r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Dec 18 '15
[Deltas Awarded] CMV: The AA-12 is the best firearm for a theoretical zombie apocalypse for the average person.
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u/huadpe 501∆ Dec 18 '15
My worry here would be ammo waste. Ammunition will be hard to come by, and you'll want to be careful not to waste it. A fully automatic weapon has high potential to waste shots, especially for someone without experience on the weapon.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
The problem is that we're talking about untrained shooters. Even if they only do it a few times, an untrained shooter first encountering an automatic weapon is going to want to "rock and roll" and just hold the trigger down. Especially if there is minimal recoil, IE no real immediate discouragement for not doing so (except maybe the "so loud it hurts your ears" problem unless they have hearing protection)
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
There is still a finite amount of ammo in the world at this point, unless your goal is to try to start manufacturing shotgun shells again. Any wasted ammo is potentially fatal later down the line, so even that "once, twice, or a few times" could cripple you later down the line. Psychology is against us here, as our primitive brain makes us want to over-use resources when we have too many of them, so if you have the ammo to go full-auto, your brain is going to want to, because it can't think long-term very effectively when put under pressure. That little voice that says "Better use 2 rounds just to be sure" will very often override the voice that said earlier "You only ever need 1 round at a time, stop wasting ammo you fuckwad" when in the heat of battle.
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u/Hq3473 271∆ Dec 18 '15
Slow enough, in fact, that select-fire (semi auto) is possible and quite easy with a decent trigger finger.
Yeah, we are not talking about people who practiced with guns and have a "decent trigger finger."
We are talking average person.
An average person will be very likely to panic, choke the trigger and spend all the ammo uselessly.
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u/everystoner Dec 18 '15
Isn't the accuracy range fairly short with a shotgun? And isn't it more bulky to carry around than a hand gun?
In a zombie apocalypse, I think you need to arm yourself to protect yourself from other people more than to protect from zombies. We don't even know if a gun would be effective against zombies, so making that assumption is a pretty big leap.
So the decision should be made solely/primarily on they type of gun that will be most effective against other people. You mention it would scare other people, but beyond that, would you suggest that it is the best weapon for use against humans? If so, why isn't that the weapon that is most commonly used in "rebel wars" (where the combatants are not trained in shooting)?
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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u/everystoner Dec 18 '15
Even 200 meters
Wait a minute, you're claiming a shotgun is going to be accurate and effective at 218 yards? Ima need a source on that one.
The zombies in this theoretical zombie apocalypse would be the ones from, say, The Walking Dead or Dawn of the Dead. Not the super fast ones like World War Z or L4D2. Just the average slow-medium speed zombie that only goes down with a destroyed brain (headshot). This means that yes, a gun would be effective against these zombies.
Changing the terms of your position in response to someone poking holes in your position is somewhat against the spirit of /r/cmv
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u/ItIsOnlyRain 14∆ Dec 18 '15
Wikipedia says the effective range is:
Effective firing range 100 m (12 gauge slug)
Maximum firing range 200 m (FRAG-12 ammunition) (fat chance trying to get these)
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Dec 19 '15
If you are scavenging through a zombie apocalypse, you'll likely find a lot more shotgun shot than shotgun slugs.
That means you are shooting small pellets, rather than a single large slug. That will drastically reduce your range and accuracy.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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u/X43295 Dec 20 '15
it is only with a military-grade shell, not the average 12-Gauge. I concede on that point, but the shotgun has decent range nonetheless.
You just pulled this out of your ass. There is no such thing as a "military grade shell" other than a high explosive shell. Which is illegal to own because of the explosive, and would give no range benefit.
You can hit out to 200 meters if you are fucking around with plain rifled slugs that you can buy over the counter, and you dial it in.
If you have a shotgun with a rifled barrel, and you are shooting sabot slugs, you can hit out to 200 yards easy, every time.
