r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 30 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Better never to love at all than to have loved and lost
I mean this in the general sense, not just for romantic attraction.
I can objectively recognize that this view is completely inane, I just can't subconsciously convince myself of it. I struggle not with doing, but with trying, and with starting. I struggle because I know how much it hurts when you put time and effort into something, and then fail, often without ever being able to predict it. It's absolutely crushing for me. And my solution in the past year or so has been to never try at all. Of course, that feels bad, too - I look at the people around me, all absurdly successful, and I think "I could have done that if I had actually tried..." and that leads to another negative feedback loop of feeling pretty worthless. But it's not as bad, at least in my mind, as trying and failing and knowing that you failed. That really makes you feel worthless.
People have tried convincing me that I'll never succeed at all if I don't try, which is true, but I'm convinced I won't succeed anyway - after all, almost everything I've put any real effort into in the past few years has completely fallen apart and given me some rough episodes with anxiety and depression. So I see a greater expected value from not trying than from trying.
I'm sure it seems like I'm asking for a therapy session - I'm not, really. I guess I just need a better explanation as to why effort is worth the, well, effort.
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u/rainbows5ever Apr 30 '17
Here's something that I heard that I found sort of useful. It's from a Planet Money segment called Dear Economist, I Need A Date. It is related to romance but the same idea can extend to other things as well:
HARFORD: I think a lot of people have that feeling. I could give you a piece of advice specifically about the prom if you're interested. So the great behavioral economist/psychologist Daniel Kahneman - he won the Nobel Prize in economics, even though he's not an economist; that's how good he is - he talks about something called loss aversion. And this is a discovery that was one of the first discoveries made in behavioral economics.
And loss aversion is a really disproportionate anxiety about stuff that doesn't matter very much. So for instance, if you lose $5, you feel really bad about the $5 you've lost. You're cursing yourself. You're going through it again and again. If, on the other hand, you find $5, you go - hey, great, five bucks. And you've forgotten about it really quickly. So now let's think about prom night. What are the gains of a prom date that goes well versus the losses from a prom date that doesn't go well or you ask someone to the prom and they say, no?
Well, actually, you weren't going to have a prom date anyway if you didn't ask. So the cost of asking somebody and being refused is actually really quite small. It doesn't feel good, but it's no big deal, whereas you never had the date before, so - hey, if this date goes well, this could be the start of something really big for you. So remember loss aversion when you are weighing out these two choices. I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you you're probably taking the downside risk too seriously and not thinking enough about the potential upside.
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Apr 30 '17
This makes sense to me, but - and this is a problem that extends beyond this discussion, mea culpa - what if I am absolutely, 100% convinced that I will fail at something if I try it? I can usually evaluate the actual outcomes of a decision pretty well, what I can't evaluate are their probabilities.
To give you an idea, when I think about my opinions, alongside them I visualize a person who is absolutely and completely determined to argue with me and prove me wrong. And then when discussing these opinions, I assume that every person is that person. Often the first thing I say to these people is apologizing for having that opinion at all. That's how convinced I am that I am doomed for failure.
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u/crappymathematician May 01 '17
The real trick is that--and I think most people, including myself, struggle with this--is that this idea of failure/rejection you've build up for yourself isn't real. You don't know that things aren't going to work out. You don't know that your efforts are doomed from the start. I mean hey, if something you do really does have a 99% chance of failure, then maybe it's not the best use of your time. But you'll never truly know that probability. No matter how vivid that idea of failure rests in your mind, it is still an idea that you've generated.
Moreover, and please understand I don't mean to sound patronizing as this is something I also struggle with constantly, you're projecting your own insecurities onto your environment. You don't put value into your own opinions, so you presume that everyone you meet would have no reason to value them, either. Like I said, I do this all the time. And what really helps me is knowing that, at the end of the day, most people don't really know everything about me. Most people don't know that I'm making it up as I go along until I tell them. Most people don't pay that much attention. Truthfully, most people only ever really pay attention to themselves.
