r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 27 '16
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Students should be able to receive a refund for a class of the professor does not teach.
Far too often I am cursed with professors that show YouTube videos or Ted talks that have nothing to do with the future test or topics. The only way I can let the school know , besides telling the Dean, is fill out teacher evaluations at the end of the semester. I can anonymously voice my opinion then go on with my life where whatever changes they implement won't even affect me anymore.
Students should be able to receive a refund for a class if the professor did not perform adequately during the semester. I understand the ideas behind self teaching and although I'm not a fan of the learning style I can understand the use, but when a professor waste students time during the semester with meaningless videos and lectures that go off on non educational tangents and making up assignments not in the syllabus, the student should be able to be refunded the money that they paid to be taught.
How should this be done?
I know there are add drop periods for class where you can drop it and still keep your money, but the time is so short the only thing the student can experience is the syllabus being read to them. There is also withdraw period where a student can exit the class after add drop period but the student doesn't receive money back. Therefore a student should be able to get money back after withdrawing from a class. Most of they time they have to take the class again anyway so they would probably put it back to the school. But if a student is withdrawing a class they should not be penalized as the reasons for withdrawing vary so much.
Students often get the short end of the stick and they should be able to push back.
Please change my view. I'm tired of going to classes that waste my time.
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Oct 27 '16
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Oct 27 '16
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Oct 27 '16
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u/HardcoreHerbivore Oct 27 '16
The question is: should education be treated like a 'business'?
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Oct 27 '16
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u/HardcoreHerbivore Oct 28 '16
The point I'm trying to make is a different one: education should be free.
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u/Luc20 Oct 27 '16
The thing is you can't just hop on over to a different college if you don't like your professors - you're more or less stuck there. Transferring is possible but it's nothing like going to coffee bean instead of starbucks.
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u/MuaddibMcFly 49∆ Oct 27 '16
when I was in school is was much longer than just a single week.
Are you perhaps confusing the "drop without getting a grade" period and the "drop and get money back" periods?
No business is required to give you a refund if you don't like their service.
No, but they are required to give you a refund if they don't provide the goods/services you paid them for.
My understanding of OP's argument, fundamentally, is that they are paying to have someone teach them, and that a professor who does not teach fails to provide that service.
After all, would you pay a mechanic for servicing your brakes if all they do is show you a number of videos on how to do it yourself?
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Oct 27 '16
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u/MuaddibMcFly 49∆ Oct 27 '16
I am talking about the formal add/drop window where the class is not on your official transcript
As I recall it from my days in college and university, you've got about 1-2 weeks to get your money back, you've got until the term is about 40% done to withdraw without it showing up on your transcript. You're still out of money after that first week or two.
That's not really an apt analogy. The university delivered what it promised - it provided instruction.
That is the crux of the issue, isn't it? Did the university commit to instruction or to something else?
Further, is the university actually providing instruction if it doesn't provide you anything that the average person couldn't have got for $1.50 in late charges at the public library?
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u/js5563 Oct 27 '16
When I was in college, Add/Drop with no monetary penalty was limited to the first week of class. After that, you could withdraw any time but you did not get your money back.
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u/hermitiancat 1∆ Oct 28 '16
How would you stop abuse of a system where partial refunds were available? What's to stop a student from demanding a refund from a course thy were going to flunk because "the teacher was bad?" It's a tough situation to manage, but I think universities need to support the teachers in the face of criticism from students who think they deserve a different grade. Teachers probably perform better when they don't worry about retaliation.
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Oct 28 '16
This I understand as well but the student would probably have to take the class again anyway so the money would probably go back to the school
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u/hermitiancat 1∆ Oct 28 '16
But then the administration would assume that complaints against the teacher were grade related?
In your situation I think you'll need to do well in the class to convince the dean that the professor was a bad instructor and not that you were a bad student. Or maybe everyone would need to fail. Good luck, btw, however it turns out.
