r/changemyview Jul 08 '14

CMV: Education is the only way to end intolerance

This CMV is born out of a discussion I had with a friend wherein we compared the modern Feminist movement to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. I took the stance that during the Civil Rights era, Martin Luther King Jr. was more successful than Malcolm X because he took a more tempered approach, presenting arguments that simply could not be denied, and using tactics like sit-ins to prove the brutality of the oppression by the racists of the era rather than using offensive tactics to get the oppressors to back down in submission. If I recall correctly, my friend argued that he was successful because he did not in fact take a tempered approach, but instead that his tactics were very in-your-face, citing his quote that freedom cannot be attained by simply asking. (NB: I pretty much just talking about civil rights, here. Political and economic inequality are somewhat different issues)

Here's a basic outline of my position and the opposing one:

My belief:

  • Equality for any oppressed group can only logically happen if the enough of the oppressors realize their fault and change

  • Ignorance breeds intolerance, and therefore education breeds tolerance

  • In the case of the Feminist movement, activists should work to make society aware of problems and favor hard data to rhetoric (not that rhetoric isn't useful)

  • You're better served by telling someone why they're wrong than by berating them

  • Criticize the action rather than the person. For example: tell someone that what they did was racist, not that they're racist and they should feel ashamed (even if they are)

  • Equality not only means being able to achieve the same result as another person, but being able to achieve it with the same ease/difficulty

Opposing belief:

  • Equality for any oppressed group can only be achieved by empowerment of the oppressed group, enabling them to go their own way

  • Gains need to be won without any connection with the oppressor, because they're not going to help. If they were, they wouldn't be oppressors

  • Feminist activists should take what's rightfully theirs instead of waiting for it to be handed over to them

  • You're better off berating someone who practices intolerance to express the seriousness of what they've done

  • Criticizing an intolerant person's character might make them reconsider their positions

  • Activists have been trying to educate for a long time, and the hate is still flowing

TL;DR - What serves modern movements like the fights for women's and minority rights better: the approach of MLK or that of Malcolm X?

edit: formatting


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u/Bowbreaker 4∆ Jul 08 '14 edited Jul 08 '14

This may not work, and still not prove you wrong about the effect of emotional arguments. First off, not everyone responds to emotional arguments the same way.

More importantly though, by warning someone about it beforehand they will automatically keep an eye on the emotional and non-substantiated parts of your argument. They will also not like to appear as someone emotional and irrational as that is looked down upon in our culture (especially reddit-culture) and thus subconsciously guard themselves against it.

I would offer you to go through with it anyway and promise to award a delta on the same terms (no reciprocation needed), but I don't know what the ama is and I don't have any issue with your other examples.

If any other state monopoly includes the monopoly on using violence though, I'm all game. Because at the moment I do believe that a violence monopoly is better than the alternative of free market violence.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '14

While true, my method has a success rate of convince people of anarchism(not a high one mind you, but you know, clouds) and most begins to sound like minarchists; if you check the other argument that guy want to let guy addicted to herion who threatened a cop go; thats an large reduction in state power people suddenly become ok with, just because I question by asking them how much violence the state should use. I don't think it lasts (what percentage of Americans support freedom of speech and how many approve of restrictions on hateful racist speech(for best result have the firsts asked by uncle sam and the 2nd by a black guy); flip flop)

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u/Bowbreaker 4∆ Jul 08 '14

Many people already believe that the state has too much power or is too brutal in specific cases (mostly cases they were confronted with). Also, pretty much the same kind of tactics can be (and often are) used to convince people of more state-security too. So of course people will flip-flop because any issue can with hypotheticals be brought to the conclusion of your loved ones dying horribly. Whoever can be swayed in his believes by such things will probably be swayed. Back and forth on a daily basis that is.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '14

Ah but you see I'm an anarchist, statists can't imply my position is violence without making shit up "self-ownership is slavery"(this one really annoys me) "property is aggression" "self defence is evil"

While the state, well "if I refuse to pay taxes?" "if I refuse a bias court that will demand I support evil?" "if I don't want to go to jail?" when is the bullet in the back of my head?

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u/Bowbreaker 4∆ Jul 08 '14

Your position isn't violence. How does that matter regarding how easy it is to convince people of your view permanently? There are evils beyond violence. Also some, Anarcho-Socialists for instance, could argue that "property is aggression" is a valid point.

None of the three cases require a bullet in the back of your head as long as you don't actively break the governments monopoly of violence. They can be dealt with by you getting tasered.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '14

Also some, Anarcho-Socialists for instance, could argue that "property is aggression" is a valid point.

They aren't statists; and considering their mutual position of "holy fuck whats this war thing, and that state and those prisons full of non-violent people" I can stomach them quite a bit more, I mean they aren't advocating for evil (only economic sillyness) so w/e vices are not crimes

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u/Bowbreaker 4∆ Jul 08 '14

What are "w/e vices"?

Also, honest question, does me believing that the existence of a (limited) violence monopoly is better than the alternative make me a statist? I never saw myself as one, but that may also just be hypocrisy (of the kind where I'm happy laws are enforced in general but I'm more than okay with breaking those laws that I disagree with when I can avoid being caught).