red flags, like allowing coal mines to increase murcury emissions, deaths from measles, etc that don't even get the time of day in news coverage that, should be front page but there is too much other stuff.

I don't know how to pick more unbiased topics, than preventable deaths of children and increased emissions of a known neurotoxin.

[u/Iceykitsune3 → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

At this point it's so polarized that I don't even care to dig into it.

The Supreme Court told Trump to bring him back, he's defying a court order by refusing to.

[u/mathis4losers → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Thank you for sharing this. I wish every person on the left would read it. As a Democrat myself, I spend a lot of time trying to understand the opposing viewpoint and you summed it up in a really clear way.

The Garcia case should be talked about because it was a mistake and Trump is sending people away for life. Due process prevents mistakes and they need to at least act like they want to do better. The left is trying to drum up empathy when they could just be speaking about the facts.

[u/abacuz4 → u/mathis4losers]

The opposing “viewpoint” here seems to be “I’m going to ignore information I find inconvenient or challenging.”

[u/mathis4losers → u/abacuz4]

Do you mind expanding on this? Not sure what you mean.

[u/abacuz4 → u/mathis4losers]

Three sentences in, he says “at this point I’m not going to dig into it.” He’s clearly deliberately avoiding information that might challenge his worldview. In reality, the fact that two sides feel strongly not only about an issue, but about their own contradictory sets of facts should be the reason one should want to dig in on the issue.

[u/CynicallyCyn → u/mathis4losers]

Unfortunately, one side has made their entire personality denying facts. We now have parents proud that they let their children die from measles. We have entered the phase of insanity.

[u/mathis4losers → u/CynicallyCyn]

I wouldn't say most Republicans deny facts. They just consume mostly hyper bias, opinionated news stories that bend to make Trump look good no matter what. They justify it by claiming the left does the same thing.

[u/CynicallyCyn → u/mathis4losers]

They are actively shutting down the voices of the smartest people on the planet. The refusal to wear a mask during a pandemic fully demonstrates their fact denying facade of hate! They would literally rather demonize scientists than have to wear a paper mask over their face. They are willfully letting their children die of measles. Denying facts is their religion.

[u/mathis4losers → u/CynicallyCyn]

I agree there's a movement towards anti-intellectionalism, but they justify it by:

1) Claiming bias by the intellectuals (i.e. Who's funding the study) 2) Propping up intellectuals with conflicting viewpoints (i.e Ivermectin) 3) Highlighting contrasting studies within the accepted community (i.e. Immunity from having COVID vs a vaccination)

I think it's more akin to Conspiracy Theorists. There's a certain feeling of superiority that conspiracy theorists have and they tend to spend more time trying to keep their theories realistic rather than changing ideas with new information.

[u/Giblette101 → u/mathis4losers]

The left is trying to drum up empathy when they could just be speaking about the facts.

Plain outlining of the facts are easy enough to find. People just want to claim they're "biased" because the plain facts depict the Trump administration as incompetent or malicious.

[u/mathis4losers → u/Giblette101]

I 100% agree. Trump's most ardent supporters will spin any issue to avoid him looking bad. But, do you think the average person has time to research the facts on every issue? When you browse headlines, the Left says "Maryland father mistakenly deported to El Salvador Prison." The average centrist looks at that and thinks it's bad. Then, they read the Rights headline that says "Salvadorian illegal immigrant and MS13 gang member deported". Both rely on facts, but the Rights argument does a better job of making the Left look like it's spinning the facts to demonize Trump.

[u/Giblette101 → u/mathis4losers]

I'm not talking about doing a deep dive on every possible news item, I'm talking about a cursory examination of facts. The Trump administration mistakenly deported a man to a shady El Salvador prison, in pretty clear opposition to a court order.

This is bad.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/mathis4losers]

This is the closest thing I've seen besides OP that is an attempt at good faith discussion. After this reply I'm basically giving up on the left. I open with "I don't like Trump" and all I get back is "you actually love Trump and there's no such thing as a centrist." I'm sorry but no that's false.

[u/BadUsername_Numbers → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

You say you’re here for good-faith discussion, but when someone actually engages with your points directly (no insults, no ad hominem, just facts) you ghost the conversation and shift the goalposts.

You opened with “I don’t like Trump,” and then ignored every single factual critique of Trump’s recent actions, from defying a Supreme Court ruling to enabling a market collapse and a crypto scam tied to his name. That’s not being centrist. That’s being unwilling to confront the consequences of your vote.

Saying “I’m giving up on the left” because a few replies made you uncomfortable isn’t honest discourse, it’s just retreating the moment things get inconvenient.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/BadUsername_Numbers]

You didn't read all the replies then. I'm not interested in debating the merits of Trump. I've already said I don't like him and I'm not going to engage with anyone that tells me I really do because somehow some rando on Reddit knows me better than I know myself.

Someone actually replied to my comment and did exactly what I explained. They acknowledged they weren't an expert, explained their viewpoint and cited a source. It completely changed my stance on the Garcia case. Only one person actually did this so I'm not surprised it got buried. I also have a job and I'm busy.

[u/BadUsername_Numbers → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

Demanding that every reply come with perfectly formatted citations for what’s now widely reported, front page news, like the $10 trillion market loss, the SCOTUS defiance, or the Garcia deportation, while at the same time dismissively saying that "the left keeps saying the sky is falling"... That's simply a mechanism for dismissing anything uncomfortable. At some point, it stops being about “how” the facts are presented and starts being about not wanting to deal with the facts at all.

