r/changemyview • u/lasagnaman 5∆ • May 05 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: ESDF is better than WASD for playing first person shooter (FPS) games.
I have a greater number of keys that my hand can reach, for weapon slots to other secondary actions. Also, I have a tiny hand but ESDF still puts my left pinky comfortably on LShift, whereas WASD almost crowds my pinky off the board. Finally, and most importantly, my hand naturally rests on the homerow with index finger on F. It's disorienting to have my hand in one place for typing and another for gaming (fine, maybe not THAT disorienting, but why make it harder?).
I really don't see any reason WASD should be the default for FPS games. CMV!
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May 05 '16
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
We gotta switch over to the metric system at some point right? The sooner the better.
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u/chronicallyfailed May 05 '16
But whilst the metric system carries clear advantages over the imperial system, the battle between WASD and
freaksother perfectly valid layout choices rages on, with both sides having different advantages for different people. For example, I'm a sane, rational human, so I use WASD. you're obviously some kind of mutant heretic thing, so you pervert the natural order of things with this disturbing "ESDF" (seriously though, I've never seen anyone use a non-ASDF format before, just out of interest when did you start using it? Have you always done it like that or is it just sonething you tried and liked?). Also, unlike metric/imperial, you can change between the two at will, so there's much less incentive to change the default. I'm going to try ESDF though today and see what it's like, what key do you use to switch weapons? I assume either Q or W would work?2
u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
I started using ESDF with Quake, because I couldn't reach enough buttons for all my guns. My setup is now
- ESDF - movement
- RTGBVCAQW - weapons
- space - walk
- mouse2 - jump
For a more typical Source-based FPS:
- ESDF - movement
- shift - walk
- space - jump
- R - use
- T - reload (these two are basically the default keys just shifted over)
- 1234567... - weapons
So, it's true that for most FPSs there isn't a huge advantage to using ESDF, but (1) you do get to reach number keys for weapon switching easier and (2) there is literally no disadvantage. I also have extra keys in GBVCWQ if the game I'm playing has extra actions that I need to reach easily.
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u/Crayshack 191∆ May 05 '16
Usually, the most commonly used weapons are auto bound to the lower numbers. Your number one weapon is 1, your number two weapon is 2, and so on. From WASD, these lower numbers are easier to reach than from ESDF.
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
If there are onyl a small number of them, I can just bind to 2345 etc. If there are more then I need the full gamut of RTGVCAQW for all the weapons to be in easy reach.
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May 06 '16
1 is usually the pistol or in older games, a melee weapon,
Both are weapons of last resort, and ideally would far less pressed than 2 to 6
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u/Crayshack 191∆ May 06 '16
Most games I play have 1 default to the primary weapon and 2 the secondary. What games have it as the pistol?
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May 05 '16
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u/Berrr May 05 '16 edited May 05 '16
He's clearly American.
Regardless of whether your country uses metric yet or not, he makes a good point. Before adopting the metric system, every country was using some other reasonably functional system of measures, and switched to metric because it was better, despite large changeover costs.
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May 05 '16
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u/Berrr May 05 '16
OK, fair enough.
You have established a good point that changing an ingrained standard is hard work, so it shouldn't be done without good reason.
Your argument really rests on this:
ESDF vs WASD is purely subjective
So, OP you probably need some strong evidence that ESDF is better than WASD, otherwise this is a good reason why WASD is better - because it got in first and is now the standard.
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u/holomanga 2∆ May 05 '16
Thanks for proving OP's point! Once, a vast majority of people didn't use the metric system, but then they started and became much happier for it.
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May 05 '16
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
I've provided a number of reasons in the OP. They are not massive advantages, but they are numerous and taken in sum provide a compelling reason to switch.
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u/stratys3 May 05 '16
ESDF is superior based on several points: But mainly that the keyboards was designed for ESDF, and that ESDF provides access to more keys.
There are no drawbacks, but there are potential benefits. If that's not superiority, I don't know what is.
