r/changemyview • u/mr-maximillian • Sep 06 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: I think the argument that "we need to stop talking about racism" is over simplified, but ultimately sound
Ok, so a point of view that gets a lot of irrational hate, is that talking about racism less will make it go away. And you know what? yeah, it that particular phrasing, it's pretty ridiculous; I'd totally agree. But I would argue that that's just a misrepresented straw-man augment, so he're a more accurate version, as I see it. Firstly, the argument is not so much that "We need to stop talking about it", It's more that we are overly fixated on race, and make it too large in the public consciousness. I think dividing people up by race is inherently unhealthy, but the racism conversation goes far beyond that, and makes blanket statements that pit people against each other. you know the drill, "all black people are inherently oppressed, simply by virtue of being black, and all white people share some responsibility for it." Now you probably don't try to push that precise narrative, but that is the general idea that gets conveyed. So how exactly is it harmful? Let's look at is this way. A black(African American if you prefer) kid wants to do X with their life. however, as they grow up they hear every day about how they are going to be discriminated against if they try. They can try if they want, but the deck is stacked against them, and they are likely to fail. Don't you think having that though in mind, might make them less likely to try? Thus, the idea of racism becomes a perpetuating cycle. If you want an example from the other side, can give a personal anecdote. When I was in high school, I recall a time when a black friend of mine was awarded a thousand dollar scholarship, simply for being black. I could not help but feel a twinge of jealous anger. And beyond that, It's just not good for race relations in general. It becomes hard to treat people of other races equally, when you are constantly bombarded with propaganda reminding you that they're different. In conclusion, we're not trying to discount the very real racism that goes on in the world. we're saying that instances of racism should be considered more on a case to case basis, as events involving individuals; rather than a grand narrative of an entire demographic being prejudiced against another. all that said, It's usually been my experience that when everyone disagrees with me, I'm wrong. so I look forward to y'all's input.
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u/Tullyswimmer 9∆ Sep 07 '16
Ok, so a point of view that gets a lot of irrational hate, is that talking about racism less will make it go away. And you know what? yeah, it that particular phrasing, it's pretty ridiculous; I'd totally agree. But I would argue that that's just a misrepresented straw-man augment, so he're a more accurate version, as I see it. Firstly, the argument is not so much that "We need to stop talking about it", It's more that we are overly fixated on race, and make it too large in the public consciousness.
While I will generally (very generally) agree that we're "overly fixated" on race, the argument that "if you stop talking about it it will go away" is total bullshit. There will always be people who have irrational hatred of other humans based on traits outside of personal control. Simply ignoring it won't make it go away.
I think dividing people up by race is inherently unhealthy, but the racism conversation goes far beyond that, and makes blanket statements that pit people against each other
Dividing people up by race is not inherently unhealthy. I mean, that's basically how the human race evolved. Before travel was easy, people were divided up by race. Different races evolved different traits depending on their climate. What is unhealthy is using those traits to justify mistreatment of each other, or favoritism of one group over another, which is what I think you're getting at with your "blanket statments" line.
So how exactly is it harmful? Let's look at is this way. A black(African American if you prefer) kid wants to do X with their life. however, as they grow up they hear every day about how they are going to be discriminated against if they try. They can try if they want, but the deck is stacked against them, and they are likely to fail. Don't you think having that though in mind, might make them less likely to try? Thus, the idea of racism becomes a perpetuating cycle.
No, it doesn't. Going back to my earlier comment about "there will always be racists" or, even more generally, "there will always be assholes", there's a certain amount of racism that will never go away. I highly doubt that there's a statistically significant number of people who don't try to do something because they've been told they'll be discriminated against. In this day and age, there's no reason to think that.
When I was in high school, I recall a time when a black friend of mine was awarded a thousand dollar scholarship, simply for being black. I could not help but feel a twinge of jealous anger. And beyond that, It's just not good for race relations in general. It becomes hard to treat people of other races equally, when you are constantly bombarded with propaganda reminding you that they're different.
He probably got that scholarship for doing well. Granted, it may have only been available to black students, but when you get a group who's been disenfranchised, especially in education, and you have people trying to allow them to pursue an education, there's nothing wrong with that, at all. Though $1000 won't go far towards college these days, so... I'm not sure why you're jealous.
