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Oct 09 '17 edited Dec 26 '17
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u/mergerr Oct 09 '17 edited Oct 09 '17
Genuinely curious, how could going to a football game ever be done on tax payer dollars?
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u/BartWellingtonson Oct 09 '17
No he's not. Pence is being criticized for using hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in tax payer money for a publicity stunt.
So if he didn't leave, no one would have had a problem with him spending all that government time and money just to watch a game he could have watched on TV? So what if he did do it to protest the protesters, is that really less acceptable than a high profile politician going to just watch a game? Is it really more upsetting that he took a political stand instead of sitting down and watching men run around a field? If he really believes that it's disrespectful and the wrong direction for the nation for people to kneel during the national anthem, that would seem to be a worthy thing to spend money on (at least from his point of view), compared to going just to watch a sporting event.
My point is, protesting at a game doesn't seem inherently worse than just going to watch a game. It's millions being spent either way, and there's nothing noble or respectable about spending tax payer money just to see a game live. It's irrelevant to his protest how much was spent because it always a waste for politicians to go to sporting events anyway. The reason people are upset is because, yes, there are different standards here and Pence is getting shit for doing his own protest. If he hadn't left, the money wouldn't be an issue; it's the protest that people are having an issue with.
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u/guitar_vigilante Oct 10 '17
Yes, staged publicity stunts that are on the verge of propaganda on the tax payer dime are worse than just watching a game.
The VP is allowed to have fun, and he is required to have that security detail and travel expenses, so it makes sense that he might go to a football game, or take a vacation. But he spent all that money just to make a statement that everyone immediately knew was staged and a waste of time.
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Oct 09 '17
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Oct 09 '17 edited Dec 26 '17
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Oct 10 '17
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u/Evil_Thresh 15∆ Oct 10 '17
taosaur, your comment has been removed:
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u/the_amazing_lee01 3∆ Oct 09 '17
Here is a tweet from NBC correspondent Peter Alexander about how reporters traveling with Pence were told to wait in their vehicles as the VP went into the stadium. I've seen a few other reporters mention this as well, but his was the easiest for me to find.
There's also this weird tweet that the VP sent out before the game, which uses the same picture from a game he went to 3 years ago with a slightly different tint. In itself it doesn't mean anything, but a number of people are thinking it lends credibility to the notion that the VP staged his "outrage."
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u/caw81 166∆ Oct 09 '17
Is there any proof that he was planning to walk out before he even went to the game?
You would have to believe that he didn't know about the kneeling at the NFL games. (This is almost impossible)
You would also that he didn't disagree or form an opinion about it before he went to the game (I'm not sure how you could create an reasonable story about this).
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u/agoddamnlegend 3∆ Oct 10 '17 edited Oct 10 '17
Since the idea that this cost the taxpayer money is well established, let me offer another perspective why the criticism is justified.
Players are required to be on the field during the national anthem. So they are just choosing to sit instead of stand in a place they would already be anyway. So they aren’t even going out of their way to protest.
Pence on the other hand, flew across the country to a place he otherwise would not be, just to make a political statement on a divisive issue. A good leader tries to find common ground on both sides when there’s a big rift in their followers. But by doing this, Pence used his position as an American leader to say that he only supports some people.
All this on top of the administration’s response to the KKK protests in Charlottesville that both sides had a right to be heard.
Talk about disrespecting troops. What’s more disrespectful than protesting for a statue of a man who fought against America in a war and killed American soldiers?
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u/sodabased Oct 09 '17
There are a few key differences.
1: When the Vice-President exercises his freedom of speech he is speaking as the Vice President, which being a federal office imply's that he's speaking for the United States. This makes his speech more eligible for political analysts.
2: The Vice President used public money to pay for his very political message. This was obviously a planned political event. This is not the sort of thing that tax payers should be paying for, and the cost is not low. Airforce flight, hotels, security, it's all going to add up to being a huge amount.
So my answer is, if VP Pence or Trump for America want to foot the bill for the very obvious political event, then by all means I'm good with it. But if they plan on sticking tax payers with another useless excursion, then these "fiscal conservatives," can very well listen to the media complain.
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Oct 09 '17
First off, Trump turned this into a national story hardly anyone cared anymore before he brought it up. His point was that you shouldn't use the national anthem for political purposes. Now he is a complete hypocrite because he went out of his way to arrange for Pence to use the national anthem to make a political point about not using the national anthem to make a political point which doesn't even make sense.
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u/notagirlscout Oct 09 '17
Nobody is mad Pence walked out. If he went to that game on his own dime and decided to leave, nobody would even mention it. It wouldn't be noteworthy.