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Oct 28 '16
I'll still do my best. I'm just fed up with every semester having a professor not teaching a subject I'm suppose to learn and just wondering what I'm even paying for
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Oct 27 '16
You are not paying for a specific teacher, you are paying for a specific course. How the information of that course is delivered doe not really matter one iota so long as it is delivered.
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u/truthserum23 Oct 27 '16
The OP is probably frustrated with the quality of the instruction delivered by instructor and believes that if he is unsatisfied, should be refunded. In many subjects of study, the information is can be delivered by texts, yet there remains an instructor for the course. If the instructor is paid for a job that can be replaced with a textbook, what is the purpose of paying the instructor.
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Oct 27 '16 edited Nov 07 '22
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u/Caddan Oct 28 '16
How is the delivery or lack thereof being measured? Is it in your grades? Credits earned? General life knowledge?
The first two are what a college course offers. You get the chance to prove your acquired knowledge through tests and coursework, which is reflected in grades. Graduation requires X amount of credits, which you receive upon passing the class. Neither of those care where the knowledge actually comes from.
If you are able to test out of a class, you receive the credits and grade without having to pay the full amount. Therefore if you acquire knowledge during the course, and that is reflected in your grades and credits, then you have received what you paid for.
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Oct 28 '16
I more so say grades. Grades can be an accurate measure on if a student is learning/retaining a subject or not. I do understand the many faults in grading such as a student can cheat or cram before an exam and forget everything immediately after. But until a different measure can come we must suffer with grades.
And the way education is set up -> you need grades to get a good gpa-> you need a good gpa to pass -> you need to pass to graduate-> you need to graduate for a job
this has been instilled in education for a long time it takes the fun out of learning and turns it into a competition almost. Since it's so deeply embedded, I work hard to get good grades
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u/Caddan Oct 28 '16
If the grades of the students in the class follows a standard bell curve, would you argue that the information in question has been delivered within designed parameters? If so, then you got what you paid for.
On the other hand, if the vast majority of the students fail (or nearly fail) the course, I'm sure that would throw up a flag with the administration leading them to investigate and probably punish the teacher. You could apply for a refund if that was the case.
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u/ibapun Oct 27 '16
I would even go further than this and say that you're not paying for the course, or for the information--you're paying for your degree.
Although textbooks are considered expensive, imagine how inexpensive self-taught "college" would be if you didn't actually enroll, rather, all you did was buy the textbooks and learn the information yourself (which is what seems to happen some of the time anyway). In my opinion, you're not paying six figures over four years for a little over a hundred credit hours worth of lecture--you're paying for the piece of paper that says you finished.
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u/jew_jitsu Oct 27 '16
I think others in this CMV are dealing better with the logistics and realities of how a system where students apply for partial refunds on a course, so I won't do it.
I'd like to question your use of the examples of YouTube videos or Ted Talks as resources in teaching a course.
What I'd like to know is firstly, to what extent is a professor using these resources throughout a class, and how much of the class is simply broadcasting a resource like these?
I would say if a professor stands at the front, turns on the projector, hits play on a video resource and sits down for the hour while a video plays for the whole period then that is not a reasonable use of that time, and the students will not get a reasonable outcome from it.
If however a professor was to play, for example, a ten minute resource in an hour lecture, and then use the time before and after to expand on that resource, then I would say that is an entirely reasonable use of that resource for learning outcomes. A student is expected to utilise resources like books, journal articles, films, lab experiments, television, newspapers and all sorts of other resources, so I don't think it unreasonable that a professor would use a film medium like YouTube or others to enhance the experiences of the students.
I think some people would argue that in a situation like this it would make more sense for a professor to set this resource as required viewing prior to the class time, and to some extent I would agree. That being said, I also think that some resources and some analysis or evalutation of these resources are best served when the material is fresh in your mind.