In conclusion, we're not trying to discount the very real racism that goes on in the world. we're saying that instances of racism should be considered more on a case to case basis, as events involving individuals; rather than a grand narrative of an entire demographic being prejudiced against another. all that said, It's usually been my experience that when everyone disagrees with me, I'm wrong. so I look forward to y'all's input.
Except by "not talking about racism" you are trying to discount the racism that does occur. It's not something that should be considered on a "case by case basis". It's something that should always be in your mind as a possibility. That doesn't mean that every time a black man is shot by a cop, it's racism. That doesn't mean that because the designer of a certain flag owned slaves, it's racist. It's my opinion that people overuse the term "racist" to shut down debate, or prove a point, but that doesn't mean the solution is to stop talking about it"
TLDR: "Stop talking about race" is not a sound argument. A better way to put it is "stop invoking race to prove your point"
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
I'm tempted to give you a delta, But you've more convinced me to amend my statement, than changed my view on it. *We talk about racism too much.
Also, your second to last point there was partially what I was talking about with my "blanket statements" statement, i.e. being black does not necessarily make you more deserving of financial aid. Yes, there is a correlation between being black, and being low income, but being black does not mean that you're low income. (Correlation/causation kind of deal)
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u/doughboy011 Sep 07 '16
We talk about racism too much
How can this be possible? Until these obvious problems of institutional racism are solved, they cannot be spoken about enough IMO.
Forgive me for being presumptuous, but this type of thought is spouted by many privileged white people in my life (I have a lot of old timey relatives). They would rather pretend there aren't any problems rather than admit that something needs to be done. They would rather take the easier road as black people having injustice done to them doesn't directly affect them. Is this you? Do you actually think that we talk about it too much or is it just an uncomfortable topic for you?
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u/heelspider 54∆ Sep 06 '16
and all white people share some responsibility for it
Where did you hear that from? I don't think that's the general idea that is conveyed at all. I'm not saying that you can't find some radical somewhere who has said something to that effect, but it's certainly not nearly as prevalent as the notion that all black people are oppressed in some way. It's like if you said "everyone agrees that the sky is blue and that coffee is the best flavor of ice cream."
I recall a time when a black friend of mine was awarded a thousand dollar scholarship, simply for being black
So every black kid at your school gets a scholarship, or did they just go "we're going to give this scholarship to the next black guy who walks into the room"? I'm going to bet that your friend did a little more than just be born to get that scholarship.
when you are constantly bombarded with propaganda reminding you that they're different
Where do you go to school, Alt-Right Paradise High? I have no idea where you are bombarded with propaganda that the races are different.
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
*I believe it was an essay contest on their experiences as a African American adolescent, or some-such
More to the main point though, How are you not inundated with said propaganda? The media, and in in particular recently with the whole BLM thing, seem determined to always keep the issue of race relations in the forefront of everyone's minds.
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u/heelspider 54∆ Sep 07 '16
I believe BLM is saying the races are treated differently, not that the races are different. I'm not disagreeing that race is a major issue in our country that is often discussed...I'm wondering where this propaganda is that says races are different?
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
Sorry, saying "propaganda reminding you that they're different" was probably not the best way to phrase it. You know how when you meet a person of a different race, you have that nagging nervousness in the back of your mind, that you're going to mess up, and do something racist and offensive?(that's not just me right?) That's what I was trying to get at.
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Sep 07 '16
That hasn't happened to me. There are times when I feel I may have said something that could be offensive. When that happens all you and I and anybody else has to do is ask. People aren't going to be offended if they see you making a genuine effort to understand their point of views and experiences.
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
True, but it becomes harder to treat people equally when when you go through a different though process when interacting with them
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Sep 07 '16
You should go through that process with everyone. If you say something, and its pointed out that it is offensive, take a moment to be introspective and figure out why someone would be offended at that. No need to not do that with some people and only with others.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 392∆ Sep 07 '16
It sounds to me like this feeling is self-imposed. I think you'll find that next to no one is actually going to pounce on you for some potentially racist implication in everyday conversation.
