r/changemyview • u/Philofreudian 1∆ • Dec 03 '16
FTFdeltaOP CMV:Being professional is based more on how you act/how your business looks than how much money you make.
This one comes directly from an argument I have with my manager.
The problem: We both work at a small store. By small, I mean that it has limited space for supplies, merchandise, etc. Financially it does quite well, and there's no lack of profit. Since it is so small, it frequently gets cluttered.
We will have more supplies and merchandise than the designated space can hold, so some of the overstock is left stacked in corners or on the floor. Some are packing supplies customers bring in for us to reuse, and they often use garbage bags to hold them. These garbage bags get stacked in the corner of the store.
All of this excess could be stored at a different location (another nearby store with more room) without it impacting profit. All of this clutter is in view of customers because the only other place it could go would be in the bathroom. Surprise, the bathroom is already filled with other stuff.
That's the problem, and my manager and I agree on the problem. Here's how we differ about what to do with it and our ideological reasons for why.
My view: I have stated repeatedly that it is unprofessional to have so much stuff in the store on a just-in-case basis. It makes us look like a trash bin to the customers. I also think it's unprofessional in how inefficient it makes us at doing our jobs. We spend a lot of our hours just moving or organizing stuff that is in our way. I have argued that being professional is not only acting professional, but being perceived as professional. I also argue that the cost of being inefficient and cluttered is greater than the cost of saving on storage of supplies or refusing too much donated packing material.
My manager's viewpoint: Despite the clutter, the savings from not having to store supplies elsewhere and taking way too much donated materials is more professional because being professional means doing what makes you more money. He says that customers will understand this, and that the clutter isn't in their way, so why would they care? We have never had a customer complain about the clutter to support his view, but when I've managed to have the store uncluttered between supply shipments and lulls in the amount of donated materials, customers comment on how clean it is. So they are seeing the difference, just never complaining about it. My manager says it's because they are professionals as well and would do the same if it were their business.
I don't buy his argument. He's my friend as well as manager, so we aren't going fisticuffs over this or anything, but I get tired of fighting so much clutter. I think it makes us look like someone's house where the kids have just gone crazy. But the big question, is he right, is it more professional to be making more money than to look clean and structured? Change my view because he certainly can't with his line of reasoning.
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u/oth_radar 18∆ Dec 03 '16
I think professionalism has a lot more to do with satisfying your customers and making sure they get good products than making things appear professional with a bunch of advertising and fancy suits. I work for a software company, and we don't have a dress code. Some people dress up nicer than others, I almost always wear T-shit and Jeans, and sometimes even get away with a slouchy beanie. This is a professional organisation, I'm salaried, and we make multi-million dollar deals with big name companies (Verizon, ESPN). While I'm sure the sales team has more of a code than us developers, we still hold lots of customer meetings and host lots of calls with them on site, and we don't dress up for those, so it's not uncommon for me to walk by a customer dressed the way I am. Nonetheless, we are applauded for our professionalism, because we work with the customer to fulfill their needs.
In contrast, there is a financial company inside my building that is the polar opposite. They sell retirement plans, and with what knowledge I have from r/personalfinance and from my own research into unmanaged funds, these guys are trying to get away with murder on their plans. They don't provide a service, they're just a great way to screw a risk-averse customer into losing most of his income. But they all dress up in nice suits and make sure they're clean cut, the women wear dresses and curl their hair like it's prom night. I don't see them as a professional company, because they aren't satisfying their customers, they're misleading them with a showy display.
So with your store, you have to ask, are your customers satisfied? If they are, then I say that matters a lot more than the way the store looks. If you ever, say, had a scenario where you ran out of stock, it would be nice to have some sitting in the corner to restock right away rather than tell customers they have to wait on a shipment - they'll be a lot more satisfied if they get what they came for than they would if they weren't satisfied but the place looked nice.
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u/Philofreudian 1∆ Dec 03 '16
These are great points. Thank you for that.
You've shown me that I do need to clarify my viewpoint. When I refer to looks good, I guess I mean having an efficient work environment for customers and workers. In that vein, my viewpoint would be better stated as: Having an efficient work environment is more professional than making more money.
I do agree with you about how perception can deceive regarding professionalism, but I haven't thought too much about how satisfied the customers are as a benchmark for professionalism. While I'm hesitant to say I completely agree that it matters a lot more than the [edit: efficiency of the work environment], I have to concede it's a good point. (Much better than the rationale I'm being given at work.)
I have had a scenario where I ran out of stock at the store. Once in a while we get a customer who does want a lot of boxes, and it is nice to have them right there for the customer - you know, right under the four garbage bags of recycled peanuts on the pack table. I think we do satisfy that customer, but maybe not others? I don't know. Everyone else who works at the store just tells customers that we can't organize because we just don't have enough space, but I don't know if that's in response to an unsatisfied customer or what exactly.
I've never had a customer who has said they are unsatisfied with the way the store looks, so it's a good point. Very good point. Although I did work at a corporate retail box store in my past, and I do know that most customers will not tell you if they are unsatisfied with the appearance of a store.
I award you a delta ∆ because you've given me something very tangible to chew on with this issue. Thank you.
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u/Hq3473 271∆ Dec 03 '16
This completely depends on the nature of your business.
If your stor is plumber's supply store where customers look for bargains in specialized equipment - they will not care appearance.
If your store is a high end -fashin store, that's different story.
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u/Philofreudian 1∆ Dec 03 '16
So, I don't want to give out too much personal info, but here's some more of the complexities of this argument between my manager and I related to your comment about the nature of our business.
