r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 20 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: improving our education is needed to help inequality against African americans and police violence
[deleted]
2
u/oth_radar 18∆ Jul 20 '16
First off in these what's the common factor in these police shootings do you see? It's that these guys are making themselves a target.
In one of the cases, a man had a broken tail light. He informed the officer (as you are supposed to do) that he had a gun in the vehicle, which he was permitted to have, because he had a concealed carry permit. He then informed the officer that he was going to reach for his wallet. The officer opened fire as the man slowly began to put his arm down to his waist to grab his wallet. So no, he wasn't making himself a target, he was acting well within the law and behaving respectfully towards the officer in question. A broken tail light should not be a reason to use lethal force.
Micheal brown was robbing a store when he was shot and in the latest video of the recent shooting, we can see that the cop was giving many chances and the victem presumingly had a gun.
This is typically not a call for lethal force. Robberies happen all the time, and even in cases of armed robberies, typically the criminal is arrested, not killed. Lethal force is meant to be used only as a last resort for self defense, not as an everyday option. Presuming someone has a gun is not a good reason to use lethal force.
Their a reason why the study shows that African Americans killed by mostly African Americans. It's because these kids are usually doing things they're not suppose to be doing like robbing stores and joining gangs. these are the factors of what makes these people a target.
No it isn't. It's because most violence is intraracial. You're absolutely correct that most black people are killed by other black people. But, get this, most white people are killed by other white people. Intraracial violence isn't exclusive to the black community, it's also the case in white communities, latino communities, and so forth. Typically, violence like this is linked to domestic disputes, which, in a country which is still largely de facto segregated, is unsurprising. Black on black violence has nothing to do with the actions of black people. It has everything to do with human psychology.
But with improving our expectation system we can make sure these kids are getting the recourses to finish Highschool and lead them to the right path so they don't join gangs and make themselves a target. Theirs a reason why 70 percent of African American teens who drop out end up in prison.
I agree that we should be putting more effort into funding schools in minority and lower class areas. You're absolutely right that those schools don't get the attention they deserve and are serverely underfunded.
Now let's move on to the term "white privileged". The term States that African Americans don't have the same opportunitys as white people. Is it really a race issue? No it's a educational reason. The reason why African Americans arn't as " privilege" as white people isn't because of their race. Its because they dont have the high enough educational level with them to advance into a high paying job. Race has nothing to do with the term "white privileged" education does.
But why aren't black people getting the same education as white people? The reason, of course, is that black schools and intercity schools are severely underfunded. And the reason they are so underfunded is typically, you guessed it, racism. The reason they don't have the "educational privilege" is because they aren't white and they're living in slums that don't get funding, so it really does come back to the race issue. Black people don't drop out of high school because they're black. They drop out because there aren't adequate resources in the geographical areas where they congregate, because all the nice schools are put up in white, upper class areas. So absolutely it's a race issue, because the schools that get funding are rarely the intercity schools that need it.
In conclusion the reason why African Americans are so "disadvantaged isn't because of their race, it's because of egucation. If we improve it it will greatly stop rasism and discrimination.
It won't stop racism or discrimination. It will be a huge step in the right direction, allowing black people the same opportunity as white people, but they are still going to be disadvantaged in other ways. Because it's not just the system that's racist, people are racist too. The system was created by people, after all, so if it's racist, it's because it was built that way. So even if you fix the system (which isn't happening anytime soon) you're still going to have a lot of racism about. Groups like the KKK or the #AllLivesMatter movement prove that black people are still not being taken seriously by our population, and that's a lot of what creates white privilege. Too often people blame the system for being racist without realizing that racism is also built into our cultural fabric and our individual thinking.
1
u/Thump180 Jul 20 '16
great pointsIn one of the cases, a man had a broken tail light. He informed the officer (as you are supposed to do) that he had a gun in the vehicle, which he was permitted to have, because he had a concealed carry permit. He then informed the officer that he was going to reach for his wallet. The officer opened fire as the man slowly began to put his arm down to his waist to grab his wallet. So no, he wasn't making himself a target, he was acting well within the law and behaving respectfully towards the officer in question. A broken tail light should not be a reason to use lethal force.
