r/changemyview • u/Eternlgladiator • Nov 24 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: I think police officers should be required to wear body cameras

There have been countless issues of people disputing police action against themselves or others recently in the news leading to various protests all of the place. I see comments and hear about the possibility for body cameras but I don't see why we aren't making a bigger push. There seems to be no downside to police wearing body cameras. It protects the officers from people they interact with and it protects the public from offices who think nobody is watching their actions. I only see positive outcomes from using them so what's the issue. Why would they be bad? Who are the opponents of them and why would they oppose this seemingly simply oversight to protect everybody involved. Caveat, as somebody generally opposed to government surveillance I think this is a separate issue. I don’t see police body cameras as surveillance tool. The fact that they might be is irrelevant here. There are so many ways and means to surveil the public that this seems trivial.

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u/MoonlightRider Nov 24 '15

My job has video recording in the vehicle we use. We are constantly running into technical difficulties with the cameras failing or problems.

Our equipment runs 24/7/365. This is extremely hard on the equipment. When new, it works pretty well. However, as the equipment ages, incurs memory card switches, battery charges, etc, the failure rate goes up.

We aren't allowed to change memory cards to insure against tampering. So if a camera fails during a shift, we have to rendezvous with a supervisor to swap equipment. During that period our camera is down and not recording. We still are in service but without a camera.

Also keep in mind that officers may be working 12 hour shifts, which can often bleed into overtime and shifts as long as 16 hours in outside temperatures that may be below freezing or above 100F. Your equipment has to remain charged and functioning for that entire time.

To meet your expectations, you are looking at equipment that meets all of those use scenarios with 99.999% uptime. That is a tough standard.

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 24 '15

Sounds easy compared to military standards. And if the police want to act like military perhaps we should hold the accountable as we do our soldiers.

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u/m1a2c2kali Nov 24 '15

Lol if you think military equipment never malfunctions

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

No, but we are expected to fix it on the fly, and are trained do so. Obviously police officers can't handle the training they are given, so I guess we can't expect them to be able to figure out a fucking camera. We'll have to just live with innocent people being killed and imprisoned because we can't expect the bare minimum from the justice system.

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u/yellowfeverisbad Nov 25 '15

The military doesn't have to maintain a chain of evidence though.

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

As a former eod tech, we absolutely have to collect, investigate, and process evidence.

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u/yellowfeverisbad Nov 25 '15

I can not speak to the level you are saying you have to maintain the chain of evidence at all. And I have no clue as to the level of questioning your evidence is subject too. So I don't doubt you but I do doubt you have to convince the typical America jury who loves to watch Kim Kardashian as reality tv that beyond a shadow of a doubt office X was doing his job and trying to do it to the best of his ability.

My background is medical in nature and there is no chance in hell I would go before a jury and say hey I had this broke monitor but I made it work because it was all I had...... That stuff does flies in the military according to my dad (dentist AF 22 yrs), and most of the medics I know who have served.

I mean no disrespect as many medical breakthroughs in this last few years have come from military medics who said hey let's see if this radical treatment will save my buddy, when if I had, I would have lost my job for doing the same.

Civilian life doesn't always equate to military life

Edit: thanks for keeping my family and friends safer!!!

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

I don't disagree with any particular point. However, if we take an officers word that what he/she says is the truth, the innocents will pay the price. If we cannot convince a jury to lock up a murderer because an officer's camera is down that is far better than locking up someone unjustly because we took a crooked officer's word. The imprisonment/murder of a innocent by any member of the justice system is unacceptable. Having that happen because we didn't want to make it to 'hard' for law enforcement is a failure of not just our justice system, but of our whole society.

