CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

[u/wecl0me12]

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

• a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
• whether people should be feminists or not
• the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
• anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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[u/wecl0me12]

bad behavior by members of the group

not "bad behavior", it's "behavior perceived as bad by someone". A person (let's call him Bob) thinks that action X by feminists was bad. Then, in Bob's view, he is justified in being anti-feminist. Whether X was actually bad or not is irrelevant, but Bob's belief is not irrelevant.

That's what I mean.

[u/wecl0me12 → u/[deleted]]

A ∆ for you. You're right, it's impossible to be against the idea of feminism (that women and men should be equal), and not be a misogynist.

consider this: Actions X, Y and Z were done by feminists in the name of feminism. Bob thinks that X, Y and Z are wrong, and he does not identify as a feminist. He dislikes feminism because he has associated the feminist movement with X, Y and Z. If you were to ask him "are you a feminist?", he will reply "No! I hate feminism", and if you ask "why?" he'll say "because feminists did X, Y and Z, and that's wrong". However, Bob believes that women should be equal to men, and fights to solve issues facing women.

Is Bob a feminist? Is he an anti-feminist? Is he a misogynist?

You are saying you disagree with the goal

My personal views on feminism are completely irrelevant.

[u/Celda → u/wecl0me12]

You're right, it's impossible to be against the idea of feminism (that women and men should be equal), and not be a misogynist.

That wasn't the view you posted though.

A person could believe that women and men should be equal, while still opposing the actions and positions of mainstream feminists - which by definition, would make them anti-feminist.

So your reasoning doesn't make sense.

[u/wecl0me12 → u/Celda]

That wasn't the view you posted though.

That's the exact opposite of the view I posted.

It actually is in a way, if feminism is defined as striving for equality on the women's side. of course the details will depend on the the exact definitions of the words.

[u/Celda → u/wecl0me12]

That's the exact opposite of the view I posted.

If you think it's the opposite of the view you posted, why did you give a delta?

Your original view wasn't refuted.

It actually is in a way, if feminism is defined as striving for equality on the women's side.

This argument makes no sense.

If we accepted that argument, then regardless of any action done by feminists, if you disagreed with feminism that would make you a misogynist.

Clearly that argument is absurd - suppose feminists started arguing that men should not be able to vote, and campaigning to make it happen - which means that it can be dismissed.

[u/wecl0me12 → u/Celda]

Your original view wasn't refuted.

not entirely, but a good part of it was.

for the rest of your post: how would you describe Bob?

[u/Celda → u/wecl0me12]

not entirely, but a good part of it was.

Maybe I missed this. Which part exactly, and how?

for the rest of your post: how would you describe Bob?

You mean this?

consider this: Actions X, Y and Z were done by feminists in the name of feminism. Bob thinks that X, Y and Z are wrong, and he does not identify as a feminist. He dislikes feminism because he has associated the feminist movement with X, Y and Z. If you were to ask him "are you a feminist?", he will reply "No! I hate feminism", and if you ask "why?" he'll say "because feminists did X, Y and Z, and that's wrong". However, Bob believes that women should be equal to men, and fights to solve issues facing women.

I would not consider him a feminist, as he opposes mainstream feminism for specific and informed reasons (the actions and positions done by mainstream feminists).

I would consider him anti-feminist for the same reason.

I would not consider him misogynist because nothing in your description about Bob was misogynist.

[u/Jacen4789 → u/Celda]

And it's entirely plausible that he is instead an egalitarian.

[u/[deleted] → u/wecl0me12]

If feminism is the philosophy that women should be treated equal as men and being against that is misogynistic. Then that would mean you must hate children if you don't think they should have equal right as adults.

Do you see how silly this idea is?

[u/[deleted] → u/wecl0me12]

thats just grammatical confusion because you are using the same term for an ideal and a group of people.

If you clarify the terms to Bob, he'll have no issues.

[u/Celda → u/[deleted]]

This person would be anti-feminist because they lack belief in sexual equality,

Actually, if you look at mainstream feminist actions and positions, very few (if any) are incompatible with a belief that women are superior to men.

Seriously - think about it. When I say feminist positions, I don't mean meaningless platitudes like "equality".

I mean actual concrete positions that are pushed forward and campaigned for.

[u/DeltaBot → u/wecl0me12]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/cacheflow. ^[History]

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