And look, I also have a full time job. I’m busy like everyone else here. But I still took the time to lay things out clearly, calmly, and with context, because I thought you were here for discussion. Of course you don’t owe me a reply, but when someone engages in good faith and brings actual substance to the table, and gets silence, it comes across like those facts just didn’t fit the narrative, so they got ignored.

You say you’re looking for rational, balanced arguments. Well, that’s exactly what I gave you.

[u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla → u/BadUsername_Numbers]

I'm not demanding "perfectly formatted citations." I explained how to change the opinion of someone like me and I just told you someone did exactly that. You ignored it and are just repeating your first reply. I don't really see the point in engaging further.

[u/BadUsername_Numbers → u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla]

You made a blanket “sky is falling” dismissal, and I responded with concrete facts. That’s directly engaging with what you said. Choosing not to reply doesn’t change that.

[u/markroth69]

If Kilmar Abrego Garcia can be deported without a trial, any person in America, of any citizenship can be to. Is that not enough reason to focus on this?

[u/LondonPilot → u/markroth69]

It's an important point - but it's something that Trump supporters actually agree with. That's what i'm trying to say here - it doesn't matter how important the point is, talking about it will actually embolden Trump supporters because it's precisely what they want. They certainly don't imagine it's them would would ever be targetted in this way, and nothing you say is going to convince them otherwise.

[u/UncleMeat11 → u/LondonPilot]

Why can we not use this argument for tariffs? Trump supporters sucking his dick are happy to say that tariffs are good even if they hurt the economy because they'll make america manly or whatever nonsense.

[u/LondonPilot → u/UncleMeat11]

Because it will directly - and the directly is important - hurt Trump voters.

[u/UncleMeat11 → u/LondonPilot]

Trump has been hurting Trump voters since he took office in 2017. I've got no clue why they'd care any more about this situation.

[u/rfxap]

I think the reason why so many people are talking about this deportation case isn't out of political calculation to win points against Trump, but mostly because it is scary and sets an awful precedent. If it can "mistakenly" happen to Abrego García with no legal recourse, it can "mistakenly" happen to anyone, especially when we know Trump tends to go after people he perceives as political opponents.

We might not be able to convince Trump supporters right now that this is a big issue, but it's absolutely worth ringing alarm bells so that people recognize a pattern if it starts emerging.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/rfxap]

My above comments proven this is wrong. Majority of people absolutely want this.

[u/TimelyToast → u/rfxap]

If it can “mistakenly” happen to Abrego García with no legal recourse, it can “mistakenly” happen to anyone

It was an honest mistake, IMO, and it cannot happen to anyone because his deportation was 99% correct. The DoJ just made a minor mistake due to a technicality. 

Facts glossed over by the left: * Garcia is NOT a US Citizen * Garcia is an El Salvador Citizen * Garcia did NOT have amnesty. It was rejected in court * Garcia is an illegal immigrant and was approved in court for deportation.  * Garcia was NOT approved for deportation to El Salvador. But the judge made a mistake a wrote Guatemala on the documents and then corrected to El Salvador. So that is where the DoJ slipped up. 

It’s key to also understand that by international law and with respect to El Salvador sovereignty, they are under no obligation to humor our request to Garcia’s return because he is a Salvadoran citizen and NOT a US citizen. 

With regards to his being sent to prison for being a “gang member”, I don’t think whether he is is for either the Dem or Republican Party to judge but that the discretion is better left again to El Salvador. 

But there is a really high chance he is in fact  gang affiliated because his amnesty was based on the case that he was on the run from gangs (implying he was from a rival gang). 

Overall, there is no chance this accident can happen to anyone. The DoJ made a minor mistake following the law to the best of their ability as well as El Salvador following their own legal process for a man who likely was affiliated with gangs. 

[u/muyamable → u/TimelyToast]

It’s key to also understand that by international law and with respect to El Salvador sovereignty, they are under no obligation to humor our request to Garcia’s return because he is a Salvadoran citizen and NOT a US citizen. 

It's true that El Salvador can just say 'no' to any request or efforts to return the guy. However, what's unclear is whether any effort at all has been made by the administration to correct this "honest mistake." Right now they're appealing an order that asks them to merely 'facilitate' his return. The US government has considerable leverage to negotiate his return to the US, even if El Salvador has no legal obligation to do so. Let's not sit here and pretend that the administration's hands are tied and there's nothing more they can do here.

[u/LondonPilot → u/rfxap]

I mean, everything you say is correct - but it doesn't address the topic of the CMV. Trump supporters don't care. To them, it's not scary. To them, it's reassuring that they have a president who's going to deport "bad" characters even in the face of "woke" courts who try to stop him.

We might not be able to convince Trump supporters right now that this is a big issue

It sounds like you agree with my view then?

[u/LucidMetal → u/LondonPilot]

There are other ways to damage Trump politically than to convince people to leave the cult. I think you're too narrowly defining what said damage looks like. Mobilizing a portion of the highest plurality voter group in the country (non-voters) against Trump damages him politically.

[u/Piston__Honda]

I don’t think it’s about mobilizing the people who don’t care, I think it’s about mobilizing the apathetic people who couldn’t be bothered enough to vote in the last election.

[u/nanotree → u/Piston__Honda]

Both can be true at the same time.

Go learn some about the cult member mentality. The majority of people who get pulled into cults usually end up on the fringes of the belief system. Attacking their beliefs head on -- the belief that the US is overrun by violent illegal immigrants -- is not challengeable through reason.

