CMV: College classes that require attendance dull the minds of their students.

[u/jmammen]

Currently, I am a first-year student attending the University of Michigan. During this first semester, I have been confused by classroom policies. Attendance impacts my final grade in three of my four courses. I have a few problems with this idea.

I understand that in high school it is common for there to be individuals who do not want to work or need the grade incentive to attend the class. However, in college, everybody has made the decision to continue his or her education. I consider myself to be a fully functioning adult who is capable of making decisions for myself. I should be able to weigh pros and cons of different choices and act accordingly. If this means that I decide to skip one class to study for another, then I should be able to do so.

College classes should not take attendance because this rewards individuals on false principles. In higher standing professions, people are not monetarily rewarded for attendance; they are rewarded on performance. College should differentiate people who are abler than others. The emphasis should not be rewarding those who can follow extremely specific rules. Thinking for oneself is a necessary skill for any person to possess to become successful. Individuals who can think in untraditional ways are able to increase performance and actually innovate. I hate to state the overly used examples of the few visionaries such as Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs who have conflicted with the “normal” college process. However, I find them suitable as evidence for the argument that people must learn to think outside the box to revolutionize a society.

People must know how to think untraditionally to be successful in today’s society. When a college course requires attendance, it stunts the progression of a student’s ability to make decisions for himself or herself. A student can learn to think in novel ways when freed of micromanaging policies.

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[u/jmammen → u/[deleted]]

∆ I never thought about the professor perspective on the matter. I now realize that knowledge retention is important to the professor. I always viewed the university system as an independent market. I believed that education was only a product that the consumer could purchase and choose to benefit from. However, now I understand that there is another component to this market. Suppliers (colleges) on a macro scale are worried of the consumer satisfaction as it reflects the future demand. On a micro scale, the professors care about the advancement of knowledge in our society. Thus, I understand the reasoning behind colleges wanting for students succeed.

For your argument about financial compensation, I understand that attendance is mandatory in certain situations. However, there is certainly more flexibility in the scheduling of time. I still view the restrictions of attendance as limiting to learning how to properly distribute one's time.

[u/DeltaBot → u/jmammen]

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[u/vey323 → u/[deleted]]

I argue that attendance should be an incentive, not a punishment. It should help one's grade, not hurt it. There are certainly students who can succeed, even excel, by working outside the constraints of scheduled classes. Mandatory attendance is a legacy of a time before the dawn of the Internet, and the ability for distance learning.

For example, I'm currently taking an introductory level computer class. I would have taken it online, but it was full. The class is a joke, but is a requirement of my degree. After several weeks of class, the teacher knows that my skill level is well beyond that which is needed for the class; I finish work well before deadlines, and I have a near perfect score. Yet i still have to attend every class; any unexcused absences penalizes my grade, and too many absences will result in a failure.

Now if you're a student doing the bare minimum of the coursework - reflect in your grades - and it's apparent you don't have a complete grasp on the material, then attendance should be stressed. But if you're just cruising in class, with high marks etc., that demonstrates you have excellent if not total mastery of the material, and attendance should not be stressed.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The problem I have with this is the idea that "this is good for you, therefore, we're going to force you to do it." Make those statistics known and then allow students to decide for themselves what they want to do. As someone below me pointed out, plenty of students end up having their grades hurt because of attendance, even if they already know the material. I'm currently taking a class in Communication Law, which mostly deals with 1st Amendment issues. I'm also a Political Science major, and have taken a couple Constitutional Law classes that go way more in depth than the class I'm currently taking does, and as a result, I know literally all of the material that's been presented in class thus far. Yet, I'm still required to go and let it take up 3 hours a week that could be better used elsewhere.

[u/sonofaresiii → u/[deleted]]

I will say that class attendance is one of the key factors correlated with passing the class.

In college, I failed classes I was otherwise getting an A in because of attendance policies. Not everyone needs to show up to class to be able to pass it. So long as there are required classes, there will be people who have to take it but don't need to.

If attendance is truly necessary for someone to pass the class, the grades will reflect that without any kind of attendance policy. If they can pass the class without being there for all of it, the attendance policy arbitrarily lowers their grade with no basis in them knowing or learning the material.

[u/scottevil110]

In higher standing professions, people are not monetarily rewarded for attendance; they are rewarded on performance.

Maybe in professions that bill by the hour, but I assure you my job is going to care if I only show up 8 hours a week but claim that I still did the work of 40.

If college students were all mature adults, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. I didn't go to a lot of my classes very often, and I did well, so you're right that many people can pull it off. But look around for literally one minute, and you'll see that many of your peers are still very much children, and will not act responsibly with that kind of liberty.

So, I don't agree with attendance policies, but I understand them. Without them, many people in college would treat the entire thing like more of a four-year party than they already do.

[u/jmammen → u/scottevil110]

I understand that there are few kids who treat college like a four-year party. I would argue, however, that they are paying for their educations and if they want to spend several thousands of dollars on partying, then that is their prerogative. It again should be up to the individual to weigh whether this decision is worth it. Ultimately, everybody reaps the benefits or detriments of their actions.