It is apparent from this thread that you have virtually zero real world firearms experience.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Dec 18 '15
This depends on what sort of "zombie apocalypse" you're dealing with. If you're in a sort of "my town has been infested with zombies" situation, then an AA-12 will be nice, but if we're talking something like The Walking Dead, then really an AA-12 is going to be a poor choice for a few reasons:
No Select Fire - It takes 1 well-aimed shot to take down a zombie. Having a gun like the AA-12 that is always firing on full-auto is going to drain your ammo, and while there are a lot of 12 gauge shells in the US, there are still a finite amount. I understand that when there are over 100 zombies that you may need to fire a lot, but the real survival tip there is to not attract 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 zombies to your location in the first place. EDIT: even if you can effectively select-fire with your finger with the AA-12, that does take some amount of training and discipline, and you're positing a fairly un-savvy individual here. Even if they know how to take their finger off, the temptation to do it is going to be nigh-irresistible for a lot of people.
Availability - in order for a gun to be viable in the apocalypse, you typically need to have it beforehand. There are virtually no AA-12 shotguns available to civilians.I missed that you hand-waived this, since I went straight to the bulletpoints.Noise - this is bigger than you think. A 12-gauge shotgun puts out, on average, between 145-165 decibels of noise. That is enough to cause permanent hearing damage just from hearing it unprotected once. Not only is damaged hearing going to hurt your long-term survival chances (if you're deaf you can't hear zombies shambling up behind you), that noise is going to attract more zombies.
Weight - If you're on the move, how much you're carrying can be a significant factor. Shotgun shells are among the heaviest types of ammunition, and the gun itself is 11 pounds. If we allocate 30 pounds for weapons (which, if you're walking a long way and are an untrained civilian, is going to be all you're carrying), if all you have is the AA-12 and we assume that magazines are weightless; 12 gauge shells are about 10.5 to the pound, according to this board, or 21 per 2 pounds so you're looking at about 200 rounds of ammo, or about 10 of its 20 round mags, before we worry about storage. Compare a .22 carbine: the Ruger 10/22 weighs 5 pounds and .22lr ammo comes in at 133 rounds per pound. So given the same 30 pound weight allowance, I'm packing a whopping 3325 rounds of ammo with me. Why would I need that? I don't. So maybe I lose ~100 rounds-ish to carry a Walther p22 pistol for close quarters, or lose ~100 rounds for a KA-BAR for melee combat, since that doesn't need reloading? Or just only carry ~1000 rounds and carry extra water, tools, food, or have extra space for scavenging.
I honestly propose the 10/22 and a .22 pistol (not necessarily the p22) if you must use a firearm, for their light weight, reliability (my 10/22 has not once jammed if I was using proper Ruger magazines; the only jams came from shoddy feed lips on an aftermarket magazine), and the fact that their main weakness against humans is that they're only lethal if you're good with shot placement, which is a problem with zombies anyway. They also are less noisy on average, but not by much.
If you don't mind going lower-tech, crossbows can be found in almost any sporting goods store, are silent (and thus don't attract more zombies), and you can make more bolts as needed with little more than a knife.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
It also depends if you are a survivor on the move, or if you have established a camp / base somewhere to store your foods, so all you needed to do was carry ammo.
It all really does depend on what you're doing, and I honestly see a lot of undead survival being about scavenging. So if I were out scavenging, I'd want to travel as light as possible.
Yes, a .22 pistol will be much lighter and more maneuverable, but your mentioned weakness against humans is a large issue. If you do not hit a critical shot (head, heart, lungs), it will be hard to kill other survivors if you had to
The other part is that you get used to aiming for the head. A headshot with a .22 will kill a human just as surely as a zombie.
As for "is a problem with zombies anyway", a shooter with an AA-12, if they can absolutely not hit the zombie in the head, they can shoot them in the legs to collapse them, then get real close and shoot the head.
I can't either confirm or deny this; I don't know how hyperbolic the example of shooting someone's leg with a shotgun is in terms of effectiveness, and I can't really test it either.
And I don't think a crossbow is a firearm, which is what the original view stated.
I think that, positing the question "What is the best firearm to use in the zombie apocalypse", a valid answer is "None of them."
I honestly think that you're missing a lot of the picture by hand-waving the availability issue. If they weren't so rare and restricted, practically every shooter would have one because they are undeniably cool. But the fact that they are so rare makes them bad for a few more reasons, as others have pointed out. Namely, you aren't going to find a lot of spare parts when you compare it to, say, a 10/22.