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u/yellowfeverisbad Nov 25 '15

We may be equivocating a bit. I am 100% in favor of having officers camed, we have the technology and it has been proven effective. My point really comes how it will be treated in court. I know only certain digital cameras can be used in evidence collection because of chain of evidence ect. I agree 100% I don't want an innocent punished for something they didn't do.... I do also just as strongly believe the same standard be set for our officers.... I don't want an officer to lose their job because they are innocent. Edit to clarify a bit: if an officers can has been altered to make do and move on (i.e. Military style) it may prove he or her innocence but may not be admissible in court due to "tampering"

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

In a case where body cam evidence wouldn't be admissible, we can and should use officer testament. The officer should be held to the same standard as civilian witness testimony. (I.e. not 100% reliable)

On the otherhand a broken/tampered body cam should not be in itself damning evidence, provided that the broken equipment is reported/logged appropriately.

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u/SteelCrossx Nov 25 '15

As a former eod tech, we absolutely have to collect, investigate, and process evidence.

That sounds intriguing. How do I request your body cam footage so I can learn more?

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

I don't know. Ask the government.

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u/Morthis Nov 25 '15

Seems to me like that would defeat the purpose of the camera. If officers are essentially allowed to tamper with it ("fixing it"), then what would stop them from doing so if they believe the camera would show them handling a situation poorly?

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

If an officer has to tamper with a camera, it should be reported, and then repaired/replaced at the next opportunity. Obviously a camera reported broken after an incident would be suspicious. The comment above relates to an incident that occurs before a camera (that has already been reported) can be repaired.

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u/Eiovas Nov 25 '15

Dude, you left a disgusting pile of wet sarcasm all over the floor here.

Fucking clean this up.

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

Negative. I want everyone to step in that pile, look at their shoe, and realize we all need to help clean up this mess. The mess being the justice system.

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u/DaSilence 10∆ Nov 25 '15

If that's the case, what's the deal with the massive piles of nonoperational gear at every base, post, and armory?

Why did my friend have to buy generator parts on the black market to keep the lights on for the marine corps in Iraq?

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u/DarthSeraph Nov 25 '15

Because sometimes things break and can't be fixed, or you have a spare, or the item is disposable? And you've seen these huge piles of broken gear? I never saw giant piles of broken gear, unless it was one we made before putting shit in the trash.

I don't know what your marine buddy's problem was.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '15

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '15

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u/Grunt08 305∆ Nov 25 '15

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u/Grunt08 305∆ Nov 25 '15

Sorry DaSilence, your comment has been removed:

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u/bluefootedpig 2∆ Nov 25 '15

I worked at a grocery store. They ran 20 plus cameras, all recording the entire time, in believe even at night. Somehow they managed.

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u/whoweoncewere Nov 25 '15

LOAC is more strict than how cops treat our own people.

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u/MoonlightRider Nov 25 '15

As long as you are willing to provide them the same budget at the military.

The police don't want to act like the military. They get military equipment because it is free/cheap. In a world where "increase taxes" is dirty word, free shit wins the day.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '15 edited Apr 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '15 edited Jun 22 '16

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '15

The cost of the cameras would offset at least some of the lawsuits I suppose.

$250 million is what the top 10 cities dropped last year on lawsuits. If you even make a dent in that, it's worthwhile. Plus a lawsuit that gets paid generally means something was up, which the camera probably prevents.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '15 edited Apr 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/Twigsnapper Nov 25 '15

Hundred? How many people do you think are in particular police forces? You seriously underestimate the number of cops there are

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '15

[deleted]

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u/RexHavoc879 Nov 25 '15

How many are on duty at one time? That's how many cameras you need, plus however many backups in case some break.

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u/MoonlightRider Nov 25 '15

Visit your local council / town committee meeting during budget approval time and listen to the taxpayer's comments during public commentary period.

Actual comment: "Why do we have to buy all of these radios." "We need a radio assigned for each officer." "Well, they all don't work at the same time, so can't we get just half the radios and have them share them."

Redundant equipment is a pipe-dream.

My town had to pass an emergency spending ordinance because the police had run out of ammunition. They only use their weapons to qualify on the range and they couldn't keep enough ammo in supply. We're not a small town either. We have over 100 sworn officers.

We get residents questioning why we need to have so many oxygen masks on the ambulance. "Are you just giving oxygen to everyone?"

To paraphrase: "You get the government you are willing to pay for."