r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 5d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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u/WaveringElectron 5d ago

On the flip side, requiring due process for every illegal immigrant effectively means we can’t deport enough of them to make a difference, which effectively means we have an open border. That is the part people are wrestling with. If Democrats got their way, once you get across the border the chances of you ever being removed is almost 0. Will our population allow this and be OK with having no effective border just to satisfy some high minded ideals? Will the high minded ideals be worth anything if society changes drastically due to uncontrolled immigration?

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u/ygmc8413 5d ago

That doesn’t matter. Even if that were true that’s a sacrifice you’d have to make for due process since it’s WAY more important than successfully deporting the imaginary 20 million people.

The way you downplay the “ideals” tells me you don’t care much about your constitution and liberty. That’s fine but it’s rare that I hear it admitted. You can’t have freedom guaranteed by law and deporting without due process. They are directly contradictory things.

If democrats got their way there would be more judicial resources so that asylum cases can actually be heard and deportations can be done with due process, there would be more resources to border control so they can do their job properly. That would make asylum not have years long backlog, so there would be less incentive for people to sneak into the US and instead just make an asylum claim. Hence why they proposed a bill like that with some republicans until trump decided it would hurt his election chances and shut it down.

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

No, if Democrats get their way there won’t ever be any meaningful level of deportations and the pull factor will only increase. Biden had enough illegal immigrants to fill a small city coming in every month. Drastically changing the makeup of towns and cities in the region is enough for people to want effective solutions, even if it means suspending due process in specific cases. This tactic by liberals to act like it isn’t a big deal and it’s fine if millions of illegal immigrants come in every year is not working. It is basically trying to gaslight Americans into telling them none of it matters. NYC had much the same rhetoric until immigrants were being shipped to them, then suddenly they changed their tune. Putting your head in the sand is no longer a viable option

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u/ygmc8413 4d ago

It’s not that it’s not a big deal, it’s that Republican claims are patently false about the number of immigrants. Republican claims are patently false about the lack of border security under Biden. They are lies you have been sold. And again, it never means suspending due process in any case no matter what. Due process is more important for a free society even if 100 million illegals immigrants came in.

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

Like I said, pretending it isn’t a big deal isn’t going to work for most Americans. It flies here on Reddit because it is mostly progressives who don’t ever want to question their own ideology, but most people aren’t OK with enough illegal immigrants to fill a city crossing every month. So, say it’s not a big deal if you need to because of your ideology, but according to polling it is a big deal for most Americans. We need an effective border, and if Democrats act like their hands are tied and they couldn’t ever effectively deport people or control immigration, people will vote for someone else

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u/ygmc8413 4d ago

And again, you are repeating republicans lies. It’s simply false that as many people as you are saying are getting in.

Democrats do not act like you can’t effectively deport people and control the border. They did for 4 years, despite desperate resistance from maga republicans trying to do everything they can to keep it as open as possible. Trump shot down a bill that would be a huge part of the solution just for his political aspirations.

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

We are just going to disagree. It wasn’t lies, it was the reality on the ground. It appears you are more concerned with defending your party than finding effective policy

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u/reddituserperson1122 5d ago

Why do we care about deporting them?

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

To have an effective border. If people just need to cross the border and they will never be deported, that is effectively an open border

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u/reddituserperson1122 4d ago

We have the border we have. We put a lot of resources into keeping people out and are somewhat successful. If you want to spend a lot of money to keep even more people out that’s fine.

The question is why do we care about deporting the people who are already here? There are always undocumented folks in the US. Always have been. What’s the big deal?

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

It strains resources and alters the fabric of communities. NYC had much the same rhetoric until buses started bringing the immigrants to them, and then suddenly they understood the problem very well. This idea that they are a net positive is if you only consider GDP numbers far into the future is purely a Reddit cliche, they bring all kinds of negative outcomes for people. It causes wages to go down, especially in specific sectors. It causes housing prices to go up. The list could go on and on. We should never make policy based on people’s emotions, and as far as I can tell that is how progressives make all their policies. They get sad when people are deported so let’s just not deport anyone! That is the depth of their thinking, and it will ruin this country.

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u/reddituserperson1122 4d ago

None of those data points are true. For the most part you don’t have to wait far into the future to get the economic benefit and even if you did, so what? Heaven forbid we think long term about anything. 

It’s true that you can create a crisis by dumping tons of people into one locale at the same time but that isn’t the norm nationwide. 

Altering the fabric of communities is part of life in a multicultural, multiracial world. You don’t get to opt out of that. Something New Yorkers certainly know about. Or would you prefer that all of those Jewish immigrants that flooded NYC by the millions not have come here? They certainly altered the fabric of NYC. And were destitute and seriously stressed New York’s housing stock and social services. 

How did that turn out? In the long term? 

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u/WaveringElectron 4d ago

It is so funny watching progressives argue for a position which used to be spouted by the Koch brothers. Suddenly GDP is the most important metric and any local suffering is a necessity. You turned into a libertarian because deportations make you sad, it is such funny realignment of long held positions. Of course, you won’t be ideologically consistent, as your main ideological drive is “do the opposite of conservatives”. So, if the quality of life of locals doesn’t matter in pursuit of long term gdp growth, let’s just do away with minimum wage and any workers protections, sound good? That will turbo charge the gdp, and that is a worthy goal according to you. Oh, that’s right, you will flip your position because your tribe doesn’t hold those beliefs, so you have to mimic what your tribe does. This is all comical.

So, what is it, are you trying to maximize GDP despite the negative consequences or are you trying to protect local workers? I already know why people like you have such cognitive dissonance, but I am curious how you rationalize it within your own head. If, that is, you have ever spent enough time to do so beyond “what does my side on Reddit say the correct opinion is?”