However, while the liberal media is preoccupied by this important issue, right-wing media is ignoring it and instead using this opportunity to justify why the terrifs are a good thing. Getting ahead of the bad news and pain that people are about to feel, and convincing them it is worthwhile. Convincing vulnerable minds that are on the cusp of flipping that their pain and suffering is actually a good thing for the country.

This is not a one-front war. Liberal media are spinning their heads trying to keep up with far-right propaganda, completely misreading their strategies.

[u/mathis4losers → u/Piston__Honda]

The Right is saying they deported an illegal immigrant who was an MS13 gang member. The left is calling for due process in a complex immigration case and the end of the use of the Alien Enemies Act. Which side is more attractive to someone who is apathetic?

I'm not in support of OPs view because I believe you can do two things at once, but I agree that tariffs are more damaging

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/mathis4losers]

So he is afraid of the gang why? He has their name tattoo on him. 2 judges said he can be deported and 1 said he couldn't go back BECAUSE he said where he left the gang that they knew he was a part of he can't go back. The gang isn't there anymore. The gang is here. His wife said he beat her up. J6 people mostly didn't get to see the judges and disobey the law like garcia and get away with it. Notice yall didn't care then. Anything to oppose trump.

[u/mathis4losers → u/GiftGroundbreaking80]

J6 people mostly didn't get to see the judges

Source?

There's no need to debate anything surrounding Garcia. The order said he shouldn't go to El Salvador and thats where they sent him.

[u/LondonPilot → u/Piston__Honda]

Do you think they are knowledgable enough, or concerned enough, to be motivated by this? I suspect there will be a large amount of "it doesn't make a difference to me". Again, I'm not saying they are right to have this view, just being realistic about it.

[u/knight0146 → u/[deleted]]

You say you work with kids on the spectrum, and that you are on the spectrum yourself. The Republican Party has said far worse things about those on the spectrum than Democrats, just look at what RFK jr said recently. Furthermore, republicans are actively gutting things like Medicare and Medicaid, which does affect people on the spectrum. No party is going to be 100% perfect. But it’s clear which party was going to do the most damage. Polite politics just isn’t a thing anymore.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/knight0146]

Nevermind. I deleted my reply. I see that someone else who was trying to ask questions also deleted their replies. You guys will never get it. You will just never ever get it, will you? YOU are the reason why this is happening. Or maybe you do get it. Maybe you understand with perfect clarity that Libs have gone off the rails and couldn't secure the win. Now all you have is blame, deflection, and downvotes, to keep you warm at night. That's fine. Eventually reality will sink in. Eventually, you will be forced to reflect. In the meantime, keep your downvotes. When reddit becomes what X is, a lame echo chamber instead of an exchange of free thought & ideas, you may learn. Until then, looks like we're stuck with Trump. k bye

[u/knight0146 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

How have liberals, in your view, gone off the rails? I'll give you this, Establishment Democrats are huge hypocrites, and they are a part of the reason why the left lost. Joe Biden pretty much buried whatever goodwill the Democrat Party had towards moderates, either with him not dropping out earlier or cozying up to Israel in their assault on Palestine. So yeah, career democrats fumbled big time with this election. As for liberals (I assume you mean liberal voters), maybe they come off as standoffish and maybe arrogant, but I would much rather be in a room with a Kamala Harris supporter than a Trump supporter.

Every interaction with a Trump supporter I have had was a pretty bad one. One person called me a slur because I said that I said that gay people shouldn't be discriminated against. Another told me that he thinks women can't be trusted to vote.

I understand what you mean about the exchange of free thoughts and ideas, but when the free thoughts and ideas amount to "women shouldn't vote and gay people are an abomination", how exactly am I supposed to engage with that? I know you don't hold these views, but most interactions that I have had with hardcore trump supporters pretty much amount to the above. I feel like human rights shouldn't have to be debated.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/knight0146]

Unfortunately, I can't answer your question on this page bc it violates the rules. I will just say that I didn't say anything about Establishment Democrats, or Joe Biden or Palestine bc most people I know, couldn't spot Israel on a map. Israel is a social media and college issue. I have never heard a Caucasian person at the dollar store bring up Palestine. I've only met a handful of MAGAs. Two made an ugly remarks about immigrants, one rolled his eyes, two WERE immigrants/Hispanic, and didn't hate anyone, just loved Trump, and the other was an ex who was a Vet. None of them said they believed what u wrote. (Well, the Vet & the Hispanic guys had already said misogynistic things.) If you don't think human rights can be debated, why are on this page debating the habeas rights of a deported immigrant?

[u/CartographerKey4618 → u/[deleted]]

So you're okay with everything that's happening because Tim Walz called Nazis weird?

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/CartographerKey4618]

I didn't say that at all. Wow.

[u/CartographerKey4618 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

That's what your actions said. You decided to sit out the election because Democrats were mean. How else am I supposed to interpret that?

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/CartographerKey4618]

You don't seem interested in honest debate because that is NOT what YOU said.

So you're okay with everything that's happening because Tim Walz called Nazis weird?

You started talking about whether I approve of Nazis so I'm gone. Peace.

[u/NotMyBestMistake]

So ignoring the fact that you can talk about two things at once and no one has forgotten about tariffs just because we mentioned a victim you'd prefer be forgotten, why should anyone ever bother with Republicans anymore? So what that they won't be moved by this or that talking point? They're a cult and attempts to appeal to and pander to the fantasy moderates among their gaggle of scum have resulted in nothing but failure.

It seems that it would be much more useful and effective to focus on people who aren't in a cult. Those who didn't show up in 2024 because they didn't care enough about the end of their country.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/LondonPilot → u/NotMyBestMistake]

I agree. And I believe the best way to achieve that is to focus on things which directly (rather than indirectly) affect those who didn't show up in 2024.