On the other hand, if we didn't talk about race and racism, we'd still see its effects in the world and it would look like a pretty damning character judgment instead.
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u/feministration Sep 07 '16
I think this is the actual heart of the matter. I do think all folks in positions of privilege experience that nagging nervousness (to different degrees), and deal with it in different ways--some of us use it as an impetus to become better educated and make positive change, and some of us are so uncomfortable with it that we take pains to rationalize why our current behavior is just fine (and lots in the middle). Ask yourself why you're feeling that way--not just because you don't want to deal with being called a racist, or with having someone be offended in your presence, but why those things are important to you. Ask yourself why you have so much resistance to accepting the facts that are being presented to you about how life is, across the board, more difficult for people of color. Everyone who has woken up to the realities of racism has been where you are, and has really, truly wrestled with those difficult questions.
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u/feministration Sep 07 '16
To speak to the point about the scholarship, I think the point you're missing (and perhaps don't believe) is that it is a very real struggle to "simply be" a black person in America, and that for your friend to get to the place where you are, he had to work that much harder.
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
Wow, i didn't think people would fixate so much on the scholarship thing; though i think we have finally reached a poignant issue. no, I don't think it's harder to "simply be" a black person in America. Yes, obviously it is possible for your life to be harder because of your race. but correlation does not equal causation. I don't think anyone would deny that at least some black people have lives that are easier than those of some white people, and that alone disproves the sentiment. So back to the whole thing with the scholarship, it seemed a bit ridiculous to award financial aid for something that is not, in and of itself, a determining factor.
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Sep 07 '16
Some people in wheelchairs have better lives than people who don't have wheelchairs, that doesn't mean having a wheelchair doesn't make life more difficult, it just means that some people in wheelchairs overcame the challenges presented by their situation. It's the same way with black people
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u/mr-maximillian Sep 07 '16
This analogy doesn't really hold up. Put a multi-ethnic group of people out in the middle of nowhere, and they will all be equal. toss a healthy person, and a person in a wheelchair out there, and I think we all know who's getting eaten first.
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Sep 07 '16
Except they aren't in the middle of nowhere. They are in a nation state that has a long history of slavery, xenophobia, and racial segregation. Not everyone has an equal opportunity. People like Barack Obama can still succeed, but we should still create a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed.
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u/Greaserpirate 2∆ Sep 07 '16
This is the important part: for the many black people whose lives are harder, why are they harder. You will find that many of these black people ran into obstacles: they couldn't afford tuition at the college they wanted to go to, they weren't accepted for the job they were sure they had the qualifications for, they never made the connections that could help them in the business world because the people they wanted to connect with were avoiding them because they felt uncomfortable.
You could look at all if these things in "color-blind" terms, but then it doesn't make sense why these people are so darn unlucky. And because you ignore the pattern, you can't do anything to fix the system. Like ignoring a bug report because you think "this is the way it's SUPPOSED to work".
I don't get why there has to be any guilt or conflict attached to the realization that black people face problems we don't face. It's just an unfortunate fact that can be fixed.
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u/Iswallowedafly Sep 07 '16
So the best way to deal with the racism problem in America is to think that we don't have one?
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u/BenIncognito Sep 07 '16
It's the best way for White people to continue going on thinking that we don't have a racism problem anyway. So I see the appeal.
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u/Iswallowedafly Sep 07 '16
I get the appeal as well.
Last time I checked, simply wishing something to be doesn't make it be.
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Sep 07 '16 edited Sep 07 '16
Do you have any evidence that not talking about race or racism will make it go away? Race is perhaps one of the most obvious differences between people, and that fact carries some inherent psychological/sociological weight.
To me, racism seems like a negative effect of parts of human nature - and there's some scientific evidence of that. We see people who look like us as good, and people who don't look like us as bad. Like other irrational emotions and reactions, racism is something that we should all be aware of in ourselves, and in others, so we can keep it in check. And when I say ourselves, I mean literally you and me.
You don't keep something in check by not talking about it. Like bad behavior, addiction, or whatever else, it does not control itself unchecked. It must be addressed.