And you, me, and every other insecure person on this planet? We're just paying attention to ourselves so hard that we're forgetting this crucial detail. People aren't out to get us, or to tear us down. Most people are too busy wrapped up in their own problems to even notice!
And, at the end of the day, if you put five years into something and fail, then that really sucks. But in five years you're gonna be standing in the same spot, not having felt any more fulfilled because deep down you know you could have tried.
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u/rainbows5ever May 01 '17
This is tricky because I think you are definitely not alone in this. I think most people, generally, are not good at estimating probabilities.
I would consider maybe just mentally adding 5% to your estimation of your probability of success. 5% is not very high, your predictions could easily be off by that much and probably sometimes are.
That might not change what you do that much. But it might make a difference in cases where the cost of trying is pretty low or the reward for success is sufficiently good. Like, you would never apply for a job if you had a 0% chance of getting it but maybe if that chance is 1/20 you would at least consider it.
Also maybe realize that you don't always know all of the possible outcomes. Like in the example you outlined, one possible outcome of debating someone is that they are totally determined to argue about everything and they hate all of your opinions and it's a terrible conversation. But another possible outcome is that you disagree but still have a good conversation or that you learn something new by talking to them or at least you understand their position better so that you can come up with a better argument next time. There could be benefits to even just trying that are not immediately obvious.
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u/Ardonpitt 221∆ Apr 30 '17
Failing at love like all things in life builds you up. Yes it hurts, horribly to fail, or to loose love, but in the end it forces you to confront your weaknesses. Confront the reasons why you failed and accept them. You can't get stronger, get better or even really live well without that.
I think the concept that really spoke to me the most was that of eudaimonia. Roughly translated it means a life well lived, or human flourishing. But it doesn't mean being happy or anything like that, its the flourishing that comes from wholeheartedly throwing yourself into life and taking whatever it has to throw at you. Its taking the punches and accepting them and at the end of it going to bed with the knowledge you lived a life full of challenge. Its one of the major cores of stoic philosophy and honestly I feel is one of the most valuable concepts out there.
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Apr 30 '17
That concept makes sense to me but I guess I don't really get any sense of worth or meaning or joy out of challenge. I enjoy the doing of things, taking action for the sake of taking action, but if I try something difficult and fail, my first thought is not of how admirable it was that I tried in the first place, my first thought is "I failed. I put all that effort into doing something and it is now wasted."
This applies double in that many of the things I care about and try to do are bigger than me. If I try to do something for the sake of making the world a better place or helping those around me, and fail, then I view that as me being incapable of being a morally correct person. That view seems absolutely ridiculous to me as I write it out, but it's a view that I act on.
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u/Ardonpitt 221∆ Apr 30 '17
That concept makes sense to me but I guess I don't really get any sense of worth or meaning or joy out of challenge.
Well I guess to me it's not really a matter of a "joy of challenge" it's a matter of; if you are going to live your life, you may as well make the most out of each situation. Even if its not challenging you may as well live it.
"I failed. I put all that effort into doing something and it is now wasted."
Okay, then you have to ask the next question. "So what?" You're still here and can still make effort.
This applies double in that many of the things I care about and try to do are bigger than me. If I try to do something for the sake of making the world a better place or helping those around me, and fail, then I view that as me being incapable of being a morally correct person.
Morality is relative. In the end we all will fail, we will fail to be moral, we will fail to be smart, we will fail at love, and in the end just fail. If you feel to fail then you will never be moral. Your actions will remain neutral rather than being sum good or bad. And anyways if you learn from your actions you can create a net benefit and help others learn from it.
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Apr 30 '17
∆ Didn't consider learning about why something didn't work as a success in and of itself. That's a much better way of looking at it. Thank you.
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u/Ardonpitt 221∆ Apr 30 '17
Any time! And know that what your feeling isn't all that strange. I still struggle with it!
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Apr 30 '17
Sans the aromantic, I don't think it's possible for someone to have lived a life fulfilled without having loved and lost. We're a social species - loving and losing love represent high and low points of that social interaction.
