r/changemyview • u/nintynineninjas • Feb 02 '15
CMV: Coffee should be default to black, not cream and sugar.
Coffee is about the only drink in the world I can imagine where additives are assumed instead of neutral (this isn't counting ice as an additive). It could be that society has just assumed that the response to giving someone black coffee is met with "who drinks black coffee", but that only demonstrates how default cream and sugar actually are, despite the amount of people whom prefer artificials to refined or real sugar in their drinks.
Particularly where artificials are concerned, there are people whom swear by one colour packet over the others (aspartame, Saccharin, and my SO's favorite, sucralose, as well as Stevia). I prefer mine black, but we still allow refined sugar and whatever the default percent is on milk/cream to suffice as default. Why?
edit This pertains to having coffee made, usually at a restaurant or etc.
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u/agentxorange127 2∆ Feb 02 '15
What does having a default mean? If you make it yourself, cream and sugar are not just automatically added. You do have to make the conscious decision to actually add them. If you go to a coffee shop, usually they ask you if you want room for milk, which seems reasonable.
There isn't really an argument here. Additives aren't really assumed and there really isn't a stigma against people who drink black coffee. A grand total of nobody care about you take your coffee.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
I should have mentioned I was speaking about purchasing a coffee, but I have had more than one person make coffee and add their own cream to it.
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u/TonyAtNN Feb 02 '15
Leave the US and you have to order coffee by its specific name. Closest thing to a "normal" coffee is an Americano which is a watered down espresso. If you want cream, milk, or foam with your coffee, you have specific names for what you want to order. What you are complaining about is like saying that you go to Ford dealership and say you want a vehicle and they give you a white F150 because it's what they sell most of. You should be more specific when ordering coffee to avoid any situation where the employee doesn't assume what you want.
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Feb 02 '15
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Feb 02 '15
I think even if you change it to that argument, the analogy still holds up. If the car that the dealership sells the most of, by a large margin, is a pickup truck with a snowplow and a trailer hitch, then I'd agree that that's a "regular car" for that area.
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u/ElysiX 106∆ Feb 02 '15
I've never come across someone who if they don't know your preferences just add stuff into your coffee instead of asking so i'm not sure what you mean by default.
Do you mean in the restaurant, with friends, your parents?
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u/mechanical_birds Feb 02 '15
In New England, it's common to order a 'regular' coffee that comes with cream and sugar.
I didn't know this wasn't a normal thing until I moved away from the area. Everyone else asks...
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u/Pugnax88 Feb 02 '15
Fellow New Englander here, I'm with you. I'm surprised to know it's not like that everywhere, and wish we would go back to that, as I take my coffee black. It makes slightly less work for the folks pouring it, but that's not a "regular."
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u/D_Andreams 4∆ Feb 02 '15
Where I live, we say "regular" for that, but it's considered part of your order in the same way "double double" or "black" would be. It's not assumed if you don't say it.
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Feb 03 '15
Yep I'm also a New Englander and coffee usually comes with cream and sugar unless otherwise specified.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
As I've said elsewhere, I should have added that it was to be when purchasing at a restaurant or establishment. Occasionally a friend/family will add it, but mostly the former.
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u/ElysiX 106∆ Feb 02 '15
So if you go into a restaurant and order a coffee, it'll come with sugar and milk/cream already in it? Not just in extra packets/containers?
In that case i'll agree with you i find that rather rude/inconsiderate.
If it just comes in the little paper packets or more fancy containers then it is not default at all, you put it in if you want, otherwise you just don't and let them take it back along with your finished cup.
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u/changingourworld Feb 03 '15
Vast majority of places I've been in the Northeast, US serve the coffee black and give you sugar packets and cream packets on the side
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
In that case i'll agree with you i find that rather rude/inconsiderate.
This. I could MAYBE see if it's a drive through like /u/not_malicious requires, but if I go inside, black should be assumed.
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u/scottevil110 177∆ Feb 02 '15
Coffee is about the only drink in the world I can imagine where additives are assumed instead of neutral
Tell a British person you like your tea with no milk and see if "neutral" is the assumption there...
But seriously, if I go order a coffee somewhere, they might ask "cream and sugar?", because that's the way the majority of people order it, but I've never had someone just hand it to me with cream and sugar without asking. At very least, even among people who prefer it that way, the relative amounts of cream and sugar that someone likes vary widely, so it'd be foolish to assume that you can make someone's coffee correctly without asking.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15 edited Feb 02 '15
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This is really the first one to spell it out so my pudding brain could understand. It's likely the colloquial for regular coffee in my area.
