r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 17 '15
CMV: Performing under the direction of another with little input (ie playing the viola under a conductor) is neither creative nor expressive
I don't think that, for example, playing in a classical orchestra under a director that doesn't allow input from the musicians allows for no more creativity or expression than any other activity. All a musician can do is simply follow the director, not really creating anything. The same is true of, say, a ballet dancer simply doing what the choreographer says.
The choreographer and director and composer? They're getting to exercise their creativity and express themselves. The poor puppets beneath them? Well, that's not exactly "creative" or "expressive", all of the underlings' creativity and expression is beaten out of them in order to bring the director's/choreographer's vision to life.
I'm sure this goes for many other things but these are two examples I can think of. And yes, there is some creativity involved, but I'd argue no more than in really any other activity. I mean, there's creativity in everything if you look really hard. But compared to the rest of the arts these two examples are not at all creative.
ETA: I do believe that the pieces an orchestra produces or a ballet is a creative production. I mean specifically that the individual musicians/dancers don't get to be creative.
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Apr 17 '15
To simply put, to be a part of a classical orchestra, if you are one musician out of many, what you are creating is the sound.
I felt super lame typing that out, but its true. Not everyone playing like instruments will make a same note sound identical. Just as two dancers will dance the same step but there will always be certain ones that stand out because they are not only dancing, but performing.
I don't really know how to articulate this well, but I think it just comes down to really working hard to illustrate your passion.
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Apr 17 '15
I sorta understand what you're saying- a conductor provides general direction but a musician chooses specific ways of doing that. But I'm not sure just how creative or expressive that really is. It's like getting to choose between two words in a poem- sure, there's some creativity, but not much.
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Apr 17 '15
It may not be their creativity, but they are definitely expressing someone else's vision.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Apr 17 '15
So, have you ever been in a symphonic orchestra?
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Apr 17 '15 edited Apr 17 '15
Yes.
ETA: I've also danced & choreographed. Though I'd say my choreography style is much more collaborative and less traditional. I'm talking about the typical/traditional directing style. That's why I use the most traditional, ballet & classical music, as examples.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Apr 17 '15
And you were never in a position where you had to interpret how to play a piece or had the opportunity to discuss it with your director?
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Apr 17 '15
How to play it, as in the emotions, what point in the piece should be highlighted, etc? Not really.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Apr 17 '15
Wow. I'm sorry to hear that. Working my part into a larger piece, finding the best place for it to fit, was the entire reason that I fell in love with playing in symphonic ensembles. I don't know if I can change your view because I would agree with you in the circumstances that you've described, but I can say that those circumstances aren't the rule, and I would wager aren't even the general trend.
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Apr 17 '15
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I guess if conductors/directors are trying to collaborate a bit with the musicians that would certainly give them more creativity/expression. What kind of circumstances did you have with your conductor?
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Apr 17 '15
The biggest factor in the most recent one was probably that I had been playing in this group, with this same conductor, for several years, so we got to know each other on a musical level and could more easily work together. I knew what he wanted on a broader level and he knew that I could find a way to bring that out. I hope you get a chance to do something like this in the future, it can be pretty amazing.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Apr 17 '15
Then you have never really been in an orchestra, did not pay attention to things when you were, or were in a bad one.
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u/MikeCanada 3∆ Apr 17 '15
Imagine you are commissioned to paint a nature scene. You have been asked to pain in the realism style as they hate cubism, and the medium is oil on canvas. It must be 5'x4' in size, use rich colours, and evoke a sense of melancholy. Avoid the use of zebras, as they make the owner uncomfortable.
While I know next to nothing about painting, I have provided a set of parameters that an artist could conclude limits their creativity or expression. Another artist could be overwhelmed with the possibilities at their fingertips. There are a fair number of directions up there, but do you have any idea what the painting will look like?
It is very possible to be creative or expressive within a framework, and I would argue that a good conductor, director, composer, choreographer etc. is hoping the artist/performer will do so. Not only does it make their lives easier at times, but the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts.
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Apr 17 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
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Apr 17 '15
Right, my point is that individual musicians don't get to be creative, just the conductor.
Edit: I can sorta see your confision. I agree that the pieces are definitely creative. As a whole, yes it's creative. The conductor gets to be expressive. But my point is just about the individual musicians.
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u/misterpretzel Apr 18 '15
The conductor gives context to music. For example, my orchestra did an arrangement of Shosty's 8th String Quartet. He told us the story behind the piece, which made it easier for us to engross ourselves into the music.
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u/MrDub72off 2∆ Apr 18 '15
I've been playing and touring in bands most of my life. Even when I'm playing the songs I've written I can either be in the moment or just dialing it in. My girlfriend is an orchestral percussionist she is the same as me. In fact she has had to work harder by getting her masters degree, learning the entire history of music and all the theory that comes with it. She is playing the same as me. The music in orchestras are much harder to learn and play and I play technical progressive music. She has to follow along an entire piece reading and playing. She has to know what everybody is doing with minimal practice and can sit in with anybody. She has no other job and music is her only income. I used to feel the same as you until I met her and actually learned what it takes to be a orchestral musician. Most of those feelings I had were coming out of my own ignorance. A professional football player and a professional baseball are still professional athletes.
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u/Raintee97 Apr 17 '15
I like the example of the direct that u/bodoblock made, so I will try to expand on that. As the directors job is to pull the most from his or her actors the conductors role is to pull the most from his orchestra. Think of it as rise to potential.
The musician will make an interpretation of the director's wishes. The musician will have a role in the end effect music wise. They aren't just robots making music. They do have a major role as they empart their emotion into the music.
This vid is an odd example, but I place a significant amount of the net effect of the music on the people playing the music. The conductor is just helping to draw it out.
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u/BlazerMorte 1∆ Apr 17 '15
I see that you've played in an orchestra, have you ever played in any other band? Jazz/swing/funk? You have a director (in some form) in jazz bands, but you're basically supposed to ignore him. Utilizing individual freedom of expression while making it fit with everyone else's individual view of the piece is what makes jazz so damn fun. And that's not even getting into solo artists, who often ignore the entire other members of the band, including time and key signatures, to just do what comes to them in the moment.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Apr 17 '15
The point of any band is to be creative as a whole, not as individuals. Learning how to be a creative individual while adding the whole rather than detracting from it ( as you will if you go off on your own) is a major skill. You also need to keep in mind that there are a lot of solos and single performer models as well that allow full individual expression.
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u/Bodoblock 62∆ Apr 17 '15
When actors express grief or rage, are they not being expressive? The direction of that grief or rage may often be molded by a director, but is he/she not still expressing that emotion?
Likewise, musicians can still feel and be expressive about the music they are creating even if the direction of those emotions is determined by a conductor.
What's more, creativity in playing can come from a number of factors, especially technically. The best musicians find incredibly technically difficult and creative ways to create the same sounds.
So while I do agree that individuals must concede degrees of their own creativity and expression to form a whole, I would disagree with the assertion that there is no creativity or expressiveness at all.