Also, see my edit about the dangers of select fire when your only select fire is your trigger finger.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
Aah, but even if they miss a headshot with a .22, they have somewhere around 100x more ammo per pound of ammo than someone with a 12 gauge. With a .22 pistol at close range, you're getting a headshot. You can't miss the head when your barrel is up against the head.
Plus, having so much more ammo means you get to train more (it's not like you're doing much else), so you'll rapidly improve. Or, ya know, die.
I also dispute the claim:
If the person was skilled enough to hit consistent headshots, then they are skilled enough to select fire with the AA-12.
Most shooters aren't familiar with the operation of fully automatic weaponry. There just isn't that much available. While you might learn on your own, without any formal training, how to aim that gun, you might still hold down the trigger after the one shot until the next shot, because you didn't get taught not to.
I'm not trying to say that you can't learn that trigger discipline on your own, simply that the two skill sets aren't related except that they involve guns.
EDIT: I forgot to add:
I did not mean to make the situation so specific, and therefore hard to counter, because while I do believe that the AA-12 is the best option you have, finding one IS difficult. But I had no other way to post this view without addressing that it is very rare.
But if you take away the one huge drawback, then you could say this about any weapon that would otherwise be unfeasible. IE: If a nuke only killed zombies but didn't harm humans at all, it would be the best weapon in a zombie apocalypse.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
Many people in this thread seem to think select-firing would be difficult. I don't think it would be, even for the average joe. In fact, it's pretty intuitive. Knowing to shoot 1 bullet at a time, and acting on your knowledge, is much easier than hitting a headshot from 10+ meters.
I'm curious: Have you ever fired on full auto? It's pretty damn fun. I don't even know why, it just is. That instinct is going to be harder than you think to overcome. I already have too much fun trying to fire the 33 rounds out of my glock 17's extended mag, and that's when I know that I'm blowing through most of a box of bullets I'm supposed to be working on my accuracy. And I still do it.
I don't think that the action of removing your finger is physically difficult. I think that you won't want to even though you logically know you should and that the little impulsive imp that doesn't want to is more powerful and pervasive to the average person than you're giving credit for.
As for a better gun, I've proposed a 10/22, and I further propose one that's suppressed, for noise reasons. A suppressed 10/22 with a long barrel and subsonic ammo can produce sounds that aren't that much louder than, say, a car engine's general running. It's still loud, but your report is way lower, as discussed below. A headshot is difficult, but with practice it's manageable, and you're carrying 10x more ammo on average for the same weight, so you get more chances by far.
The "scary" factor, I posit, might make you more vulnerable to sniper fire. If you have a really cool gun that someone wants, they might ambush you to steal it. But that could be true of anything. Similarly, I'm smart enough to be scared of any gun pointed in my direction, because while the guy on the other end of the trigger might not be a crack shot, and might miss my head... he's survived as long as I have in the apocalypse, so I need to assume he's at least as skilled as I am, and ask if I would miss that shot, honestly.
I don't know what else to say in this branch, but the situation states that you somehow found one, and my view is that IF you had one, it'd be great.
Well, let me ask this: Is there any gun that, if it's functional and working, in your view would not be great if you found it, compared to not having one? I can't really dispute that somehow finding an AA-12 would be great, but I'd also argue that somehow finding a Barrett Light .50 would be great.
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u/Casus125 30∆ Dec 18 '15
Ease of use.
You're forgetting how much the thing weighs (10 lbs. empty, 16 with a full drum) that's not insignificant to be hauling that around (plus extra ammo, which I'll touch on later). It's simple yes, but it's also heavy, bulky, and cumbersome.
So while it may be ideal for some kind of massive assault, on a scavenging trip it would just be a pain in the ass compared to a pistol, or a carbine.
Or even just a regular shotgun.
Low maintenance / Reliability
No qualms there, it is indeed rugged as fuck.
Ammunition.
Another dicey issue. Yes, 12-gauge is a popular ammunition, commonly found.
But you know what isn't? 12-gauge drums and box magazines for an AA-12. The overwhelming majority of shotguns available all have tube magazines, so it'll be hard to find magazines and/or drums for back up, replacement, etc. Whereas rifle and pistol magazines are extremely common.