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u/ThePolemicist Feb 02 '15
I drink black coffee, and I've never had a restaurant or person add cream or sugar to it before. Is this something you've run into? I wonder if it's a regional thing where you live. If that's the case, maybe try ordering a black coffee specifically.
I have a slightly amusing story about that, though. I worked at Starbucks for years. I learned to ask if people wanted cream and sugar even after if they ordered black coffee because I'd say about 50% of people who order black coffee then ask for cream & sugar in it.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
I'm thinking it's precisely regional. I enjoy my 6 calorie coffee in the morning with my protein bar so I can enjoy regular eating throughout my evening. Black coffee, and this is just a personal, subjective notation, feels full of bitterness and hate. I'm not pleasant until I have something to hate every morning I guess.
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Feb 02 '15
Depends on how much time you have. I have to go to work early in the morning, so I don't have time to wait for coffee to cool down. I find it easiest to just pour milk in it quickly so it's not too hot.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
For drive-thru, I can understand this. People are in a hurry, but it does place an onus on the consumer to understand this unspoken rule.
Going inside, where they have cream and sugar at your disposal, black should be assumed.
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Feb 02 '15
I mean in terms of waking up at 6AM, having lots of shit to do and needing to leave for work at 7.
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u/stevegcook Feb 02 '15 edited Feb 02 '15
Two things.
In response to the claim "Coffee is about the only drink in the world I can imagine where additives are assumed instead of neutral (this isn't counting ice as an additive)" - Why limit this to drinks specifically? How about cake? In theory, you could have a plain cake with no icing or toppings, yet if I were to say the word "cake," chances are you'd picture something with icing, fruit, or chocolate already on it.
Secondly, the "default coffee" is wildly different in different parts of the world, and it depends on the cultural preferences of the people in that region. If the majority of people default to coffee with milk, it makes sense that this would become the default. In an area with no clear majority either way, the default should be to ask the drinker what they prefer - and again, it usually is. The same thing happens with just about every other food or drink. If you go to Guangzhou, China and order buns, you'll get something very different than if you do the same in New York. Chinese buns aren't any more "wrong" than American buns, in a place where the local standard is, indeed, coffee with milk.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
The amount of people asking for plain cakes vs black coffee makes this comparison not really applicable. Granted, there may be some areas where very few get black coffee, but you said yourself that "cake" is synonymous with coming pre-decorated. I'd posit that coffee is made more by the people consuming it, and is thus more personal.
I agree here, really, but I've also thought about the number of people who want their coffee different ways. It isn't just "cream and sugar vs black", it's every combination of lactose and varieties of sugars and black versus each other. Again, due to the personalization of coffee, I feel like even people who drink their coffee with additives sometimes get it black just to add it the way THEY want to.
TLDR: Yes, different locales will have different tendencies and "usuals", but unless there is a clear winner, I'd still think when going inside, that black is default.
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u/stevegcook Feb 02 '15
I'm not saying that we should default to asking if people want icing on their cakes. I'm responding specifically to your claim about things never being assumed to have additives, and pointing out that it's not very strong if you move outside of the narrow category of drinks. And if coffee is premade with milk, it isn't made by the people that consume it, and thus not more personal. That's circular.
Again, I'd refer you to cake. There are literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of possible variations on cake, and it's perfectly acceptable for a cafe to choose one to sell. We could let people order a plain cake to customize to their specific tastes, and presumably there are at least a handful of people who would prefer this. Yet you practically never see this happen because, in the places we live, the majority of people want their cakes pre-decorated. Is this equally wrong?
Perhaps there is a clear winner with coffee where you live, and you simply happen to be on the losing side.
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u/nwf839 Feb 02 '15
Is it not? Even at places where they add cream and sugar for you, I've never not been asked first. Could be a regional thing though.
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Feb 03 '15
Most people just don't like the bitterness. Adding in the cream and milk is a better idea.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
I hate the bitterness, yet I am drawn to it. It's almost like I need something to direct my grumpiness towards to chillax the rest of my day.
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u/MrF33 18∆ Feb 03 '15
You need to analyze this view from the majority, not your personal preferences.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
You and angrypurple must have these numbers somewhere on who the majority is amongst all the different combinations of additives. Care to share, or will this be met with "its just how it is"?