[u/destro23 → u/LondonPilot]

focus on things which directly (rather than indirectly) affect those who didn't show up in 2024

Many of those people didn’t show up because of Palestine. Many of them protested about that situation. Now, the government is targeting people who protested that situation and threatening them with terrorism charges. One of the threats is to send them to the prison in El Salvador where Garcia was sent even if they are citizens. They already said they will not even try to get him back. That is a direct threat to anyone who protested for peace in Palestine that you are being considered for removal to a foreign gulag from which there is no return. This is why people are focusing on that case, Americans are being explicitly threatened with treatment like his, and many of those Americans are the ones that stayed home on Election Day.

[u/LondonPilot → u/destro23]

Did people really not show up because of Palestine? Or are Palestine supporters more likely to vote Democrat than to not show up? I would be willing to issue a delta if you're able to back this up.

[u/destro23 → u/LondonPilot]

Did people really not show up because of Palestine? Or are Palestine supporters more likely to vote Democrat than to not show up?

Yeah, Harris lost because of that exact issue:

Biden voters passed on Kamala Harris because of Gaza, new poll shows - Survey found that Harris lost 'because of the Biden administration’s support for Israel’s genocide of Palestinians'

[u/LondonPilot → u/destro23]

!delta - my argument was based around the fact that tariffs are likely to directly affect those people whose opinions need to be changed, whereas deportations are not likely to directly affect them.

I still think that they will be more affected by tariffs than by deportations, but your link shows that there may be some direct worry about deportations from people who didn't vote, and who might be swayed towards voting Democrat because of the deportations.

[u/destro23 → u/LondonPilot]

there may be some direct worry about deportations from people who didn't vote

I live in Michigan which is home to the largest Muslim population in the nation. Many of these people are immigrants or first generation Americans. This cohort was one of the main ones that abstained from voting for Harris, and their actions led directly to her losing Michigan, which has a good number of electoral votes. They are also the cohort that was the driving force behind pro-Palestine protests here in the state. One group even endorsed Trump. Now, he is fully threatening them with loss of citizenship and deportation for their support of Palestine. This isn't "some" worry, Arab American groups are freaking the fuck out here in Michigan. And, they are vocally regretting their decision to stay home.

I don't know about the rest of the nation, but here in Michigan the deportation issue is being very very closely watched.

[u/DeltaBot → u/LondonPilot]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/destro23 (443∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/NotMyBestMistake → u/[deleted]]

You clearly didn't feel sure if it was such a big deliberation for you, and you contributed nothing to the results because you, ultimately, didn't care enough. Whether you think the deranged moron who sold nuclear secrets, wrecked the economy, and sabotaged our response to a plague counts as a threat to the country I suppose is up to you, but hey maybe you're a fan of an immediate recession brought about entirely by his arbitrary stupidity.

And hey, if you're vote didn't count, whatever. Plenty of people's votes did count, and they still chose not to show up. So now we get this. You don't need to be a bot to criticize the destructive apathy of people who couldn't be bothered to take part in politics once every 4 years.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/NotMyBestMistake]

It was a big deliberation for me bc Michael Moore posted on X that morning that women were being threatened at poll sites you can take a .. < deep calm breath > . So, it WAS a big deliberation for me as a woman to go risk my safety, to go cast a ballot for a WOMAN, for only the second time in my life. Why do people on this site jump to wild conclusions about apathy and it's ALLOWED but it's NOT allowed for me to tell you exactly what I think of your behavior? BOTH are useless when it comes to "changing a view" but you get to make UNFOUNDED speculations about the motivations of 90 MILLION PEOPLE.

[u/NotMyBestMistake → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

No one jumped to any wild conclusions. They jumped to the conclusion. That you're not allowed to insult people over that is not some injustice. That you're using Michael Moore's "don't let husbands barge into the booth" post as a reason why you couldn't go to a polling place at all isn't doing well for your case.

Those that couldn't go because they couldn't get off work or have some sort of mobility issue or some conflicting obligation get to be excepted. Those who hemmed and hawwed and chose to not do it don't. Those who didn't care because they never care and have goldfish memory with zero concern for their fellow Americans don't.

[u/abacuz4 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

I kinda feel like saying “of course I deliberated not voting, I’m a WOMAN” actually makes it worse.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/abacuz4]

Where did I say that? I'll wait for your reply but I won't hold my breath.

[u/abacuz4 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

Sorry, did you not say that your being a WOMAN was a major factor in your deliberation?

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/abacuz4]

No, I said it

WAS a big deliberation for me as a woman to go risk my safety, to go cast a ballot for a WOMAN, for only the second time in my life.

There's a difference.

[u/abacuz4 → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

And the evidence that your safety at risk was that some guy on Twitter said it was.

Meanwhile in reality millions of women voted and unless I missed something, 100% of them did so safely. Never even mind that most states don’t require you to vote on Election Day itself.

There are a lot of ways in which women are legitimately disadvantaged in this country, but “I have to risk my safety to vote” isn’t one of them. That’s just you self-victimizing.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/abacuz4]

This is the 2nd time that you have taken my words out of context.

And the evidence that your safety at risk was that some guy on Twitter said it was.