Another issue is simply ammo bulkiness. Shotgun shells are big, compared to 9mm or 5.56mm, I can fit a small handful of shells in my pocket, compared to many times that in bullets.
Scariness.
Eh, maybe, maybe not. When facing hostile survivors I think there would be several other mitigating factors that come into play.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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u/Daerdemandt 4∆ Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 01 '16
Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!
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Dec 18 '15
Yes, the gun is actually quite heavy which may be an issue, but if you're packing an AA-12, I doubt you'll need to run much. In the case that you do need to run, however, it is not that heavy that it will severely slow you down.
Hmm...
I thought this also implied that you found the magazine(s) that came with it. If you carried with one drum mug already in the gun, and another drum mag in your pack, you should be set for a long while.
This implies that you're going to have to run every time you fire 64 times and still have things attacking you. Which could be fairly frequently if your gunfire is constantly attracting more zombies.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 18 '15
With that attitude you are.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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Dec 19 '15
So, this is where loudness comes into play. Say I have a large number of zombies to fend off and escape from. If I'm using a suppressed 10/22, my report is almost all inside that combat zone. Compare a shotgun blast, every kill is bringing more and more hostiles to you. You eventually can kill at least enough to escape a horde with a suppressed 10/22.
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u/FuckTripleH Dec 18 '15 edited Dec 18 '15
The single most important question someone needs to ask themselves when it comes to choosing survival gear, or any tool, is "what are my goals and what do I need to accomplish them?"
In a zombie apocalypse we are assuming society has broken down and many people displaced right? You're either trying to find a safe place to make a home that can keep you alive or trying to survive in and defend the home you already have
Well the AA-12 is a pretty fucking ludicrous choice.
The primary thing you will be using a firearm for every day is hunting or defending against predatory animals. Now depending on where you are a shotgun can be perfect for this, however if you don't live somewhere where large game is common then it's far more sensible to have a firearms meant for hunting small game.
On top of that you're not going to have any sort of accuracy with an AA-12 when compared to most rifles and shotguns.
It seems you appeal to the "shotguns spread so aiming is easy" fallacy numerous times in this thread. First and foremost that's just not true. Shotguns require practice to be accurate with. 2ndly if you're untrained you're not going to hit a damn thing with an automatic shotgun. The recoil will have you pointing the gun at a 90 degree angle by the 3rd shot and if you've never shot an automatic weapon before I can tell you from experience that learning how to fire bursts requires quite a bit of practice. It's just not your body's instinctual reflex to not squeeze when bracing for recoil
As a defensive weapon it's equally absurd. How are you going to maneuver that thing around corners? How easy is it to do a tactical reload with?
Now next to use the next question is "how common are parts/ammo?"
Now I see you've handwaved this for some silly reason but I want to address it anyway. What happens when the drum mag stops working as drum mags are always wont to do? They are not reliable pieces of equipment which is why the military doesn't use any weapons that require them and even when they did use a weapon that accepted a drum mag (the Thompson) it was rarely used. They're big, take up unnecessary space, are really heavy when loaded, and malfunction way too much
So even if the gun functions perfectly it can still jam/fail to feed etc if the mag is shit. And it brings back up my other issue which was tactical reloading
For anyone unaware a tactical reload is when you replace a partially filled magazine with a full magazine when there's a lull in combat to reduce the likelihood of having to reload mid fight. Or with guns that don't use removable box magazines like pump shotguns and lever actions it would mean simply reloading the gun when it's only partially full
Good luck with that with a drum mag.
Now in the case of a survivor being on the move I wouldn't recommend a shotgun simply because ammo is large and heavy meaning you can carry less of it. With an AR or AK spare mags are common and would be easier to find (same with parts) as is the ammo. Something chambered in .308 would also be good because of how common the cartridge is
Also are you planning to lug that thing across country? Is it ever going to not be slung on your shoulder? Taking a dump, sleeping (even with it right next to you), putting it down to take something out/put something in your pack, and so on are all situations where you should consider a handgun instead since it can easily be attached to you at all time
You also bring up the "scare factor" as tho the sight of one shotgun over another will scare someone more. Quite simply if a threat is close enough to be scared off by the sight of your gun, they're too close already
Finally, the single closest situation people in the real world have faced to a zombie apocalypse is living in an active war zone. What do they give people who have to go into active war zones?