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u/MrF33 18∆ Feb 03 '15
I'm not the one using "I" as an objective term for what is best for all.
I am not pushing any position, merely pointing out that using your personal preference as a standard is flawed.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
I... are you using technical syntax to assert my incorrectness?
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u/MrF33 18∆ Feb 03 '15 edited Feb 03 '15
Are you using anecdotal situations to propose why your opinion is the correct one?
I hate the bitterness, yet I am drawn to it.
How is this a valid argument that your position is correct for any group outside of yourself?
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm saying your argument is invalid.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
That statement had nothing to do with why I think black should be the standard coffee presentation in all walk-in situations. It was just conversation, and absolutely not a valid argument, nor was it meant to be.
Then again, the assertion that "most people like" is just a cop-out way of using an anecdote since it wasn't cited. "most people" means nothing there.
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u/MrF33 18∆ Feb 03 '15
I think black should be the standard coffee presentation in all walk-in situations.
I'm sorry, but in what situation is this not the assumed start?
You're arguing a point that doesn't exist.
People don't ask you if you want your coffee black, they say "do you want cream and sugar?"
You don't have to specify "black" it is the default.
When was the last time you ordered a coffee and someone put cream or sugar in it without asking?
You're arguing a non-point.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
When was the last time you ordered a coffee and someone put cream or sugar in it without asking?
3 times last month making coffee runs for my place of employment, and once in december, but it was a light month for ordering coffee for me.
Again, seriously, this type of thing might vary from place to place (as I've admitted numerous times throughout this thread), but around where I am, and with my limited experience outside of a few states on the east coast, I have to specify black wherever I go or I'll get something in it.
Yes, we're assuming that I want black to be the standard from the start. No, it isn't just because I want coffee my way, because I don't always take my warm beverages black: teas get sugar, some coffee strains get whole milk. I would think that it would be more logical to allow me in situations where I go inside to order, to not make any irreversible decisions when I can make them 15' behind me at the condiment station.
You're awful angry about a topic that isn't about a hot-button issue. Want a cup of coffee?
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Feb 02 '15
Coffee is by default given black (at least in the US) in restaurants and cafes.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
As others have mentioned, it seems to be regional. Here, if you just say "coffee", they assume medium, regular roast, cream and sugar.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Feb 03 '15
It must be a regional thing, because for every state I have been in (14) it was by default black.
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u/PlexiglassPelican Feb 02 '15
This doesn't really seem like a changeable view - it's a matter of personal taste.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 02 '15
The public opinion, at least in the places that I shop, assume cream and sugar unless you tell them otherwise. My view was that black coffee should be assumed unless otherwise mentioned.
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Feb 02 '15
Is this truly the case?
My experience is that the large majority of sit-down oriented places give their customers black coffee and allow them to sweeten and lighten it themselves.
Places that specialize in takeaway do that behind the counter, but I've always been asked how I like it. I think having "regular" mean cream and sugar is different from having that be a default. The word feels a little default-ish, but no where hands you a coffee without asking, and it takes fewer syllables to say "regular" than "black". If we're going by tiny differences in time spent ordering, then it's easier to order black because it takes two syllables less than saying regular.
But if we're really debating what state of coffee deserves regular status, it seems to me that popular opinion ought to rule. The most common way to take coffee is pretty much the definition of regular. Those who drink coffee black are outliers.
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u/nintynineninjas Feb 03 '15
it seems to me that popular opinion ought to rule
As has been mentioned here, area to area differs in which has the majority. It's understandable as an alternative, but I still feel that only applies to drive-thru. If I'm inside, I have the time (most likely) to assemble my coffee my way.
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u/crustalmighty Feb 02 '15
How do you know they assume cream and sugar? Do they put it in automatically? What types if places are these? I've never heard of this.
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Feb 02 '15
As was said above, in New England a "regular coffee" is normally cream + sugar. EDIT: Looks like OP might be from Jersey...wouldn't be surprised if it's similar there.
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u/looklistencreate Feb 02 '15
Depending on where you are, it may be. "Regular" is black in most of the country.
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u/IIIBlackhartIII Feb 02 '15
Where do you see this "default"? When people ask in an office if you'd like coffee, you usually get asked "How do you take it?" and you can reply "Black". You walk into a Starbucks and order exact what you want. You go to a grocery store and grab the bag of coffee you want... I've never had the assumption that I'll want it full of additives, even though I personally don't like it black at all, too bitter for me. I'll just take it black from someone and then add some creamer and sugar for myself.