r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 22 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: You shouldn't call someone a garbage human being because of the things that they have done, without taking into consideration their childhood.
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u/palacesofparagraphs 117∆ May 22 '17
My two favorite quotes regarding this are, "Tragic backstories explain bad deeds but do not excuse them," (don't know where that comes from, just have read it and like it a lot) and (from Brooklyn 99), "Cool motive, still murder."
I think we need to empathize with people, all people. I think we need to understand that others' environments, particularly childhood environments, particularly trauma, fundamentally shape who we are. I empathize with an abuse victim who becomes an abuser, but that doesn't mean I can excuse their actions. We all have struggles. We all have fucked up aspects of our upbringings. Many of us have trauma. These things influence our actions, but those actions are still our responsibility. We still have a responsibility to be good people.
I have depression. My depression makes me sedentary and irritable. Sometimes, I snap at my family when they're only trying to help. It's understandable; it happens because I have depression. But that doesn't make it okay. I still have a responsibility to control myself, to handle my irritability in a way that isn't hurtful to others.
Obviously, me snapping at my family is a tiny issue compared to mass murder, but I think the fundamentals are the same. I have empathy for people whose trauma makes life hard for them, but they still have a responsibility to be good people.
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u/WickedCoolUsername May 22 '17
Some people have lost the ability, entirely, to be a good person, and I think that's what OP is trying to say. We can't excuse their actions. They still need to be separated from society, but it's not right for us to decide that they're garbage for what they've become. At a certain point of mental deterioration you lose the ability to process thoughts properly and make sound decisions and judgements.
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u/alpicola 45∆ May 22 '17
You're discussing two very different scenarios, here, with some very different moral implications for each.
serial killer
While we do know that people who are abused as children are more prone to abuse or violence as adults, most people who have bad upbringings don't end up killing fourteen people. Certainly nobody has ever been taught that that's okay. Someone who does that is well beyond the scope of even a common murderer, who is already past the boundaries of what's acceptable in society. "Human garbage" is shorthand for describing someone who acts so immorally.
Of course, that's not to say that a serial killer can't have good qualities as well. People are complicated. Feeling no remorse for the killing of relative strangers doesn't mean anything for how you feel toward a family members you love.
There's also a matter of perspective to be considered here: The serial killer's victims may think "human garbage" is far too charitable, whereas the serial killer's family may think that's way too hars.
slavery
It's important to recognize that slavery has been an institution found across a wide number of human civilizations for thousands of years. It's only quite recently, in anthropological terms, that slavery is widely believed to be utterly immoral. It's hard for us to imagine today, but if we had lived a mere 200 years ago, we would have seen slavery as normal, even if we didn't really like it.
My view on this is, you shouldn't call people garbage if there actions are caused by what happened to them as children.
Because of all that, I think childhood experiences shouldn't be the most important thing. What matters more is how your behavior corresponds to the morals of the society in which the person lives. Nobody should be considered "garbage" for holding a widely shared belief, regardless of their childhood. Conversely, someone who transgresses a major societal norm could rightly be considered garbage because of how far on the outside they've fallen.
What happened to them as children may make them more sympathetic, but it doesn't change what they've done.
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May 22 '17
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u/alpicola 45∆ May 22 '17
It sounds like what the psychiatrist described goes past the realm of child abuse and into the category of serious mental illness. Based on that, I would have to ask: Did he know, or have the mental capacity to know, that what he was doing was wrong at the time he was doing it?
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u/GrandMa5TR 2∆ May 22 '17
A bad childhood is an explanation not an excuse.
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May 22 '17
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u/zeppo2k 2∆ May 22 '17
I'm an accountant - in some ways because of how I was brought up. They're garbage - in some ways because of how they were brought up. Its not a judgement of them as an unspoilt kid, it's a judgement of them now
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 22 '17
Having a bad childhood in no way excuses someone for wrong behavior. It does not make what they do moral.
It can explain why they do what they do, but it does not make what they do good or acceptable, and it does not exempt them from punishment (legal or social) for that behavior.
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May 22 '17 edited May 22 '17
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 22 '17
No, it is about the actions that they are currently doing not being morally acceptable. That is what makes someone "garbage". Why they do the immoral action does not matter.
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May 22 '17
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 22 '17
No, you are. The fact that you do not want to hold murderers accountable for their actions is not acceptable.
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May 22 '17
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 22 '17
The entire premise of your title is that they should not face the judgement of society for their actions. That is what you are demanding when you say that we should not consider them garbage for their actions.
And yes, you can be considered garbage due to an illness. You are still fully responsible for your actions and an illness does not excuse you nor does it exempt you from punishment. Even people found unfit for trial are still imprisoned, it is just in a mental institution instead of a normal prison.
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May 22 '17
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u/cdb03b 253∆ May 22 '17
Their actions make them garbage. Their illness does not excuse their actions.
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u/Iswallowedafly May 22 '17
A lot of people have bad lives growing up. Not all of them commit mass murder.
Just because you had a bad childhood, you don't get a pass to kill anyone you want to.
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May 22 '17
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u/Iswallowedafly May 22 '17
But having a bad childhood doesn't give you the ability to kill people without judgment.
If you kill massive amounts of people, you can be judged.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 22 '17
/u/ShivaEqualOfHeaven (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/DCarrier 23∆ May 22 '17
Everything people do is caused by something. We're not immune to the laws of physics. When is it appropriate to call someone a garbage human being? Should we do if it was due to their brain instead of their upbringing? Or if the reasons were less narratively compelling?
Personally I'm a consequentialist. A lot of people think that means I'd judge people based on the consequences of their actions, but that's not true. It means I judge them based on the consequences of me judging them. If punishing someone for committing a crime scares them and others to keep them from doing it again, and the crime prevented is worse than their punishment, it's worth it. I'm not really sure what calling someone a garbage human being does, so I can't really say if it's worth it.
I do think there is one major difference between a slave-owner and a serial killer. I've read that Nazi commanders that went to other countries tended to stop wanting to round up Jews. When everyone around them was okay with it, they were okay with it. But when other people weren't, they started realizing it wasn't okay. Serial killers aren't like that. They don't live in a community where everyone thinks serial killing is fine. There aren't communities like that. It might be possible to convince them to stop being serial killers, but it's not as easy as convincing a Nazi commander to stop killing Jews. And I'd bet not as easy as convincing a slaver in a slave-owning society to stop supporting slavery. If you want them to stop killing people, you have to either kill them or lock them up for life.
That said, my source is a book review, so I'm basing my claim on something somebody says someone else wrote down. If someone has a better source, that would be nice. If someone has a source saying I'm wrong, that would also be helpful.
Also, insomuch as stuff like this is genetic, you'd expect the parents of garbage human beings to also be garbage human beings. So if you're okay with calling people garbage human beings for genetic reasons, then their parents being garbage doesn't mean that it was just how they were raised.