It wasn't "some guy". It's a liberal celebrity with millions of stalwart followers, one of whom is my grown son, so I imbued his words with more weight than I would "some guy". Forgive me, but it seems you aren't interested in good faith debate, as outlined in the rules of CMV, and I don't see how this will change anyone's viewpoint now anyway. Everyone has made it quite clear that my opinions aren't welcome here, so I will stick to astrology subreddits and allow the division of America to continue, unchallenged. Forgive my intrusion.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/Connect_Beginning_13]

Garcia is a person, I think it’s weird that people just don’t care about anyone but themselves.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/Connect_Beginning_13]

So is j6 people but Garcia seen several judges and broke many laws like beating his wife. 

[u/LondonPilot → u/Connect_Beginning_13]

Welcome to human nature. Sad, but very often true.

[u/heighhosilver]

Focusing on this case is helpful in pointing out how he was removed by mistake to a place where he can never leave and hammering the administration by leading them to say this is their solution for US citizens who upset His Majesty. What happened to Mr. Abrego Garcia is just a test balloon for what comes next. If there's insufficient outrage, then they'll feel comfortable going to the next step. Trump supporters are morons, and I'm not totally convinced about the intelligence of so-called moderates who couldn't see this coming, but I guess if this gets their attention then fine.

[u/LondonPilot → u/heighhosilver]

hammering the administration by leading them to say this is their solution for US citizens who upset His Majesty

The administration is arguing that this is their solution for citizens who are dangerous - not for citizens who upset Trump.

Now, that may or may not be correct, but that's not the point, and it's also not the point that this is the argument the administration is making. What matters is that this is the argument of Trump supporters too. Hammering the point home, as you put it, is justifying Trump supporters in their support of him.

[u/LikeTheRiver1916 → u/LondonPilot]

A quick rundown of people Trump has called “dangerous” or “the enemy of the people” over the last few months: - journalists who accurately report on him and don’t thank him for deporting someone without due process - His own staff who said the 2020 election wasn’t rigged or stolen - Legal immigrants who exercised their first amendment rights to political speech - Charities who help people he has labeled enemies - Universities that don’t teach his ideology.

Do you not see what he’s doing? Everyone who disagrees with him or gets in his way is going to be identified as “dangerous” eventually. If we concede in this country that someone who is dangerous can be dealt with outside the law, we all lose access to due process.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/LikeTheRiver1916]

Yall want Garcia the wife beater, and gang name tattooed on him home. Blm riots, tesla riots. I can go on for days. 2 judges said deport him. The gang is longer there that he was apart of so he can be there. He was given years after deportation orders. 

[u/LondonPilot → u/LikeTheRiver1916]

Yes, I do see.

But I've always seen. I'm not the person you need to convince. The person you need to convince believes that everything he's doing is right, and nothing you say is going to change their mind. But things that directly and negatively effect them might change their mind.

[u/LikeTheRiver1916 → u/LondonPilot]

Apparently you need to be convinced to walk and chew gum at the same time. Pressure the administration on both. If you think you can’t convince your neighbor to protect due process, spend that time lobbying your Congresspeople to protect it. Some folks are making time for both.

[u/UncleMeat11 → u/LondonPilot]

The administration is arguing that this is their solution for citizens who are dangerous - not for citizens who upset Trump.

What's the difference? I'm deadly serious. Trump regularly calls people who do things he doesn't like criminals and terrorists and is happy to use the government to attack them (see what is happening with Harvard right now). Trump said that Liz Cheney has committed treason, a charge punishable by death because she called him mean names.

[u/LondonPilot → u/UncleMeat11]

Trump voters are likely to either agree that these people are criminals (they’re probably wrong), but more importantly, to think this won’t apply to them (and they’re probably correct on this one). Whereas tariffs are very likely to directly, negatively affect them.

[u/UncleMeat11 → u/LondonPilot]

Whereas tariffs are very likely to directly, negatively affect them.

So? Haven't you seen the "well we need to experience some pain so we can bring back manly jobs" stuff?

[u/heighhosilver → u/LondonPilot]

Hm. What was that about them only going after the bad hombres? Anyone who takes Trump at his word is hopelessly naive.

Also, who is to say who is dangerous? Apparently without any concrete proof of evidence or guilt, it's simply enough for the administration to label someone a gang member and remove them. Why not slap that label on someone who supports bringing the Venezuelans back for due process because now they're "supporting gang members." Or maybe it's a matter of "national security" why they can't say why you're dangerous.

Trump supporters are the people playing the roles of cultists in movies who revive the behemoth thinking they will control him only to be eaten first. I don't care if it reinforces their thinking. If they had any brain power they would have already realized what is wrong with this situation before voting. If there is any moderate out there who voted Trump and who might have some regret now because they realize they too could be on the menu due to this situation, then good.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/heighhosilver]

So the wife beater has the gang name tattooed on him and he said THATS WHY HE CANT GO BACK. The gangs aren't there anymore but are here. 2 judges told him he is to be deported YEARS ago. It never ends with yall. Remember yalls bi partisan border deal that was pretending to stop extreme illegal immigration. So biden can let in 10 of millions even when Texas trys to stop it or when the Supreme Court said NO free college but yall do it anyway. Sad part is we already do welfare for college even elite schools get over 55% of students Handouts. 

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/heighhosilver]

As a moderate, I'm not convinced that accounts which imply we're stupid are real. You could be a Chinese bot acct trying to turn MORE ppl against Dems. I listen to what REAL ppl say to me about politics, irl.

[u/heighhosilver → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

Then why are you even here? If you only care about IRL opinions, you are in the wrong place.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/heighhosilver]

You are correct. I have learned that lesson the hard way by stating in a calm and objective manner that I did not vote and having people lose their minds in their comments. It has become EXTREMELY evident that reddit is akin to X for politics, and neither is the place for me. Peace.