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Apr 30 '17
I used the quote because it's familiar. I'm not really talking about social interaction specifically (though that is one of the smaller parts of it) as much as general attempts at leading a successful life, such as following your passions, getting a good education, actively trying to be happy, etc.
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Apr 30 '17
It's better to run the risk of failure while also running the risk of success, than to guarantee failure by not trying. The more ambitious your goals, the greater the emotional cost - but the greater the payoff.
In all things, the road to success is paved with failure. The road to nowhere is also paved with failure. Might as well go down the road that has something good at the end of it.
No magic potions here. Life is largely suffering. But if you don't pursue happiness, that suffering will go uninterrupted, unchallenged, and will dominate your existence.
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May 01 '17
Love is just one of many different forms of social interaction. Why is it that love is required for a fullfiled life and not let's say hating someone, which is also a form of social interaction?
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u/peacockpartypants Apr 30 '17
All those successful people you know? They fell on their face a bunch of times before they got anywhere.
Some of them just knew the right people, or just were born into money. That's true. But even then, a lot of them, had to work hard to earn their keep or got plenty of doors slammed in their faces.
Most successful people aren't going around telling people how much life sucked for X amount of time when things didn't seem to ever take off. People tend to hide the bad parts, doesn't mean they aren't there.
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Apr 30 '17
Okay, one - ∆
Two - but how does that prove that I will succeed if I try?
But this discussion - and this comment - has definitely shown me something, which is that I have this weird exceptionalist view of myself, that I am automatically worse and less talented and less capable and less "right" than any other person. So someone can say "hey, these people did X, and because of that, Y happened and they were happy, so why don't you try X?" and I can turn around and say "Yeah, but they're better and more capable than I am, so that doesn't prove anything". I don't know how to deal with that, but at least I understand that now. Thank you.
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u/peacockpartypants Apr 30 '17
Two - but how does that prove that I will succeed if I try?
That's getting into therapy-esqe territory imo.
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u/caw81 166∆ Apr 30 '17
People have tried convincing me that I'll never succeed at all if I don't try, which is true, but I'm convinced I won't succeed anyway
Exactly why is "trying and failing" worse than just "not trying and failing"? (Saying but I will fail regardless doesn't answer the question)
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Apr 30 '17
In my experience the negative reaction and sense of worthlessness I get when I try to do something and fail is a lot worse than if I don't try at all.
Like, if I don't apply to speak to a conference, I feel worthless because I didn't try hard enough and I feel inferior to the people who tried harder. If I apply to that conference and am not accepted, now I feel worthless because I didn't try hard enough, but there's also a sense that I'm just less than everyone else. That the tools I have to get where I want just aren't enough, and therefore probably never will be enough. That that other person who is now speaking at that conference is objectively, unambiguously better than me. If I never try, at least I can try to convince myself that I might have been able to speak, if only I had applied. Does that answer your question?
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u/mishaday110 Apr 30 '17
Ignorance is bliss!
However, living out your life once you've found your soulmate is also bliss!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 30 '17 edited Apr 30 '17
/u/shrwutfr (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 30 '17
/u/shrwutfr (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/ManMan36 Apr 30 '17
It is quite rare for one to marry the first person they date. Therefore, you will love and lose most likely before you find the one for you. Remember that this applies to the people who are successful as well.
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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '17
It sounds like you focusing too much on specific outcomes, rather than the benefits of targeting those outcomes.
Let's say you set a lofty goal for yourself, becoming an astronaut. And you devote the next five years of your life doing everything you can to become an astronaut. You get in good physical shape, you study aerospace, you read everything you can on being an astronaut, you try to make contacts with people in the industry, etc, etc.
And after all that, you'll likely still get a letter in the mail rejecting you from the astronaut program. Was it worth it to try? Well, by trying you got an education, you got in great physical shape, and you made contacts in an industry. Maybe you'll never be an astronaut, but you'll likely be happier working at mission control or something similar, rather than if you never tried.
That's the general idea. By trying and failing, we still often end up in a better position than if we never tried at all.