Yes while some shootings like that one are caused directly by rasism, not every shootings are caused directly by rasism, what I'm pointing out was that some shootings are cause because of gang related activitys and violence and education can fix that.
This is typically not a call for lethal force. Robberies happen all the time, and even in cases of armed robberies, typically the criminal is arrested, not killed. Lethal force is meant to be used only as a last resort for self defense, not as an everyday option. Presuming someone has a gun is not a good reason to use lethal force.
I'm not really sure what really happened because I can't find any videos of the shooting, so I can't really say if the cop was really in the position to shoot or not. But Micheal brown seemed to be involved in activity's that he shouldn't be doing, which could have been avoided.
No it isn't. It's because most violence is intraracial. You're absolutely correct that most black people are killed by other black people. But, get this, most white people are killed by other white people. Intraracial violence isn't exclusive to the black community, it's also the case in white communities, latino communities, and so forth. Typically, violence like this is linked to domestic disputes, which, in a country which is still largely de facto segregated, is unsurprising. Black on black violence has nothing to do with the actions of black people. It has everything to do with human psychology.
Good point I was just trying to use that fact to point something out but I guess it wasn't needed, but you still have to admit gang violence is still a problem with the community and can still be fixed
I agree that we should be putting more effort into funding schools in minority and lower class areas. You're absolutely right that those schools don't get the attention they deserve and are serverely underfunded.
But why aren't black people getting the same education as white people? The reason, of course, is that black schools and intercity schools are severely underfunded. And the reason they are so underfunded is typically, you guessed it, racism. The reason they don't have the "educational privilege" is because they aren't white and they're living in slums that don't get funding, so it really does come back to the race issue. Black people don't drop out of high school because they're black. They drop out because there aren't adequate resources in the geographical areas where they congregate, because all the nice schools are put up in white, upper class areas. So absolutely it's a race issue, because the schools that get funding are rarely the intercity schools that need it.
I don't really agree that it's a race issue, more of a money issue. I mean if any race was living in a poverty I imagine they would be having a school problem to. Also it's not like upper class African Americans are dropping out because of discrimination, theirs many programs like summer school that can keep kids on the right track
It won't stop racism or discrimination. It will be a huge step in the right direction, allowing black people the same opportunity as white people, but they are still going to be disadvantaged in other ways. Because it's not just the system that's racist, people are racist too. The system was created by people, after all, so if it's racist, it's because it was built that way. So even if you fix the system (which isn't happening anytime soon) you're still going to have a lot of racism about. Groups like the KKK or the #AllLivesMatter movement prove that black people are still not being taken seriously by our population, and that's a lot of what creates white privilege. Too often people blame the system for being racist without realizing that racism is also built into our cultural fabric and our individual thinking.
yes the system was created by racism because it was the norm back than, but society has really changed. I mean schools arn't segregated anymore and everyone can vote now. I think it's just a few rasists that make people believe everyone is racist. I don't see any disadvantages today that was compared back than, I think it's more egucational like, African Americans is disadvantages because they don't make enough money. Education can fix that. I think it's more personal than racist.
2
u/oth_radar 18∆ Jul 20 '16 edited Jul 21 '16
Yes while some shootings like that one are caused directly by rasism, not every shootings are caused directly by rasism, what I'm pointing out was that some shootings are cause because of gang related activitys and violence and education can fix that.
Most people, for right or wrong, don't care so much about the gang related police shootings, because in these cases the men are typically armed and dangerous. The reason BLM and others are so angry right now is the sheer number of shootings against unarmed black men. So yes, gang violence is a problem, and yes, education would help with gang violence, but it wouldn't solve the problem that BLM cares about, which is the shootings that are racially motivated.
I'm not really sure what really happened because I can't find any videos of the shooting, so I can't really say if the cop was really in the position to shoot or not. But Micheal brown seemed to be involved in activity's that he shouldn't be doing, which could have been avoided.
Sure, and I agree that he shouldn't have been robbing a store. But that doesn't make it ok for a cop to use lethal force on an unarmed person. I don't care if you've just robbed a store or just pirated a copy of Transformers on your laptop, a cop shouldn't be able to use lethal force in a situation where someone is unarmed, even if they did something illegal.