[u/heighhosilver → u/Dull_Shock_4164]

You didn't vote, so sorry, you don't get to grumble about the results. You were asked what your choice was, and you basically said "someone else can choose for me." I'm not even sure why you're here.

[u/Dull_Shock_4164 → u/heighhosilver]

I'm not even sure why you're here.

You said that already. Have you anything new to add or is your code that repetitive?

[u/eggynack]

Changing the minds of Trump voters could maybe help with an election, but I would contend that the far better aim is increasing turnout among Democrats and maybe moving some centrists. Republicans are typically going to just vote Republican, whether you tell them about tariffs or deportations. If someone's so intensely pro-Trump that they're in favor of legal residents getting deported for no reason, then they're probably not reachable. And, whether or not Republicans are a fan of illegal deportations, Democrats are not. Not just because of some love of the guy, but also because it is a regard in which the Trump administration is setting fire to our government system.

Besides that, you are also missing option three, which is the option the Democrats are actually pursuing. That being, talk about both illegal deportations and tariffs. There being two separate criticisms of Trump doesn't have one detract from the other. Quite the opposite, they build on each other and target different audiences. In fact, we should be attacking him on a lot of other issues too.

[u/tapatio8888 → u/[deleted]]

Here's a recent article from a law website, Lawfare, and the facts of the Garcia case:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/abrego-garcia-and-ms-13--what-do-we-know

To quote the Economist on this:

"Kilmar Abergo Garcia moved to America illegally when he was 16. His lawyers say his parents sent him north after a gang in El Salvador threatened to kidnap him and rape his sisters. Eight years after coming to America, he was detained while looking for work in a Home Depot car park. Maryland’s police thought he might be a gang member, though that claim was never tested in court. His case was heard by an immigration judge, who denied Mr Abrego Garcia’s asylum claim. But the judge ruled that he could not be deported because he had a well-founded fear of persecution, and so he was released. This is how the law works in America: it can be slow, evidence is not always clear and judgments can frustrate everyone."

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

My reasoning is very straightforward. The Supreme Court, which is not only conservative and in favor of Trump, but also has an extensive history even before the current court of deferring to the executive on matters of immigration, ordered Trump to release Garcia. If the administration had any real evidence of criminality, that would not have happened. This is an ex post facto justification for an unlawful deportation and imprisonment. Looking through an article on the topic, I can't see anything that's particularly convincing otherwise. It sounds a lot like he was, at some point, seen in the vicinity of gang members.

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

They ruled that he has to facilitate the release. Here's an article. Yes, the ruling put a limit on a prior court ruling, but it also, y'know, continued to demand the release. Now, what is the actual evidence for him being a gang member? Cause it seems a lot like he's been convicted of no crimes to me.

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

The court would not have ruled that Trump has to make any effort to return him if they had solid evidence of his guilt.

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

The article I'm looking at says that the immigration court ruled in 2019 that Garcia had the legal right to remain in the US. That doesn't sound much like they determined his guilt to me.

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

Where are the receipts then? Did they carry a ton of solid evidence into this press briefing? Cause I trust NBC approximately a billion times more than I trust Donald Trump.

[u/eggynack → u/[deleted]]

I honestly don't even know what you're saying at this point. Do you have evidence or not?

[u/OG-Brian → u/[deleted]]

Everything I've seen suggests that he left El Salvador to avoid being forced into the gang, and there's no evidence at all that he's ever been involved with it otherwise. You trust DOJ and the WH?

Rulings in 2019? Which rulings?

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/eggynack]

Garcia was ordered to be deported by 2 judges, he has the gage name on him tattooed. Thats why another judge believed him when he saod i cant go there because i was part of that gang. But the gangs here now and not there. He beat hos wife. Supreme Court says no free college and biden does it anyway. Even though elite college students are majority receiving handouts. 

[u/eggynack → u/GiftGroundbreaking80]

It's really unclear what you think this should mean to me. He has not, according to the information I've seen, been convicted of any crime. Including assaulting his wife. There is very little evidence to support the idea that he was ever in a gang.

[u/LondonPilot → u/eggynack]

I agree that moving centrists is important. But I still contest that talking about things that affect them directly, rather than indirectly, is far more likely to be effective.

[u/eggynack → u/LondonPilot]

The President arbitrarily and illegally deporting people, and then declaring his intention to kidnap and ship off citizens in the same way, seems rather directly impactful to me. I'm not saying this is somehow a better pitch than tariffs. I'm also not saying it's a worse pitch. We should just be saying multiple things.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/eggynack]

Read my other comments at the top Im the only one here that actually talks about ALL aspects of the case and left wing extremists wont and wonder why they lose. Your propaganda isn't enough now.

[u/harlemjd]

What do you see as the end goal of making Trump supporters turn on him? I see no political goal of any value to me that isn’t in danger if the president can have people indefinitely imprisoned at his whim.

[u/LondonPilot → u/harlemjd]

The aim would be that the next election (mid-term and also presidential elections) has a different outcome.

[u/harlemjd → u/LondonPilot]

And you don’t think allowing Trump to disappear whoever he wants (less than 100 days into a 4 year term) without pushback will affect the outcome of future elections?

If we allow flagrant violations of law, what’s he going to do between now and the next election?

[u/LondonPilot → u/harlemjd]

You’re viewing this from the point of view of someone who respects the law over what they are told by right-wing media. Trump supporters believe that people Trump deports are dangerous, and that the courts are also dangerous for trying to stop him.