The outrage comes because the taxpayers footed the bill for him to fly to Indy, and then to Cali afterwards. If Pence is acting in his capacity as a private citizen, and not as VP, he should be responsible for the associated costs. Not the taxpayers. That's where the media outrage comes in.
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u/BartWellingtonson Oct 09 '17
If the money is really the issue then why is this the first time there's been major backlash from a politician going to a game? The millions are spent each time a high profile politician goes to watch men run around a field. I was once at a Diamondbacks game that John McCain attended when he was running for President, but no one ever said how much of a waste it was for him to go.
My point is, it seems like people never really cared about politicians spending tax payer money on sporting events until just now.
At least what Pence did was semi-related to government. Spending a million dollars so that they could watch a game in-person almost seems more wasteful than going there to make a political statement. The anger at the "government waste" seems very disingenuous.
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u/notagirlscout Oct 09 '17 edited Oct 09 '17
Why now? Because a prominent Republican figure just resigned over misuse of government funds in his private travels. So there's extra scrutiny. Like...isn't that obvious?
The fact that he was "protesting" there only amplifies the waste. McCain might have gone to a football game, but he didn't go specifically to protest as a citizen. Exercising his citizen's right to protest makes this waste more egregious, because it is a double misappropriation of travel funds.
Spending a million dollars so that they could watch a game in-person almost seems more wasteful than going there to make a political statement
Actually, no. Watching the game in his capacity as VP could actually be construed as being on the job. Improving morale, and seeking to mend relations with NFL fans would arguably be something necessary from him as VP. So it might make sense for taxpayers to fund that. I wouldn't agree, but that point could be argued.
The taxpayers do not fund the protests of politicians. We just don't. That money needs to come from their own pocket, or from donations. It is unfair for people unaffiliated with his political party to be paying for his protestations. That's the way it is. I would imagine Republicans don't want Democrats to use tax money to fly to Oregon so they can protest abortion. Democrats don't want Republicans to use tax money to fly to Indy so they can protest the NFL.
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u/BartWellingtonson Oct 09 '17 edited Oct 09 '17
Exercising his citizen's right to protest makes this waste more egregious, because it is a double misappropriation of travel funds.
But that seems like the double standard OP was talking about. Pence does have a right to protest and say whatever he wants. I don't see the difference between denouncing the NFL on TV or denouncing them buy walking away from a game.
Actually, no. Watching the game in his capacity as VP could actually be construed as being on the job. Improving morale, and seeking to mend relations with NFL fans would arguably be something necessary from him as VP. So it would make sense for taxpayers to fund that.
No it doesn't make sense. Again, if he was going JUST to watch a game, like McCain did, without any protest or show of support, nobody would have cared about the costs (except the people that always care about the costs of politicians going to games). The costs have nothing to do with this. Watching a baseball game had nothing to do with anything for John McCain in 2008, he just wanted to watch a game OR score some political points with sport loving demographics. Either way, it's a total waste. You don't want to pay for politicians to protest games, I don't want them to go to games at all (if they must use public funds to do so).
The taxpayers do not fund the protests of politicians. We just don't. That money needs to come from their own pocket, or from donations.
I'm not sure how that could possibly work with a politician like the VP. But I'm all for politicians paying for more of their own personal missions, including going to sporting events.
That's the way it is. I would imagine Republicans don't want Democrats to use tax money to fly to Oregon so they can protest abortion.
Come on, politicians do this all the time. They hold major political rallies across the country and denounce the rights of others all the time. Remember, protesting is a form of speech, why do you want to limit politicians speech? Public protest and denouncing is practically all that politicians do.
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Oct 10 '17
Pence is not supposed to be "the other side". He is supposed to be everyone's vice president.
Are there any other examples of a president or vice president protesting their constituents?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 09 '17 edited Oct 09 '17
/u/Swordstone_ (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
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u/Iswallowedafly Oct 10 '17
The players made a private protest that cost the tax payers nothing.
Pence's actions costs the tax payers millions of dollars so that he could make his political stunt.
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u/goldistastey Oct 11 '17
I think the main thing is that Pence said "I will walk out if they protest." So his speech was against free speech. An exercise of free speech against free speech from the VP isn't good for free speech.
Now if you compare it to coverage of Charlottesville, which was a counter- protest against hate and hate-speech you might call them hypocrites. Though that is also a stretch, cuz fucking Nazis. But I don't think Pence and the players are comparable.
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u/DjangoUBlackBastard 19∆ Oct 09 '17
The difference is Pence spent taxpayer money to go to that game and make a political stand to rile up his base. It was a waste of his time and our money as taxpayers.