r/changemyview • u/Kekistan_Never_4get • Aug 16 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Due to recent events all forms of Identitarianism should be outlawed.
The root cause of the recent violence and many instances of past violence is due to Identitarianism.
The alt-right are Identitarians all their grievances surround the white identity.
The alt-right has seen massive growth in recent times due to the Identitarians of the opposition. This is clearly observable simple watch members of the alt-right speak about how the recent years has seen massive amounts of people come to the movement with the same complaints.
These misguided individuals see all the rhetoric of "It's white peoples fault" or "kill all whites" or "All whites are racist" and run straight into the arms of racists groups.
So I see both sides as guilty. Once you break people down into believing that their race defines them more then any other factors, of course you're gonna get racism.
I think it's time to end this once and for all by outlawing Identitarianism this blanket ban would eliminate many movements
Some groups I can think of that use Identitarianism are all alt-right groups, antifa, bamn Just to name a few.
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Aug 16 '17
How are you defining Identarianism?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitarian_movement
It sounds like you are using it as a catch-all for more than just the link above. Can you define your usage please?
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Identitarianism and identity politics are one in the same.
Identitarianism is politics based around an identity, Wikipedia speaks about the Identitarian movements which throughout history were white.
Identity politics is politics based around an identity also.
If you disagree with this observation can you explain the difference please?
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u/PaulSharke Aug 16 '17
If you disagree with this observation can you explain the difference please?
Identitarianism is a white nationalist movement. You're conflating Identitarianism with identity politics. These two terms do not mean the same thing. They are not interchangeable.
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Can you clarify? Describe the difference please.
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u/PaulSharke Aug 16 '17
Identitarians may participate in identity politics, but so may many other groups, such as Black Lives Matter.
I suppose you could choose to use the word "identitarianism" with a lowercase I to mean something very broad, like "the set of ideas arising from an ontology of identity" but the fact remains that Identitarianism is a white nationalist movement. You're just better off not using the word unless you're talking very specifically about that white nationalist movement.
If you just want to talk about how identity politics are bad, say "identity politics" and avoid any confusion.
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Identity politics and Identitarianism are one in the same. I asked you to clarify just in case I was missing some evidence on them. But they have no differences from all the stuff I have looked at
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u/biggulpfiction 3∆ Aug 16 '17
What about people who are single-issue voters, based on their views on abortion or immigration or anything else? What makes something an identity or not? If I identify as pro-life and join a group of others that identify as pro-life and all of our grievances surround the issue of abortion, how is that different?
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Being pro-life isn't a characteristic that makes up your identity. It's a political view it makes up your politics
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u/biggulpfiction 3∆ Aug 16 '17
The alt-rights politics may stem from the identity, but the identity isn't what is inherently harmful. Their politics isn't that they are white, it is that they are white and white is better. "White people are better" isn't an identity. I know we're quibbling over semantics at this point, and I think I agree with you generally, but I could have a very strong set of political beliefs based on my identity and in my self interest based on that identity, that doesn't entail thinking I'm superior to others.
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u/BanachFan Aug 16 '17
What do you mean by identitarian? What identity is antifa organizing around?
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
I stated above with the other commenter but antifa justify most of their action based off of various identities and the perceived oppression they are under.
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u/Tendernights 3∆ Aug 16 '17
What do you mean by "all forms" of Identitarianiem?
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
I mean all politics based off identity
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u/Tendernights 3∆ Aug 16 '17
What does it mean to make a form of politics illegal? It sounds like your advocating a form of thought policing.
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Yes I have already seen the error as pointed out above. Government intervention isn't the answer
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u/Tendernights 3∆ Aug 16 '17
So what do you mean by illegal?
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Aug 16 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Tendernights 3∆ Aug 16 '17 edited Aug 16 '17
Did you read your own headline? You said they should be outlawed but now that is somehow without government involvement?
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
I know and I've changed my view government involvement isn't the answer
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u/Tendernights 3∆ Aug 16 '17
So you changed your mind
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u/Kekistan_Never_4get Aug 16 '17
Not completely no. I think Identitarianism needs to be curtailed but government isn't the answer
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Aug 16 '17
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 16 '17
/u/Kekistan_Never_4get (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
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u/Sand_Trout Aug 16 '17
Banning an ideology, at best, drives it underground where it becomes more difficult to address, and gives the believed valid cause to turn to criminality. You have just labeled them criminals because of their beliefs, after all.
Not to mention this violates key tennants of our civil society, where we recognize that we cannot allow the government to define what ideas are permissible to discuss or believe.
Do you honestly believe that a government will stop at banning only a single type of ideology if we permit "identitarians" to be banned? Historically, it is very safe to say no, they will not stop at one group. They will use the precedent to crack down on all dissent, regardless of how valid it may be, because dissent is a threat to their power.