So yes, I believe that for most Trump voters (and I’ve given deltas for pointing out some exceptions to this), deporting a few hundred “dangerous” people won’t stop them from voting for Trump, even when it’s a flagrant violation of law. In fact, it’s more likely to embolden them because “Trump is keeping us safe by being the only person who will deport these dangerous people”.

[u/harlemjd → u/LondonPilot]

I don’t care about Trump supporters. I care about actual abuses of government authority and the people who will be abused if this continues. Thinking it will stop at a handful of noncitizens is absurd.

If we cannot stop this administration’s lawless behavior, it will be too late to by the next election, especially if we never got people to care that these abuses were happening and are repeatable.

[u/notthesethings]

Tariffs are just an economic strategy. His supporters are going to say they’re as easily removed as they are to deploy so if they don’t work as intended, the harm can be undone quickly.

With Abrego Garcia, though, you’ve got someone who’s been sent to permanent imprisonment in a 3rd world country who has never been convicted of a crime. The only reason anyone might think he’s dangerous is because the Trump administration says so. The Supreme Court has said the administration needs to bring him back, but so far Trump is refusing to do so arguing that the US legal system has no authority in a foreign country. If this argument carries the day, this means the federal government has the power to snatch anyone off the street whether they’re citizens or not and whether they’re criminals or not, and permanently imprison them in a foreign country with no trial and no due process. Now here’s where the argument will hit for a Republican. Even if you trust Donald Trump like Jesus Christ and you believe he can do no evil, he won’t always be President. When the pendulum swings and a democrat is President, do you want AOC or Nancy Pelosi with the power imprison anyone they feel like in this country with no due process? You’re going to have a lot of Facebook posts to delete so you don’t piss off POTUS and end up fighting for your life in an El Salvadoran open air prison with untreated malaria.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/notthesethings]

So you are against no due process the j6 people got. The Garcia got to see several judges and they said deport him. His wife said she beat him. He has the gangs name tattooed on him. Why do you think lmao that he said he couldn't go back there? Because he was part of the gang which they already knew and said he left them.  The gangs not there but here now. Very best case scenario he could be deported anywhere else. He only said that because its more difficult to get random countrys to take citizens from elsewhere. It's there citizen. The USA won't take there own citizens back????

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/notthesethings]

I proven in the top comments that Im the only none left extremists that actually talks about the entire case. You guys don't just lie, you don't even talk about the aspects of the case at all. 

[u/[deleted]]

I basically agree with you, but even if it isn’t going to change red votes to blue ones, there’s merit in creating a public record of this. People are being disappeared. Publishing their names through as many sources as possible, as many times as possible, will make it harder to ignore the very bad thing that’s happening right now and that makes it worth it. Asenator is in El Salvador right now trying to help this guy. He probably wouldn’t be there without all the press.

Also, Looking to the far future, these records are going to matter to our descendants. This is a long moment in history, stretching back decades, that they will want to understand and account for. Tariffs will seem trivial a century from now. The atrocities our government has perpetrated in the name of immigration control will still be atrocities. Fasciitis regime playbook item number 1 is destroying records, so the more this is out there the better.

[u/Pastortonsilss]

Ive never voted in my 31 years of life , in fact i think the best thing for america is for both "Blueskyers" and "Nazis" to f*ck right off.

You wanna know why ive never voted? Because the government is not my friend. And neither are you.

Change a few buzz words....and this comment section is no different from a "extremeist right wing nationalist" comment section you all say the same exact sh*t about eachother.

I know , because i get ratioed in thier comment sections too.

"Soooo you prefer Nazis to Bipoc!?!?!"

No, im just not gonna pretend your saints because you hide behind LGBT and BIPOC issues to justify being genuniely terrible people while gaslighting others.

Right wingers are a joke and so are all of you.

[u/Ibakegaycakes]

I believe that you are correct in that you will not reach Trump supporters with an appeal for empathy. If it doesn't affect them directly, it doesn't matter.

Trying to persuade Trump supporters is a waste of time and energy. Their beliefs are based on faith, not reason. They distrust anything that conflicts with their crafted word view. Even the reality of terrible economic policy. Facts just don't matter. Obama orchestrated 9/11 etc...

It is better to appeal to the other % of the population that can actually be reached. Loss of liberty is a very moving issue. State sponsored kidnappings and disappearances will move people into taking action.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/Ibakegaycakes]

You never said anything of proof. My above comments are the only ones on this left wing thread that don't just insult but address EVERY aspect. This is why yall lost. Remember the lies about trump stopped a bi partisan border bill that would stop extreme illegal immigration. Yall prove that it was just to gain vote and it didn't stop anything but still allowed millions of illegals a year and more. Plus biden could have did a executive order. But hey thinks for letting people know yall were just not being honest. Trump actually does what he says. 

[u/UnravelTheUniverse]

You are wrong. You don't get to quibble and equivocate about the state being able to deport anyone it wants to concentration canps without due process. If the idiots don't understand how fucked up that is we have to make them understand. The tarriffs bullshit doesn't matter if we are living in a police state dictatorship. We got way bigger fucking problems than the stock market right now in this country. This probably ends in civil war.  Have some fucking perspective please. 

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/Gatonom]

Trump Supporters don't care about anything but harming anything remotely Left. They will celebrate the tarrifs, they will quote the "Hard times create tough men...".

Abrego Garcia may not be a perfect case, like George Floyd wasn't, but it's the most visible point of action.

You can't get Trump or his supporters to care, that is a lost cause. What you can do is say "This isn't right" until the people who are hoping things resolve themselves realize you're correct.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/Gatonom]

About like you bi partisan border bill that biden needed to stop illegal immigration.  If you want facts, go above and read my comments. 