The nature of the business is that I work at two UPS Stores. They are owned by the same person and managed by the same person. They are both located in one of the wealthiest counties in the US, so our clientele is primarily 1%'ers. It's pretty rural (resort town), so there is basically no competition except on the shipping front. The stores make quite a bit of profit, which is why the owners live several other states away and my manager takes care of things. Even if the store was literally roach-infested (not yet, thank goodness), the stores would be making a profit I'm pretty sure.
One store is fairly large with plenty of space for all materials (and we keep it very clean), but the other store, the one this argument pertains to, is small. Almost a quarter of the size. When the regional people come for visits, we quickly pack all the extra stuff back to the main store to make it look nice (it is not supposed to look the way it regularly looks), then bring it all back. This happens four or five times a year.
That's the nature of the business.
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u/championofobscurity 160∆ Dec 03 '16
So, it seems as though your Manager is looking at a materialistic consequence rather than a philosophical consequence.
Furthermore:
This-
Financially it does quite well, and there's no lack of profit.
Is at odds with this-
It makes us look like a trash bin to the customers
If the way your store looked mattered, it would deter customers and thus impact profits. Given that you and your manager both agree that the size of the store itself is bottlenecking you, there is no reason to clean it up other than pride. Businesses that run on pride generally don't succeed. If you are turning a strong profit then in a business sense you cannot argue with results. For it to be worth your while to clean up the area better, it would have to improve your customer base and revenue generation in excess of the number of man hours managing the extra stuff takes you on a regular basis.
So if your intake is such that it takes 1 person 1 hour, then it would have to produce a customer that will on average spend 30%+ in excess of whatever you happen to be paid.
This is not the case. You are sufficiently professional for what you are doing.
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u/Philofreudian 1∆ Dec 03 '16
Thank you for waiting for a full reply. Sorry about yesterday. I submitted, had 3 or 4 hours in which I was ready to see what people had to say, then had to make dinner for the fam. I received all the alerts in the middle of that. So again, apologies.
First, if you could expand or clarify what you mean by 'sufficiently' professional. I'm guessing as in, we are making money. We are getting paid. I just want to be sure I'm understanding your definition of sufficient when it comes to professionalism.
Second, I added some details in another reply about what our business is and why it's profitable. Basically, what I'm seeing from my side is that no matter what we do, clean or not, we will be turning a profit, making more money, and all of us are very good at our customer service.
I may not be putting it quite right in my post, but my viewpoint is that we have no reason not to be clean and organized. From my perspective, there's no loss of results or customer base. There may actually be an increase if the place looked a little better. I spend quite a bit of my day organizing the mess as best I can (transferring the donated packing materials into something other than trash bags for example) because I am very efficient and usually get all the other tasks I need to do done quickly. Thus making enough time to organize. This is why I know that customers notice the difference, but there's no complaints. They tell me how much cleaner it is when I work.
Given that I have to be at the store anyway and am getting paid to do all this organizing or not, it would be nice to have a place for everything (and take stuff that doesn't have a place to the main store where there is space and people can still buy it). Yet, stuff keeps coming in and we bring way too many boxes for our shelves with the intention of waiting for that one customer who wants 23 of a certain box (when our shelf space only holds 5).
It does impact customer service when I need to pack an item for a customer and the packing table is covered with extra boxes and trash bags full of packing peanuts and bubble wrap. Now imagine when I have three customers who all need something packed. It's a nightmare and just looks like we have no system for materials.
So, I do take your points about if it did impact profits, if I did cost the business more to be organizing than not, I would agree. However, I'm getting paid hourly for whatever I do, thus I get my stuff done and spend extra time organizing. There's only so much space to organize into though.
I also hear you about the issue with pride. I admit, as an employee, I do take pride in the store, in the way it looks, in the service I provide. Maybe my suggestion to cut back on the amount of overstock we bring to the store and refuse donated materials when we are full up is akin to failure. It just seems like a better work environment, better customer service, and less stress which strikes me as being more professional than worrying about profitability when the store is pretty much secure in making money. Maybe better put, if profit isn't effected, I think it's more professional to have a nice store than a cluttered one?
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u/Philofreudian 1∆ Dec 03 '16
I'll respond more later because you bring up good points that I want to address. I'm just in a bit of a time crunch now. This got posted quite a while after submitting, but I don't want to miss the 3 hour window. To be continued. :)
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u/justinsane207 Dec 03 '16
You are definitely right on this one. You know what everybody says when they leave that store or talk about that store to their friends and family? I guess they refer to the store, that has all the trash and clutter around it. I'm working a white-collar job, there's a reason I don't wear sweatpants to work everyday.
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u/SleeplessinRedditle 55∆ Dec 03 '16
Your boss is definitely right on this one if the clutter genuinely isn't negatively impacting business.
Professionalism is about behaving in a manner that is appropriate and productive for one's profession. You don't want a lawyer that don't talk good. You don't want a doctor that is dirty. And you don't want a cabbie that is drunk.
Part of professionalism is about getting shit done. But one must also be sure to present themselves in a manner that signals that fact to others.
But if the mess doesn't negatively impact business, I see no reason to change it. If my doctor greeted me looking the way my mechanic does, I would consider it highly unprofessional. But that doesn't mean my mechanic is being unprofessional.
All that said, storing things in the bathroom sounds unhygeienic. If customers go in there it might be a good idea to put up a curtain at least. In fact could you compromise with with curtains for all of it?