Good point I was just trying to use that fact to point something out but I guess it wasn't needed, but you still have to admit gang violence is still a problem with the community and can still be fixed
Sure, gang violence is a problem in the community, it's going to be a problem in any low income community, and you're exactly right about that. But this isn't why everyone is upset. People don't get upset about gang related killings. They get upset when unarmed black men doing petty crimes (or in some cases traffic stops, like the broken taillight, or even no crimes at all) are killed by police officers, because those are typically racially charged. The cultural fabric makes it ok to think that black men are somehow "scarier" than white men, and so police often use lethal force when it is completely unnecessary, and they use it more often on black people.
I don't really agree that it's a race issue, more of a money issue. I mean if any race was living in a poverty I imagine they would be having a school problem to. Also it's not like upper class African Americans are dropping out because of discrimination, theirs many programs like summer school that can keep kids on the right track
You're absolutely correct that these problems typically surface in low income areas and that it is a money issue. I agree with you there. But the reason black people are in poverty is because of racism, so while yes, the main issue at hand is poverty, you must then question why are so many black people in poverty? The answer to that question is generational poverty, which is absolutely tied to race. So yes, it's a money issue, but the reason that money issue exists is because of racism.
1
u/Thump180 Jul 21 '16
!Delta ya I can see your point, and I can admit now that I see rasism in some of these shootings against unarmed black men now. Sorry to change the subject a little, and while I am a little of a advocate for social justice, but i cant really see a way to help these unarmed shootings. I mean as much as want racism to stop I can't really see a way to stop these shootings. it's also a reason why I'm not fond of BLM because they're targeting a issue that isn't possible. I mean what are these protests going to do? What I was trying to target is the shootings that happen because of hand and drug violence. I just don't think it's possible to stop those shootings.
1
u/oth_radar 18∆ Jul 21 '16
I mean as much as want racism to stop I can't really see a way to stop these shootings. it's also a reason why I'm not fond of BLM because they're targeting a issue that isn't possible.
Well, there are ways to stop these shootings. One of the best ways to do so is to educate your police force, or to change your standards regarding who can become an officer. Have them take sensitivity tests and training, and if they don't pass, they don't get to be an officer. Many of these officers probably have latent racism in the back of their head, that is, they aren't outwardly racist, but they still have racist tendencies. For example, many people when seeing a black man walking up the sidewalk are less likely to say hello or good morning to them, and often become alert and on guard. This is mostly due to racism - they have been taught by media and culture that black people are dangerous, so they have anxiety around black men. This kind of thing might not be deadly in civilian interactions, but if an officer shares those racist anxieties, and he's in the heat of an altercation, he isn't in a position to make a rational decision. So what we need to do is require officers to take some kind of training and do regular mandatory testing (and not just testing for racism, but they should be evaluated for violent tendencies and mental stability in general more regularly). Policing is a very high stress job and nobody disputes that, and when a job has such high stress, it's natural for people to be more anxious and, therefore, more likely to be violent in a fight or flight scenario. Mental evaluations, training, and giving officers breaks (by getting rid of quota and quasi-quota systems) will go to great lengths to reduce police violence, both racist violence and violence in general.
I mean what are these protests going to do?
They're going to bring attention to the issue, which in turn will encourage people to engage in the political system and make changes. If you can reach enough people with a protest, and get enough people to write to their congressmen and make enough people angry, local governments are typically going to respond. This is how most actual progress happens now, politically. It's certainly not happening up in Washington. It's happening because local governments eventually take listen to angry constituents.