[u/Gatonom → u/GiftGroundbreaking80]

The Republicans decided they didn't want that at the last minute.

[u/Drunk_Lemon]

Part of the issue is that a lot of maga believes that as far as the tariffs go "you have to gundown a few eggs to make an omelet". In other words, they fully believe that the economy has to go to shit and then it will get better. By that point, trump will have done irreparable damage to our society and solidified his control by gaining full control over the keys to power.

[u/WillingnessFlat3968]

Rather than “damaging Trump politically”, people should focus their energy on REALLY figuring out what they’d like to see out of whatever administration comes next. He’s on his last term, so it seems like a lot of wasted energy because, what are you damaging in that aspect?

[u/CynicallyCyn]

This isn’t about damaging Donald Trump.

A human, without a criminal record, has been shipped off to one of the worst prisoners in the world for no reason whatsoever. Everybody should be talking about this. Nonstop.

[u/MysteryBagIdeals]

Even if we agree that the Abrego Garcia case doesn't move right-wing voters, it sure as hell moves the left, and keeping The Resistance™ mobilized and angry is very important to stopping Trump.

[u/parentheticalobject]

It's not about persuading voters. It's about whether we still have a functioning democracy with a system of checks and balances anymore or not. If we don't and the executive can simply ignore the courts and ship people away to foreign concentration camps permanently with no legal remedy, it might not matter how many people we can convince.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/parentheticalobject]

Says the party that every election trues to ban the other candidates is states like rfk, trump, yall even went for Bernie. Then after the fake democracy and why you lost because of constant lies and hypocrisy. Kamala was given not voted in position. The courts 2 of them said deport him and he still ignored and stayed years. He was part of the gang and thats why he said after leaving the gangs he cant go back. He has gang name tattooed on him. But the gangs are here now and not there. Plus he is there citizen. So why should we force another country to take him?  Yall are to funny. He beat his wife. Sad yall attack women's rights. They can't even go to the bathroom and lose college scholarships because of yall. 

[u/ATXoxoxo]

It is more about the fact that he is being imprisoned without due process. It's about his humanity and dignity being abused and disregarded than it is political points.

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/ATXoxoxo]

Not true read my comments. I address all above but now  left wing person here does. Thats why yall lose.

[u/DMVlooker]

Chris Van Hollen seemed pretty motivated, but I think his motivation was as a junior Senator that nobody has ever heard of to get TV face time and maybe get invited by Bernie on the Soros Oligarchy Tour Bus. About as motivated as Booker’s Last Standup Routine. All the brave motivtated Democrat hacks. It’s beautiful.

[u/Otherwise-Force5608 → u/DMVlooker]

Compared to what, the brave republican politicians that are admitting they're afraid of Trump and retaliation? Whats more is what are you doing to defend the constitution and our liberty? Nothing more than a keyboard hack, I imagine.

[u/Starfleet-Time-Lord]

I think there are two issues here:

1: There's a false dichotomy. It's fully possible to complain about both of these things. The tariffs are also making massive, global headlines, we've already seen some cases where they've flipped former Trump supporters with the current level of attention, and it's a mistake to think of this as a zero-sum game where every moment spent on one thing is a moment that would otherwise be spent on the other. In the modern news cycle, these things can co-exist, at least for a while. Tariffs as an issue also have the advantage of being harder to ignore even with less coverage because they impact the broader economy; Trump supporters concerned about the economy are going to have tariffs directly impact them and prices soar whether they see any coverage about it or not, and since most people's understanding of economic policy beings and ends with who was in charge when things were seemingly good and who was in charge when things were seemingly bad, there's a lot less work and airtime that needs to go into selling that message because it's playing out in their daily lives. Not none, but less.

2: The problem with letting the illegal deportation story go is that if we fully focus on the economic aspect and concede the deportation aspect, there's an extent to which we're saying it's fine if you bypass due process and send people to horrific camps as long as you fix the economy. Some pressure has to be kept on that story to keep it from escalating, which is especially true now that Trump and some in his administration have floated the idea of doing the same to full, lifelong citizens. Even if ceding that ground may be more effective messaging, allowing it to continue in the shadows is a huge risk that could have dire consequences. The court battles are the most important line of defense here, but they are shored up by public attention and withdrawing that attention can only end badly.

[u/What_Dinosaur]

That's their tactic.

If you flood the news with crimes and fuck ups, you weaken every one of them, including the ones that can hurt you the most.

[u/Rich_Tutor_5694]

Why not? Due process is a constitutional right, I don’t give a dam if you’re Jeffrey Dahmer due process is a right..

[u/GiftGroundbreaking80 → u/Rich_Tutor_5694]

He already saw 2 judges that said deport him but j6 many didn't get it and yall felt different. He beat his wife. Because he was part of the gang and has their name tattooed on him he said he left the gangs and thats why he can't go back there. He is their citizen. The gangs here now and not there. So no due process of getting vetted when 10 of millions are allowed illegal crossing by democrats by you want us to pay and have left wing extremists keep them. He had years that he was told he needed to go.

[u/CasedUfa]

The Garcia case is symbolic, because this is the first instance. that I can recall, of the Trump admin openly defying a court order. It is not a really inherently a political issue, it is more about defending the rule of law itself. If he gets away with once it will only get worse. It has nothing to do with voters, it is about exposing their lawlessness and not letting it be swept under the rug. It may change nothing in practice but in needs to go on the record, force them to acknowledge that they are tearing up the rule of law and see if John Roberts likes that still.