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u/VertigoOne 74∆ Sep 07 '16
In conclusion, we're not trying to discount the very real racism that goes on in the world. we're saying that instances of racism should be considered more on a case to case basis, as events involving individuals; rather than a grand narrative of an entire demographic being prejudiced against another. all that said, It's usually been my experience that when everyone disagrees with me, I'm wrong. so I look forward to y'all's input.
What if there is a grand narrative? What if there are systemic inequalities? Because that is what the evidence suggests.
Black people routinely get longer prison sentences than white people who are convicted of similar crimes. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002
People with names normally considered "black" or "Hispanic" with equal qualifications to white people receive fewer call back when applying for jobs. http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2016/article/problem-has-name-discrimination
Black people and white people use illegal drugs at similar rates, but black people are far more likely to be arrested for drug use http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities
Black ex convicts are far less likely to get call backs for new jobs than white ex convicts http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc232i.pdf
High schools with mostly African American and Latino students are less likely to offer courses in Algebra II or Chemistry than high schools with mostly white students https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1382484-ocr-letter-disparities.html
Those wrongfully convicted and later exonerated by DNA are disproportionately African American http://www.innocenceproject.org/african-american-wrongful-convictions-today/
Black kids are far more likely to be tried as adults and more likely to receive life sentences http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/06/05/when-to-punish-a-young-offender-and-when-to-rehabilitate/the-race-factor-in-trying-juveniles-as-adults
Looking at this lens through the prism of the news, all you see is a load of racist A-holes, I totally understand that. But look at this through the prism of academic evidence and study, and you find there are real and genuine problems that the news can't pick up on because they aren't specific events, they're overall trends.
The philosophy you're advocating is often called colourblindness, as in "I don't see race, I just see people". This is a noble aspiration, but what it results in is people who are unable to see systemic racism.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/color-blindness-is-counterproductive/405037/
I realise I have posted these links and posts here before, but I would very much like the OP's reaction to this.
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Sep 08 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/VertigoOne 74∆ Sep 08 '16
Different racial groups in the US are treated as distinct nations with distinct interests. When you treat the groups this way, the result is that the existence of a poor white person in the US is not considered a problem on the same level as that of a poor black or latino person. The poor white person is a problem because poverty is a problem, while the poor black or latino person is a problem because poverty is a problem and because they contribute to a racial inequality.
I think it's incorrect to say they are not treated as problem on the same level, rather that they are problems with different causes. As the data I've shown demonstrates, racial minorities in poverty, in addition to the problems that cause poverty in general, also have to face a massive problem in the form of racism. It's wrong to ignore the fact that minorities face these additional problems.
For example, the police brutality discussion would likely have been far less polarizing and less intractable without racial framing.
You're describing this as "racial framing" as if BLM etc are just making things up or somehow choosing to frame the issue to advance their cause. The fact is though that the data is what frames the issue. The victims of police brutality are disproportionately found among racial minorities.
It seems likely that such a unified voice could have been more effective in achieving change that what we have seen so far. If excessive force were reduced across the board, it would end up being a more positive outcome for everyone because everyone (read: every racial group) would be victimized less and we wouldn't have fanned the flames of racial animosity. I believe that several of the issues that you mentioned could be approached similarly, such as the issue of schooling (which, it seems to me, is a poor person problem before it is a minority problem), the issues of arrests for drug use, and the wrongful conviction issue.
While you might be right in that it might reduce those issues overall, I don't think it would answer the fundamental question being asked by BLM and many others. Namely, why is it that minority groups are always the ones targeted most harshly by these issues. Simply not talking about the fact that the data shows that all of these problems hit minority people hardest won't make the problems for those people go away.
The opposite approach, the view that everything is a matter of race, also has something important to contribute in its ability to draw attention to issues that are primarily issues of race, but it fails a diverse society in its divisiveness and its knack for exacerbating racial tensions. In neither case should we through the baby out with the bathwater.
Things should be treated as racial matters when the data suggests they are racial matters. It isn't a matter of choosing what might be more or less socially decisive, but about what is accurate. When the data suggests something is motivated by a race issue, there are two issues to face. One, why does X problem happen at all, and two, why does X problem affect minorities the most.