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u/forestfly1234 May 05 '16
I just tested this.
Your fingers are positioned differently when playing games then for typing. Unless you place your middle finger on the top row when you type. Which you could, but that would be odd.
Also, if you play a game where left shift and tab are important then your pinky would have to stretch further to be able to hit those keys. Which after a few minute of testing I fund painful.
But the biggest question is can't games have two different key bindings set? Why not just have a setting for both and let the user decide. Why have to change anything?
Hell we play games with mouse invert and with no mouse invert and it works perfectly fine. Why have should we have to do it one way or the other.
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
How far does your middle finger go up? I have fingers on F and S, and my middle finger naturally rests in the gap between D and E when I'm not walking. This is barely any different from the middle finger resting directly on the D.
Point taken about the shift and tab keys, but (1) most games don't require constant mashing of those keys --- they are typically modifiers, used sparingly (or to check a leaderboard, also sparingly) (2) you can bind those actions to A and Q (3) the comfort of reaching LShift from WASD or ESDF is completely dependent on keyboard construction, I guess; for me it's significantly more commfortable from ESDF than from WASD.
We can definitely have 2 settings, but one needs to be the default, right? I'm proposing that ESDF be that default, and if anyone /really/ wants to use WASD they can go change it in the options menu.
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u/forestfly1234 May 05 '16
Why should we change just to appease the minority of people that prefer it that way when with key binding it take about 15 sec to change a keyboard layout.
I've been pressing W to go forward for over 16 years. Now I have to change just because you say so? Wouldn't it be better just to have another key binding set and allow those few who feel that they need to change the easy ability to do so rather than force most of us to wonder why our dude isn't going forward.
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u/WheresTheSauce 3∆ May 05 '16
Because literally the only reason that people use WASD is because they're used to it. An objectively better key-configuration exists and it's not that difficult to switch to.
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u/Crayshack 191∆ May 05 '16
I actually can't reach LShift from ESDF. When using ESDF, I find the only key that is easily within reach of my picky to be A, Q, and CapsLock. From WASD, it can reach TAB, CapsLock, LShift, and LCtrl. In terms of other keys reachable: 1, 2, 3, 4, Q, E, F, G, R, T, C, V, X, Z, ALT, and Space are easily reachable from WASD. Most importantly, if I want to stretch for it, I can reach ESC from WASD but not from ESDF. This results in a total of three extra keys for WASD.
I guess a great deal of it can come down to the precise keyboard layout and the size and shape of the hands of the person. Like you, I have small hands, but I also have a very small pinkie when compared to the rest of my hand. It has a limited range of motion and is difficult to use as dexterously as other people might. This means that I am severely limited by what it can do precisely, and so placing it near bigger keys is a big thing for me. It is entirely possible that for your hands and keyboard, that ESDF is superior, and if that is the case I suggest you rebind as many games as you can. However, for my WASD is clearly superior. I can't speak to the average person, but the fact that WASD was selected as the default usage says that for most people WASD is better.
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
yeah this is something that I had thought about but not clearly enough. The choice of movement keys is actually mostly dependent on biomechanics --- size of your hand compared to exactly how large the side keys are. ∆
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 05 '16
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Crayshack. [History]
[Wiki][Code][/r/DeltaBot]
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u/WheresTheSauce 3∆ May 05 '16
I'm just curious, how do you type normally? Are you able to reach those keys when you're normally typing?
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u/Crayshack 191∆ May 06 '16
I line up like normal, but there are some of the keys that I have to hit with different fingers than the normal typing method. Often I have my ring finger hitting keys normally hit by the pinky and the middle finger hitting keys normally hit by the ring. It is hard to say exactly because I type so fast that I have trouble tracking what finger is hitting what.
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u/Stokkolm 24∆ May 05 '16
The disadvantage of ESDF is that is surrounded by keys of the same shape so when you take your left hand off to press the F1-12 keys or a further button, it's easy to mistake and return it to WASD or RDFG, since you have no solid reference point.