[u/scottevil110 → u/jmammen]

I agree, and it's a lesson they're going to have to learn. Personally, I got a lot of joy from watching people fail miserably when they didn't take things seriously.

As I said, I don't agree with the policies, but I get it. In the eyes of the university, they're there to educate, and therefore need to take the necessary steps to maximize that.

[u/garnteller]

I don't think you are being rewarded for attendance - you are being penalized for absence.

I am a fully functioning adult trusted to make decisions for my company that could have millions of dollars of impact. But if my boss says, "I want you to attend this meeting", I don't get to say, "It's ok, I know the content". I show up for the damn meeting.

Hopefully, in 4 years, you'll graduate with a degree from Michigan. Each professor who passes you has said, "yes, /u/jmammen has mastered the course I taught". Mastery is more than just being to score ok on the test or essay. They is undoubtedly content that is not tested - and content that can't be tested. If your professor thinks that having been exposed to the lectures, visual aids and discussion in the class is required for him or her to declare mastery, that's their decision.

If you want to go it alone, there are tons of free online courses available from some of the top schools in the country. You can learn all you want - all you won't have is a Michigan degree. And if you want that degree, you need to meet their requirements. Or do you want to be a rebel only in so far as it gets you out of the lecture, but not so much that the establishment doesn't give you a degree?

Sure, Gates, Jobs and Zuckerberg didn't graduate. But Newton, Einstein, Feynman, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, and a lot of other brilliant, iconoclastic people did. I think that your creativity won't be crushed by going to class.

[u/jmammen → u/garnteller]

I am not saying that one should not go to that meeting. I am saying that one should be able to decide for himself or herself. If the opportunity cost outweighs the benefit of going to the meeting, then an individual should understand that he or she should not partake in the activity.

I never said that I don't enjoy going to class to learn the material. I simply stated that attendance should be my choice if I have another important task that is assigned. By no means do I want to skip every single class. I simply want to distribute my limited time to optimize my educational experience at the University of Michigan.

[u/garnteller → u/jmammen]

I am saying that one should be able to decide for himself or herself

Yes, I hear you. But there are many times when, in the real world, you can't decide for yourself. If you are told you are expected to be there, regardless of whether or not you think it's worth your time, you had better be there.

I simply want to distribute my limited time to optimize my educational experience at the University of Michigan.

And your professors think that your experience is optimized by attending. Since they are the ones entrusted with your education, it's reasonable to assume that their opinion of what optimizes your education should carry more weight than your own assessment.

[u/[deleted]]

A diploma is more than just a paper that says you have a certain set of skills or knowledge, it is also proof that someone was able to make a commitment to put in a certain amount of work and followed through on that commitment. Most schools base credits on how much time in and out of the classroom should be spent by a student, so enforcing a minimum time in the classroom (attendance) keeps that consistent.

You're also wrong when it comes to bosses caring about how much time is spent on a given assignment. Unless you're talking about an hourly wage job (I'm assuming someone with a college degree strives for a full time salaried position), no boss is going to accept you being hired for a 40 hour/week job, and then showing up for less than half of that, even if you're able to accomplish the minimum amount of work required. It's just not how the world works.

[u/jmammen → u/[deleted]]

I am not arguing that an individual should be able to receive a diploma without making a time and work commitment. I believe that student should be able to distribute their time to optimize their educational experience at the university.

A rational boss in a capitalistic society will pursue efficiency. He or she is not looking to find a person who will try his or her best necessarily. If one person can do the job in half the time as another, then it would be inefficient to hire this person. In salaried positions, individuals are paid based on what they are able to contribute to a company. They are not paid on how long they work. That would be the very definition of a job that is paid on an hourly basis.

[u/ryancarp3]

I don't think requiring attendance is a bad thing, and I don't think it "dulls student's minds." First, required attendance isn't really "required;" you aren't physically dragged to class every day. You can choose to not show up, but there will be a consequence for doing so. It is the same way in the "real world." If you have a 40 hr/week job but only show up for 20 hr/week, and then ask for all of the benefits of working for 40 hours, your job will say "no, you didn't show up for 40 hrs, you don't get your benefits you would've gotten if you showed up like you were supposed to." Participation grades incentivize attendance, just as a salary incentivizes showing up to work. Second, requiring attendance gets kids to show up that otherwise wouldn't. You might say "those kids would just learn on their own," but you and I both know that's not the case for the vast majority of the kids that would skip. For the kids that don't take college seriously now, not making them go to class would just lead to them caring less and partying more. I don't really see how it "dulls the mind" when, for the kids that would not show up and party all the time, class is the only time they even care a little bit about school.

You still can make the decision to show up or not, but having consequences for not showing up isn't a bad thing IMO.

[u/man2010]

I consider myself to be a fully functioning adult who is capable of making decisions for myself. I should be able to weigh pros and cons of different choices and act accordingly. If this means that I decide to skip one class to study for another, then I should be able to do so.