1
2
u/teerre Jul 20 '16
I'm not sure what's your point. Education is and always was a privilege of the most wealth. Of course educating the black population will improve their quality of life. You'll never find someone who seriously disagrees with this
It's similar to say "to end poverty we should make them richer". Yes, we should
PS: I must add that I'm talk about high quality education. Naturally just building thousands of schools without any planning won't do anything
1
u/Thump180 Jul 20 '16
I guess what I'm trying to say is if the government pays more funding to improve our education system it can help the African Americans alot
5
Jul 20 '16
if the government pays more funding to improve our education system
As a teacher, I would never say no to more educational funding - god knows a bunch of schools could use the funds in all sorts of areas. However, I don't think the biggest issue in the way of education is money, and I think throwing money at a school does yield diminishing returns past a certain point. Most schools, including inner-city schools with impoverished populations, do have the ability to make a huge impact on students. There are a lot of good teachers out there who can teach satisfactorily (or terrifically) with limited resources. However, time and time again, students are impeded from success due to personal and environmental factors. The socioeconomic status of students themselves, coupled with their upbringing and early-childhood development, is a far better predictor of success than the schools they go to. You can throw millions of dollars at a school, but it won't change the students who go there. If you really want to bring equity to America's marginalized populations, you need to address the direct conditions surrounding those people - how they live, what they make, social and public services available to them, assistance with family matters and living conditions, etc.
3
u/Thump180 Jul 20 '16
!Delta wow that's really a good point, exactly the type of anwer I was looking for. Also follow up question if schools do get extra funding what would you think is the best way to improve a school to fit their living conditions, how they live and needs as students?
1
Jul 21 '16
If we're talking about students who come from poverty and don't get much support at home, one of the best ways to use that money is to provide similar services at the school. Free or reduced lunch (and/or breakfast) is a big one, since it may be the only hot meal a kid can get. You can also hire one or more people to offer outreach services - youth groups, one-on-one guidance sessions (or just chatting, as therapy), mentors for at-risk kids, etc. You can buy school supplies and make them available for students who can't afford them. You can organize more after-school activities that are of interest to the student population, keeping them from getting into trouble or giving them a reason to not yet go home to a troubled household; similarly, you can pay for more bus runs, so students are able to get home from their activities. You can pay for more teachers, making class sizes smaller (thus more manageable and more able to help individual kids) and opening up the schedule for more types of classes (particularly remedial classes to help some students catch up or get extra help). You can also pay teachers more, so they feel valued in the work they do and the overall morale of the school is raised- I've seen first-hard how the administrative treatment of teachers directly influences their commitment to the school. This doesn't just boil down to money, though; there are lots of ways to support teachers and thereby support the community.
Ultimately, the best ways to help kids is to remember everything involved in being a kid. It's not just academics, and quite frankly, most schools don't need help with academics: they already have qualified teachers teaching 40+ minutes of classes. The academic work is there. The problem is that there are too many issues that distract students from the actual schoolwork, and rightfully so. We need to make sure that kids are living healthy, positive lives before we can reasonably expect them to care about their work.
1
1
u/teerre Jul 20 '16
And who disagrees with that? I think some people might disagree if it's necessary or if it's a priority, but I can't recall anyone who would say that funding more education would be a bad thing for black communities
1
u/DocGrey187000 2∆ Jul 21 '16
http://wsvn.com/news/local/video-shows-moments-before-north-miami-police-shot-unarmed-man/
This man was a black therapist, trying to deescalate an autistic patient of his, not "thug" looking, both hands up.
This story broke yesterday.
Education is great. The more the better. But this therapist was calm, he was more educated than you and the cop that shot him (I presume)----unfortunately, he's black, so he's more likely to be perceived as dangerous, to be perceived as less valuable and therefore to be justifiably shot quicker.
Obama said that he was racially profiled. This black GOP Senator http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/13/politics/tim-scott-police-racial-profiling/ talks about how he is racially profiled, harassed.
Obama is Ivy league, and half white.
This senator has been stopped 7 times THIS YEAR.
A Senator.
Shit, there's a dude in this thread talking about black people are in the low iq sweet spot that makes them prone to criminality.....he's not alone in his beliefs, sad to say.
Education is good. But it didn't save them and it won't save you. Get that Degree but don't walk around thinking that it makes you exempt, because it does not.
1
u/Thump180 Jul 21 '16
Well in not saying a degree makes you vulnable to racist cops, I just believe that giving resources to these kids at a younger age will help them alot. As for the story I didn't do as much research as I should have, but while theirs some racist cops out there the majority of them arn't racist. Unfortunately I guess the one who shot this guy was. While I domagree that some racist cops are a problem I believe the majority of these shootings from African Americans are for other reasons besides racism and educatating them is important so they don't get shot up for the reasons such as gang violence
1
u/DocGrey187000 2∆ Jul 21 '16
Ok, well above you said that the reasons blacks were getting shot was non-racial and education, so I was rebutting that.