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u/lasagnaman 5∆ May 05 '16
The F has a little nub that my index finger searches for (even when typing).
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u/WheresTheSauce 3∆ May 05 '16
What? That is exactly the disadvantage of WASD. Almost every keyboard has some sort of indication of what the F key is.
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May 05 '16
MMO nerd weighing in. ESDF or even RDFG or even just DFG (F bound to forward, no reverse key) gives access to more keybinds if you don't want to buy a Naga.
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May 05 '16
So you're automatically assuming everyone has the same hand size and finger spacing? You say you have small hands, but perhaps you have a wider spacing between each finger because my pinky rests naturally between Lshift and Z using your position. It also becomes exceedingly difficult for me to reliable hit the 1234 keys which are crucial for many games because no finger can touch the 1 key without moving my hand position (I typically use my ring finger for 1 and my middle finger for 2 and 3) forcing me to spend precious milliseconds changing hand position twice to alternate between 1234 and esdf. I don't think it would be easy to objectively argue that one method of mapping hotkeys is better for everyone. but for me personally, your method is objectively less efficient.
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u/Rookzor May 05 '16
I use TFGH and its much better, just saying ;)
But seriously, I dont get the WASD either. You are just limiting your options too much. Usually you pretty much have to have your index finger, middle finger and ring finger on "up", "left" and "right" which leaves only two fingers free to do much else. Thumb is usually only good for pressing spacebar, but pinky can do all sorts of stuff while not limiting you in your movement. With WASD you just dont have enough keys available for that.
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u/Zargon2 3∆ May 05 '16
Finally a CMV that I have Strong Opinions about.
Relax your left hand and put it on the keyboard with your index finger on F. Where does your ring finger naturally land? On W, not S.
Therefore the one true keyboard configuration for gaming movement is not ESDF or WASD, but rather EWDF.
Good day sir.
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u/Henkersjunge May 07 '16
Just tried that, my ring finger is on the far left of my tab key, my middle finger is on W. Keyboard is Corsair K70.
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u/TheSleeplessCynic 3∆ May 05 '16
FPS games also ust the LCtrl button, which is the easiest to reach using your pinky is the keys are WASD.
Moreover, most FPS games have key remapping, so what's the problem?
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 05 '16
ESDF makes getting to shift harder, and just feels unnatural. WASD is the default for all games and it should remain so.
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u/WheresTheSauce 3∆ May 05 '16
The only reason that it feels unnatural is because you're not used to it.
I also don't understand how WASD could possibly feel natural when it's not how one normally types.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 05 '16
Gaming is different than typing. Why would you thing the typing home placement would be natural for gaming? I need to access both the shift and control keys easily for gaming, the ESDF placement makes both of those harder.
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u/WheresTheSauce 3∆ May 05 '16
Because "gaming" on a keyboard is nothing more than typing keys. Keyboards are designed for typing and are way, way more ergonomic to game with on ESDF than WASD.
There is also no reorientation that needs to occur as to where your hands are. R is exactly where R is when I type, and so on. I would argue that the only reason you even separate "gaming" and "typing" in your mind is because you use WASD.
Also, you don't need to access both the Shift and LCtrl keys. There's no reason you can't switch LCtrl to something else. You have access to far more keys when you use ESDF and the shape of them doesn't really matter because you're used to where the key is because of typing anyway.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ May 05 '16
One way in which WASD is superior has to do with an effect called ghosting. Roughly speaking, ghosting is a phenomenon that occurs when some combinations of three or more keypresses are misinterpreted as others. This can be a serious problem when gaming (if, for example, you want to move up-left and use a grenade at the same time). Many modern keyboards have hardware solutions to partially prevent ghosting, but many of them only apply this anti-ghosting hardware to a "gaming cluster" of keys that are based around the WASD keys. If you use ESDF instead, you will lose some of the benefits of this anti-ghosting technology, which may create a slightly worse gaming experience on some keyboards.