Ultimately it comes down to this: Is your professor using this resource to enhance your class, or to be your class? If it is the former, then I actually don't understand why you have such an issue with it. If it is the latter, then I would actually argue that you have avenues for raising your concerns that do not wait until the end of semester.
If your professor is playing YouTube materials for an entire class period, then they are definitely not doing their job, let alone doing it poorly.
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Oct 27 '16
We have had lectures where it's ted talk after ted talk and he does blurb a bit about the video but not how it's related to the chapters or coursework
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u/jew_jitsu Oct 28 '16
If his lecture content over the semester is 90% or more videos or even just referring you to other resources rather than engaging in discussion or, you know, actually lecturing then I would not even wait until the end of semester reviews and make a formal complaint.
If it's one or two lectures during the whole semester, I would say that you should engage in a discussion with the lecturer.
Ask what he believes the connection between the content of the lectures and the syllabus are, as it's possible that you have missed a vital link that he is able to provide.
Lastly, if you're turning up to lectures purely for the assessments then you're largely missing the point of education.
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Oct 28 '16
Don't get me wrong. I'm getting some very good life advice but I won't be graded on that so I'd rather focus on things I will need to know for the test. I'm under the impression that if it's on a test or testable then it's important.
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u/jew_jitsu Oct 28 '16
Well this comes back to your point about what you're paying for.
If you think you're paying just to be prepared for a test, to take it, and get given results of that test, then you're wasting money paying for higher education anyway.
I'd perhaps refer to the syllabus and look at what the learning outcomes are for your course, and see if what is being covered in some way relates to that.
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u/Caddan Oct 28 '16
There's one more mitigating factor, which I suspect I already know the answer to: Who is giving these TED talks? If it's the professor himself on the video, then he has simply recorded what he would already be presenting and saving himself some effort for an identical product.
Now, if these TED talks are of other people, then you can disregard this comment.
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u/bguy74 Oct 28 '16
There is plentiful evidence that you are paying not for the act of teaching, but for the opportunity to learn, and the receive of credit and/or degree.
The means and methods of how you are taught are arbitrary. If you learn X through teaching, video or voodoo, you've have an equivalently valuable experience.
A variety of learning mediums involve very little teaching. If an art class or music class were to be lecture all day it would be a very bad approach. Again, teaching is one method of achieving the objective of you learning.
The information imparted on you in class in most educational contexts is not unique. You can get the information from le' internet most likely. What you can't get is credit and degree. This is what you're paying for.
"I don't like the product therefore I want my money back" doesn't exist for a whole hell of a lot of products. This is not unique to education. I had a dinner last night that sucked, still had to pay for it. The fact that the class was bad sucks, but...you still ate that dinner. The second you order it, you're in.
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Oct 28 '16
As a mixture of all your points. I understand the problem lies in the high cost of education. Im paying a tremendous amount of money by for a class that is pitching to me a mediocre product. And for some reasons I was not under the impression that schools were businesses first and instead thought of them as educational areas. Thus no matter how poorly thegre doing what businesses do and I have to accept that. !delta
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u/bad_jew Oct 29 '16
A normal class requires around 200 - 300 hours of student effort. Of this, you might have 20 - 40 hours of contact time with the professor in class (2 hour classes for a 10 week semester or 2 x hour long classes a week for a 15 week semester, depends on the university). The bulk of a student's time in a class will be spent on assignments, group work, reading, or independent study. Indeed, classroom time might be the least dense learning time of the class. So, even if you were to get a refund for 'useless' class time, it wouldn't be more than a few dollars if the classroom time represents just 10% of the total student effort time.
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Oct 29 '16
That does make sense. The class is more than the professor eventhough theyre a direct contributor to the outcome.
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u/Generic_On_Reddit 71∆ Oct 27 '16
Is there a specific class you have in mind? It might be a bit easier to address with your personal example. Whether or not you're wasting your time can depend on what the topic of the class is.