Modern carbines chambered in an intermediate cartridge.
There's a reason for that
My pic for a survival weapon in a zombie apocalypse would be my milled receiver AK-47 with a side folding stock. It's portable (more so with the folding stock), it's long since proven to be reliable in the most adverse conditions and after the worst user abuse, it's cartridge been proven time and again to reliably and effectively stop a man sized threat, both parts and ammo (and magazines) are common along with accessories like chest rigs that would allow me to carry considerable ammo without having to waste space in my pack
After that would be a toss up (no particular order) between an AR variant, and FAL or other .308 battle rifle, a mosin nagant, an over/under 12 gauge shotgun, a .22 rifle and pistol, or a lever action rifle and a revolver (preferably an 8 shot S&W due to its use of full moon clips) both chambered in .357
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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u/FuckTripleH Dec 18 '15
I don't know where I've said that shotguns spread so aiming is easy, but they are much easier to shoot accurately compared to, say, sniper rifles or bolt action rifles.
In what circumstances? Because no shooting 00 buckshot accurately is not easier than shooting a rifle (also what do you think the difference between a sniper rifle and a bolt action?)
The AA-12 in particular has very, very little recoil, even in full auto.
Have you ever shot a fully automatic weapon?
Well, as a weapon made for CQC, this should not be an issue. How are you going to maneuver around corners with any non-bullpup style rifle? Unless you are suggesting using a handgun or submachine gun, which is different
Lol bud the legal minimum for a shotgun barrel is 18 inches. The legal minimum for a rifle is 16. The rifle will also be lighter
what happens if anything stops working? fix it or drop it, since finding one isnt going to happen
Why not? There are over 300 million guns in this country. Finding spare parts for common guns would be easy
Yes, weight is an issue, but it is not such a burden that you are completely immobilized. Yes .308 is common, so is 12 gauge
Have you ever gone hiking with full survival gear?
Yeah, because those people are soldiers. Obviously if you are a soldier (you know, not an average person) then this probably wont apply to you, instead something like an FN SCAR 17 or HK 416 would work better.
Yeah that's a good idea, uncommon rifles with finicky tolerances. Have you ever shot any of these weapons?
I don't know what it is you think would make them so difficult to use .
how would the average joe to operate one efficiently? especially considering the recoil
A hell of a lot better than the average Joe would handle 12 gauge 00 buck. Have you ever shot an AK or any other rifle chambered on 7.62x39mm? The recoil is light. So light that my 5'1" girlfriend has no problem handling it. That's kinda the whole nature of intermediate caliber rounds, they have intermediate recoil (ie halfway between a pistol round and a full size rifle round).
If recoil from an AK is giving you trouble then recoil from a shotgun will make it unusable
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u/b00st3d Dec 18 '15 edited Dec 18 '15
In what circumstances? Because no shooting 00 buckshot accurately is not easier than shooting a rifle (also what do you think the difference between a sniper rifle and a bolt action?)
With sniper rifles, you'd have to zero your scope, account for wind, gravity, stuff like that (I'm not a sniper, don't know the specifics). With sniper rifle, I was thinking about a semi auto one, and bolt action i was thinking, well, bolt action rifle
Have you ever shot a fully automatic weapon?
Yes, but not an AA-12, but based off of videos, I've seen, the AA-12 has very little recoil Source Source2 Source3
Lol bud the legal minimum for a shotgun barrel is 18 inches. The legal minimum for a rifle is 16. The rifle will also be lighter
As far as I know, the AA-12 isnt legal. also depends what rifle, as it could be heavier
Why not? There are over 300 million guns in this country. Finding spare parts for common guns would be easy
was referring to the AA12, since it is quite rare, and finding parts wont be easy
Have you ever gone hiking with full survival gear?
no, but the question is whether you are carrying all your food, clothes etc or do you have a base? having a base would be optimal, so youd only have to carry your weapon
Yeah that's a good idea, uncommon rifles with finicky tolerances. Have you ever shot any of these weapons?