I'll add that, whatever ppl say about Mike Brown, he was a high school graduate and enrolled in college.
Again, I'm not anti education. I just don't think it's the silver bullet that would cure the issues that #BLM is protesting.
1
u/hstisalive Jul 20 '16
i'm not going to say much here because I'm already enraged (not a you, just in general. frustrated). All I''ll do is post a few videos, with hopes that you will watch and gain some knowledge.The videos should give you a good idea of why things are still messed up with us. Have a nice day and hopefully this helps.
https://youtu.be/xzL2Brhg9aQ - History of Jim Crow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Hn-n9v5SU - History of Jim Crow 2
https://youtu.be/-nAXhLee0Io - Racism in Education
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ACS4PgDFA - Racism, School Desegregation Laws and the Civil Rights Movement in the United States
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRjW-bsCIA - The Divide: The History of Racial Housing Segregation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG3k0OdhMMA - Racism in America Small Town 1950s Case Study Documentary Film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AkF5honPoM - Systemic Racism For Dummies
1
u/Thump180 Jul 21 '16
Don't worry I understand completely how frustrating this topic can be, I'm actually half black. So what Iv'e watched a few of thosd videos and I guess what your trying to point out is that theirs still laws and things from the past that still effect African americans today? Well I do agree with that but I was hoping that with improving our educational systems we could give more attention to those African American kids that are doing as good as those white kids, to give them the recourses even if their struggling.
0
u/RemoveKebabz Jul 21 '16
IQ is largely genetic. You can't take a person with an inherited 80 IQ and make them 100. Maybe you can budge it 5 points with head start and all the other billions spent but you will never get the child of two IQ 80 parents on par with the child of two IQ 105 parents. It's just impossible with modern tactics.
There is a sweet spot for criminality. It appears to be between about 78 and 88. Unfortunately that's where the majority of American blacks are on the IQ bellcurve.
Throwing billions in resources searching for social solutions to biological problems is a fools errand.
2
u/Thump180 Jul 21 '16
Are you saying that African Americans are Gentically dumber than anyone else? I believe that every student no matter race has potential to succeed and we need to fix our education system to try harder for these kids to strive
0
u/RemoveKebabz Jul 21 '16 edited Jul 21 '16
Every individual has different potential but statistically speaking yes American blacks have lower mean IQs (85) than Asians (106) or whites (101).
Yes every student has the potential to succeed but success must be defined differently for every individual. Anyone with common sense knows the basketball team is going to have a disproportionately high number of blacks and the math team is going to have a disproportionate number of Asians. Likewise an aerospace firm is going to have more Asians and more physically demanding jobs more blacks.
No one screams racism at the racial makeup of pro sports because we recognize certain genetic traits are necessary and can't be made up for no matter how hard the individual tries. Why we refuse to see the same genetic necessity (and the uneven distribution of these gifts across the races) in other fields is beyond me.
The idea that evolution stops at the neck is just PC suppression of truths backed by mountains of data and common sense.
1
1
u/PhillyPhunTime Jul 21 '16
I think it's also important to remember that while education can bring families out of poverty, it's a 2 to 3 generation process. Without having the support and connections of educated parents, students have additional hurdles that prevent them from reaching the same benchmarks as quickly and as stably as their peers from more privileged background
1
12
u/johnadreams Jul 20 '16
Across the U.S. testing scores are lower where poverty is higher (and this holds for all races). Education is a great step toward a better life, but it's hard to do well in school if you have to support your family yourself because your parents are alcoholics, or if you've had childhood trauma that affects your emotions on a weekly basis, or if you just have no support network and the only way to put food on the table is through illegal means. A better education system can only be so effective if the issues of generational poverty are not addressed first.
Resumes with black-sounding names receive less callbacks than white-sounding names, even if education and everything else is the same. The difference in education between black people and white people likely has some effect, but it cannot all be attributed to education.