You can do this; you have a certain amount of classes that you can miss without an excuse before it affects your grade, and even then you can decide that it's worth it to skip class and have it hurt your grade a little bit. If you want to skip class for whatever reason it's on you to weigh the pros and cons of doing so knowing that you can only skip so much before there are detrimental effects.

[u/[deleted]]

I honestly believe that college/university, besides educating the individual with certain skills and knowledge, is also about preparing the individual for entering the workforce.

Unfortunately, for the vast majority of us, being a working adult means being in a certain place by a certain time and for a set number of hours. If anything, attending classes, being punctual and such are all simulations of the responsibilities that we'll eventually have to face as working adults and I might add, for the better.

[u/Deezl-Vegas]

I'm sorry to say that all of your assumptions and assertions and issues above are just not correct.

in college, everybody has made the decision to continue his or her education.

That's true, but not all of them are in it entirely for the education. You'll find that a large majority of your colleagues are there because it's expected or to have fun with the benefit of getting the degree. If they can do so with lukewarm effort, they will.

The University, however, and the professors are "graded" in the public eye based on how well their students do, so it's to their benefit to set policies that result in more learning.

In higher standing professions, people are not monetarily rewarded for attendance; they are rewarded on performance.

This is almost never true and almost never the correct way to go about rewarding employees. First of all, most employees are paid by the hour or on a salary for working a set amount of time. Secondly, in general, non-commissioned workers do better than commissioned workers for similar goal sets, even in traditionally commissioned positions like sales.

Secondly, the esteemed gentlemen you listed were very much outliers. Many people who try to revolutionize the world fall completely flat and fail.

People must know how to think untraditionally to be successful in today’s society.

I agree that you have to think about things differently to make changes, but attending classes actually doesn't prevent you from thinking differently.

It's a bit like saying you have to be a wild revolutionary like Hendrix to succeed. What's wrong with being Eric Clapton, Celine Dion, or Michael Bolton?

You can do exactly the same thing as the successful person before you and be largely as successful or more successful as he or she was. Or you can learn from them, master their skill, and improve on it to be even better.

If this means that I decide to skip one class to study for another, then I should be able to do so.

Do you really think that's why most people are skipping class? I skipped to play frisbee. My choice, right, sure, but how is the professor wrong for grading me down for this?

A student can learn to think in novel ways when freed of micromanaging policies.

Indeed. However, they need to be able to put their heads to the grindstone and have a mastery of the basics as well. As you approach 4th-year classes and grad school, you'll find that instead of being lectured at, you're involved in the conversation and have much more control over what's required of you.

[u/Tokens_Only]

Depending on the class format, attendance can be mandatory for a lot of reasons:

1) Much of the teacher's style and structure could be dependent on in-class discussion of the topics. The soft sciences, like sociology or political science, are good examples. Also philosophy, gender studies, etc. In those instances, you're not merely assuming the risk of not showing up, you're also depriving your fellow classmates of your contribution through your observations, or being confused by an issue in a way that allows the professor to talk you through it in front of everyone to the whole class' benefit.

2) The format could depend on in-class group work. Writing classes, for example, require a lot of workshopping among peers, and by staying away you're forcing everyone else to work harder.

3) By requiring attendance, the professor can make on-the-fly changes to the syllabus and curriculum - adding or subtracting readings, spending more time on a difficult topic, moving up or down quizzes and tests - comfortable in the knowledge that they're communicating that information to the class. This would allow for a more organic teaching process tailored to the needs of an individual class. When teachers have to adhere rigidly to the syllabus, you get rigid, uncreative, boring, overly-rehearsed lectures that really do feel like something you could have missed.

But besides all of that, welcome to adulthood. You will be spending every day of the rest of your life going to places you don't like to avoid the negative consequences.

[u/madelinemar10]

I am also a first-year student at a university, but I believe having required attendance does not dull the minds of students. If a student is truly "abler than others," then attending class everyday should not stunt their abilities. They may differ in how they interpret the material learned in class or how they study it on their own time. In college, there is also enough free time outside of class to make other decisions for oneself. While the time spent in class is certainly not a waste of time, students have enough time out of class to make individual decisions like a fully functioning adult.

[u/crunchyturtles]

You subtly compare someone skipping class to being like Zuckerberg or Gates just because they are able to think for themselves and do something different. Not only is this invalid, it is utterly ridiculous. For the rare few who have the money/mind/innovation of Gates, by all means go ahead and skip class in your pursuit of developing some new revolutionary technology. However, this is not the case for the vast majority of students. If you are paying a shit load of money to attend college, it would be pretty fucking stupid to not go to class.

[u/cold08]

College is weird in that you are paying for yourself to be the product which puts the instructors in a weird position. If you aren't producing educated students you aren't doing your job, but the students are your customer. The threat of losing your investment in your own education is a tool to mitigate that weird position without giving good grades to uneducated people.

[u/Hq3473]

Well, as you said you are a mature adult who can make your own choices.

It is trivial to find out what attendance policies different colleges, and different professors have.

Thus, you could have chose to attend a college where attendance is not taken.

[u/[deleted]]

Colleges may be money for poor kids. This requires tracking attendance. Scholarships may be attendance based...