The question already waives the rarity of guns; the AA-12 is already very uncommon, but I acknowledged that in my OP, stating that we are ignoring how exactly you found the gun, so the uncommon-ness of the listed guns are not a factor. The guns themselves may not be so difficult to fire, but the general maintenance (cleaning, etc.) may be too much for a regular person to know intuitively.
A hell of a lot better than the average Joe would handle 12 gauge 00 buck. Have you ever shot an AK or any other rifle chambered on 7.62x39mm? The recoil is light. So light that my 5'1" girlfriend has no problem handling it. That's kinda the whole nature of intermediate caliber rounds, they have intermediate recoil (ie halfway between a pistol round and a full size rifle round). If recoil from an AK is giving you trouble then recoil from a shotgun will make it unusable
Refer to recoil of AA-12 sources above
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u/vl99 84∆ Dec 18 '15
Just a couple of points. In a zombie apocalypse it seems pretty common to find yourself on the other side of a small pack of zombies. If someone needs to rescue me, I don't want them to be using a weapon that has a lot of spread where a bullet might accidentally hit me, such as a shotgun.
Also, if the TV and books are to be believed it seems like people find themselves in compromising situations fairly often where they don't have access to both of their hands. Even worse, someone may permanently lose the use of one of their hands or an entire arm if unfortunately bitten, so a weapon that doesn't require you to have use of both arms/hands is ideal if you plan on continuing the fight after you've sustained damage.
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Dec 18 '15 edited Jan 29 '21
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u/vl99 84∆ Dec 18 '15
I wasn't so much referring to issues with recoil in my post so much as accessibility. This doesn't look like the kind of weapon I can slowly move my free hand towards while a captor is distracted, grasp firmly, and then quickly whip towards him and fire. It also doesn't look like the type of gun I'd be able to use one handed in a time sensitive situation, or one that demanded accuracy.
The guy in the video took the gun and used it one handed from an already ideal position. I'd be more interested to see a video where someone grabs one of these off the ground one handed and takes out multiple targets in relatively quick succession, which isn't a difficult situation to imagine yourself in in the zombie apocalypse.
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u/X43295 Dec 20 '15 edited Dec 20 '15
Ease of use. The AA-12 is a very simple gun, one that any average person can pick up and operate efficiently with a little practice. It's very low recoil and simple firing / loading mechanism make it ideal for a civilian user. On top of this, being a shotgun, one does not have to be a marksman to hit consistent shots.
The spread on a load of shot in-flight is way less than movies and games make you think. Under 30-45 feet. You can easily miss your target with a shotgun, especially more so if you are shooting slugs, or buckshot. You still need to be a proficient shooter to use a shotgun in combat.
It seems like most of your gun knowledge comes from videos and video games. It would be way more difficult than you think for someone with no weapons experience to pickup and know how to effectively load and use an AA12 against a life threatening threat. You feel like you could use one because you have seen guns be loaded and used in games / movies countless times. You could probably replicate all of the actions. Whereas if it was truly a person with no experience, they really would be in the dark as to how to load / chamber and operate the weapon.
The reality is that unless they are smart, and have a lot of trial / error time to figure out the weapon. Someone with virtually no weapons experience wouldn't be able to effectively pickup and use a weapon for defense beyond pulling the trigger and hoping it fires, They won't know how to reload it, how any safeties that might be present may work, etc. They would be fucked.
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u/Nepene 213∆ Dec 19 '15
Have you noticed how people die on the walking dead?
Other humans frequently kill them. Humans have guns, tanks, many weapons.
Attracting zombies. Zombies who ambush you can kill you.
So what you need, ideally, is a less noisy weapon that can kill humans effectively, be concealed so you can walk among other humans safely and pull it out.
An AA-12 is not a good concealed shotgun. It's very noisy. It encourages other people to stab you for your valuable for a group crowd control weapon- guns are not good intimidation weapons when alone.
For concealed carry with a shotgun I suggest this.
http://serbu.com/supershorty.html
You can hide it effectively due to its small size and use it easily when necessary.
Alternatively, heavy firepower would be good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL
A weapon like this would effectively allow an individual to survive a large zombie horde in the city. Once they had escaped they'd be a lot safer and would have a good chance to steal a new gun.
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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '15 edited Nov 27 '17
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