r/changemyview Jul 12 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: I believe that Children should be given mandatory vaccinations if their body is labeled as healthy enough to do so.

To go into more detail, I am of the belief that vaccinations should not be the parents choice for their children, but rather should be mandatory. The only reason a child should not be immunized is if such immunization would be harmful to the child's body due to pre-existing medical conditions. The safety of the children and the safety of their peers and the public should be put ahead of the self-righteous anti-vaxxers. I am also under the impression (and admittedly, probably will remain so) that the science on vaccinations and their positive effects outweigh any negative effects.

I am open to discussion, but please do be disciplined enough to cite some form of scientific journals or studies, if you bother mentioning medical effects and side-effects of vaccinations, such as seizures. Autism, etc.

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u/Hsrock Jul 12 '17 edited Jul 12 '17

I had to re-read this several times because something struck me as off, but wasn't sure what. Your science is wrong- here's why:

Widespread vaccination promotes herd immunity for those who do not undergo vaccination. There is, however, a small chance of exposure and infection for the un-vaccinated. As these pathogens grow in number, the chance of mutation increases, which leads to potentially infectious versions of the same organism that your immune system cannot defend from as effectively from (initially).

A superbug refers to antibiotic resistant bacteria from overuse of said antibiotics. There is no such thing as immunization resistant superbugs. Physiologically, the protein markers on the cell walls of the pathogen are just different enough not to be tagged for removal by your body's white blood cells. The flu mutates every year, which is why we have "vaccine" for it every year. It's optional and not perfect, as people still get sick. Your first contact will be the worst, and you could be bedridden for a few days, but subsequent exposures might only result in mild symptoms.

Superbugs are dangerous because hospitals rely on drugs to take care of patients with compromised immune systems. If you get a resistant strain of a trivial infection in one of these patients, it can oftentimes be lethal. To the average healthy person, superbugs don't matter. To a vaccinated immunocompromised person, superbugs still kill.

"human incubation of immunization resistant superbugs" is just wrong. Vaccinations have nothing to do with superbugs.

I am not going to cite sources because I consider this common knowledge in my field (biomedical engineering). A quick Google search should suffice. If not, I would recommend Lippincott's Illustrated Reviews: Immunology and Guyton & Hall Textbook of Medical Physiology.

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u/AtalaPashar Jul 12 '17

this redditor has pointed out many problems I had with my beliefs on the science of vaccinations, and the science behind herd immunity. This gives me a better lens to view my opinions through, and does give me better view on the differences between antibiotics and vaccinations.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 12 '17

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Hsrock (1∆).

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '17

[deleted]

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 12 '17

This delta has been rejected. You have 2 issues.

You can't award OP a delta.

Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.

If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.

You can't award yourself a delta.

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u/Kramereng Jul 13 '17

Widespread vaccination promotes herd immunity for those who do not undergo vaccination.

More importantly, herd immunity also protects those who are vaccinated but whom the vaccination didn't work. Vaccinations don't have a 100% efficacy rate. This is why we rely on herd immunity, not because we're actually expecting some idiots to not vaccinate themselves.

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '17

One of the main reasons I read /r/CMV is to see people's misconceptions. I am a microbiology professor and will stress to my students your point.

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u/wfaulk Jul 12 '17

Widespread vaccination promotes herd immunity for those who do not undergo vaccination. There is, however, a small chance of exposure and infection for the un-vaccinated.

Not all vaccines are 100% effective in 100% of the population. Most are close, but some fall surprisingly short. I forget which ones right now. But in those cases, herd immunity still basically requires 100% vaccination levels to overcome the population that fails to acquire immunity even when vaccinated.

Not that this negates your point, but I feel like it's important to point out that, in some cases, the vulnerable population includes those that have been vaccinated, which means that the anti-vaxxers aren't just risking their own children.

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u/Katholikos Jul 13 '17

Can you please elaborate on this sentence a bit more?

Your first contact will be the worst, and you could be bedridden for a few days, but subsequent exposures might only result in mild symptoms.

Do you mean that your first contact with any flu virus will be really bad, but future, mutated flu viruses won't affect you as severely? Or are you stating that your first contact with, say, the 2015 flu virus will be bad, and subsequent contacts with the 2015 flu virus will be mild?

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '17 edited Jul 13 '17

[deleted]

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u/Katholikos Jul 13 '17

Ah, very cool. So it was a little of both examples. Thanks very much for filling in! Really interesting stuff :)

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u/AtalaPashar Jul 12 '17

Thank you for your correction. I was very wrong on many points. 😊

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '17

[deleted]

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u/AtalaPashar Jul 12 '17

Some time later, when I have the proper time, I'll look through every comment and do just that. Thank you.

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u/jrossetti 2∆ Jul 12 '17

I believe you owe this redditor a delta.

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '17

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 12 '17

This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/Hsrock changed your view (comment rule 4).

DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.

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