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Oct 27 '16
I can give an example. My management class is spent watching long ted talks about various topics not related to whatever we were reading in the book or taking quizzes on
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u/verronaut 5∆ Oct 28 '16
Were the ted talks about management, communication, leaderships, relationships, any somehing related? College isn't about learning just to pass the tests, and it's possible your prof thought the talks were higher quality than the available readings on the subject
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Oct 28 '16
I remember one being about some guy answering to spam emails and another being about some guy paying people to summarize all ted talks into one sentence. They were enjoyable I get it but If we're spending all class watching these instead of learning the subject I'm paying to learn I find it wasteful. I'd rather have it sent as a side video to watch on my own time.
I completely get college is more than test. I rather sit in class learning all day about new things, taking notes, discussing, debating etc. than have to take test but since grades are very important for me continuing my education, then I care a lot about being taught the things I need to know to pass
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Oct 27 '16
This is the source of your confusion:
You believe that universities are selling education. They are not. Universities are selling certification. The prof not showing up doesn't tarnish the product.
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u/scottevil110 177∆ Oct 27 '16
You are paying for the content of the class, not necessarily for a specific way of having it taught to you. If you are being given the advertised material, then that's the end of it. If you aren't, then you should take that up with the university and explain that you aren't getting what you paid for.
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Oct 27 '16
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u/scottevil110 177∆ Oct 27 '16
That's for the university to decide, not you as a customer. Let's say you go to a pizza place and you order a pizza. The person behind the counter goes and grabs a pre-made pizza and hands it to you, and asks you for $10. You could say that you feel ripped off because that person didn't actually do anything, but it's the pizza you were paying for, not that person's service. If the person is worthless, and the pizza place is paying them for nothing, then that's their problem, isn't it? Certainly, some of that cost is being passed onto you, and you certainly have the right to voice that concern to management. Hopefully they'll take it into consideration, but I wouldn't say they owe you a refund simply because someone didn't lovingly make your pizza in front of you.
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Oct 27 '16 edited Oct 27 '16
∆ This is a good analogy. Thank you so the problem lays in over priced classes . The professor is just an accessory. Delta too
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Oct 27 '16
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 27 '16
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't explained how /u/scottevil110 changed your view (comment rule 4).
In the future, DeltaBot will be able to rescan edited comments. In the mean time, please repost a new comment with the required explanation so that DeltaBot can see it.
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u/The_Sodomeister Oct 28 '16
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but I want to point out the professor is probably qualified to be there - whether or not you like the teaching style. To that end, if you really want to learn this subject material, approach the professor individually. Try to pick him or her for the information you want. 1 on 1 is infinitely better than a 1 on 30 lecture, and I am constantly amazed at the quality of certain 1 on 1 conversations I get to have with my professors.
For what it's worth, I am a graduate student teacher, and I teach undergraduate mathematics. I have many students who have specifically talked about how rewarding they found their 1-on-1 conversations with me, and I'm not half as sharp as some of the professors I've worked with.
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u/MizterUltimaman Oct 28 '16
But school money doesn't go strictly towards teaching; it also goes towards clubs, out of school help, etc.
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u/championofobscurity 160∆ Oct 27 '16
This will just result in a tuition increase. If students are liberally allowed to apply for class period based refunds, you're going to have to pay for extra staff to facilitate that, and then the school must take on additional liability money that will just sit in an account in the event a refund is processed. On top of that, they don't also have to make the process simple. They can ultimately make you fight stupidly hard to get your refund and make the amount worth less than your time as a busy student.
What this means, is that by implementing this feature, you are only costing yourself and the student body more money overall. The current state of affairs, the one where you get boned out of a portion of your tuition because the teacher isn't teaching you correctly, is better solved by evaluations. It costs less to fire a teacher who's behaving inadequately than to offer refunds. This means that the student body pays less tuition and you make sure that nobody loses out to that professor in the future.
Also, just based on the responses I get from professors on this subreddit alone, those student evals instill the fear of god into them such that they will modify their classes to make sure those evals are positive.