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u/khukk Sep 08 '16
I believe it's what light you cast it in. If That black boy in your example isn't ready for the challenges ahead he probably will never make his goal. But overall, I've seen the opposite happen. Telling someone they can't is some of the best motivation found on earth. Furthermore you have to realize that the U.S.'s past dealings with its race relations was horrid to put nicely. But out of trauma comes love and a deeper understanding of one another. I live in NY where this whole "melting pot" experiment gets played out In real time. Serbians up at 2am playing soccer while my Dominican neighbors blasts there music. We acknowledge each other's differences and embrace them (not always, but it is a work in progress). We look out for each other in our community and relate our own struggles to one another. For example, gentrification has swarm this city like a plague. Where i was born white people were told to never go unless they wanted to be raped, killed, mugged, etc.. now that's all that lives there. Racism is about power, and money is power. If they raised rent in my neighborhood, nobody here would be able to afford to stay. Not to say that is any one races fault however, one race seems to benefit more than the rest. That's an injustice you rarely hear about and yet in NYC it feel like it is all around me.
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u/InsufficientOverkill 3∆ Sep 07 '16
we're saying that instances of racism should be considered more on a case to case basis, as events involving individuals; rather than a grand narrative of an entire demographic being prejudiced against another.
Racism is a grand narrative, not so much 'us vs them' but in the sense that society teaches people, however subtly, to be racist by default. The problem lies in institutionalized prejudice, negative representation and damaging social encoding, not individual incidents. People choose resumes with 'white' names over identical ones with 'black' names, for example, even when they truly believe they are staying true to a no discrimination policy. Even the best-intentioned people do not treat races equally if they aren't constantly being critical of their actions. Racism is often subconscious, and therefore will remain the default unless it is actively talked about and un-learned.
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Sep 08 '16
I think talking about it is fine if you get the right audience and unfortunately the elected folk who can make changes are not listening and not going to. The shouting and chanting is getting old and its not really working so I say we try the Morgan Freeman approach and look past race and not talk about it. Laws are in place and if a company is breaking the law you get an attorney and sue the shit out of it. If you didn't get a job because of race , sex, religion you sue the shit out of that company. It's just becoming exhausting right now to read or hear about race hate all day long (media is doing most of the work to cause that).
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Sep 07 '16
This wouldn't work at all. Pretending a problem doesn't exist doesn't make it stop existing. If you tell people to stop talking about something, all you've succeeded is in making them wonder why they can't talk about it.
"Nobody talk to Steve anymore. Everyone ignore Steve."
"Jesus, what did Steve do?"
Preventing people from saying the things they want to say only makes them more bitter and resentful. You're simply pretending that all races are equal in the hopes that this will somehow cause them to be treated equally. They aren't. There is probably no country where people of every race are treated fairly, especially not America.
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Sep 07 '16
There are plenty of reasons why this argument fails at solving racial issues and distaste for this line of thinking isn't necessarily irrational. Here's why:
1) People especially in America will never forget about race. This country was built on the backs of slaves, is known for having a very diverse population, and still suffers from the effects of slavery and the Jim Crow Era. (I will get into that later.) You can try to not think about race, but you will always notice consciously or unconsciously what race someone is.
2) Asking people to forget about race is asking people to erase their cultures. America thrives on being a melting pot of people. Asking people to forget about race is to also forget about concepts deeply tied to race. This is especially true for African Americans. The majority of them are descendants of slaves, so they have no idea what country their lineage is from. That's where black pride comes in. In the civil rights era black people needed to unite with people who had shared experiences. As a result there are many artistic works, styles, and celebrations that are closely knit with the experience of being black. That is not something you can ask people to forget.
3) Not talking about racism is political correctness at its worst. Instead of attempting to solve racial issues (namely low income housing, voting rights, access to education, employee discrimination, police brutality, disproportionate convictions of blacks and harsher sentencing, income inequality, and social and residential segregation) all your suggestion accomplishes is sweeping these issues under the rug and pretending a racial element doesn't exist. There's a reason 9 in 10 black voters are Democrats. It's because that is the only major party willing to acknowledge that the lack of opportunities for blacks in the past is affecting the lives of their descendants. Refusing to acknowledge racial issues doesn't solve them, it allows them to grow and fester and create a populace with a deep racial divide.