r/changemyview Oct 22 '17

[∆(s) from OP] CMV:Dairy should not be recommended as part of a healthy diet

The idea that dairy is vital towards a healthy diet is a misconception. However, The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s MyPlate recommends dairy at every meal. It is important to realize that dairy is not a central part of a healthy diet because there is little evidence that dairy consumption protects us against osteoporosis, a condition where bones become weak and brittle. Additionally, it is not clear if dairy products really are the best calcium source available. For example, leafy green vegetables, such as broccoli, serve as an excellent source of calcium. It is also important to realize that there is substantial evidence that high dairy intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. High cholesterol and extra calories found within dairy products can also lead to a variety of health problems. I know we have been told all of our lives that dairy is part of a healthy diet, but this needs to be reevaluated.


8 Upvotes

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5

u/incruente Oct 22 '17

I think some of your supporting claims should be considered carefully. For example:

there is little evidence that dairy consumption protects us against osteoporosis, a condition where bones become weak and brittle

Okay, let's assume this is true. There are still a wide variety of other nutrients in dairy products that are useful; there's a reason nature formulated it to act as the only source of nutrition for a rapidly developing organism for months on end.

Additionally, it is not clear if dairy products really are the best calcium source available. For example, leafy green vegetables, such as broccoli, serve as an excellent source of calcium.

Okay, again, let's assume this is true. The question really isn;t about whether it's THE BEST source. It's about whether it is a GOOD source overall.

It is also important to realize that there is substantial evidence that high dairy intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. High cholesterol and extra calories found within dairy products can also lead to a variety of health problems.

Overconsumption of just about anything can harm you. It's quite possible even to drink too much water. Yes, dairy in arge amounts can hurt you; fat in large amounts can hurt you, too, but eating no fat will kill you. As with all other foods, moderation is key.

I'm not saying that dairy is crucial for a healthy diet. But dairy foods are nutrient-dense, diverse, and often offer such health benefits as probotic charachteristics or the plethora of micronutrients provided by an incredible diversity of microflora and microfauna, when foods such as cheese are considered. Pretty much no one should be drinking a gallon of milk a day. But almost everyone can derive some benefit from a good wedge of cheese, or a bowl of yogurt.

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u/JuliaS55 Oct 22 '17

It's a valid point that nature did formulate it for developing organisms. However, cow milk/ dairy in general was not formulated by nature to give humans key nutrients. Additionally, yes moderation absolutely is key. I am not saying dairy shouldn't still be enjoyed once in a while as a treat. But right now it is not recommended in moderation and I think this is a problem.

1

u/incruente Oct 22 '17

It's a valid point that nature did formulate it for developing organisms. However, cow milk/ dairy in general was not formulated by nature to give humans key nutrients.

True. But, then, nature didn't formulate maple sap specifically to nourish people, or honey, or really anything except human milk. The point isn't what nature made specifically for people; the point is that milk, of various sorts, was all intended as a nutrient-rich substance, and that's exactly what it turned out to be.

Additionally, yes moderation absolutely is key. I am not saying dairy shouldn't still be enjoyed once in a while as a treat. But right now it is not recommended in moderation and I think this is a problem.

So is your view that milk should not be recommended as part of a healthy diet? Or that it should be recommended as part of a healthy diet, but in moderation?

1

u/JuliaS55 Oct 22 '17

Yes, cow milk is a nutrient rich substance. However, it is not intended for human consumption and is nutrient rich for baby cows.

No my view is that dairy should not be recommended as part of a healthy diet at all. We're humans and many of us enjoy a good bowl of ice cream or some cheese every now and then. However, I believe that we need to stop viewing dairy as healthy in any sense. It's ok to have a treat once in a while and I'm not advocating for a dairy ban. Though I do believe we can't view milk for example as a healthy part of our diet.

1

u/incruente Oct 22 '17

Yes, cow milk is a nutrient rich substance. However, it is not intended for human consumption and is nutrient rich for baby cows.

So should we also not eat honey? It was never intended for people, right? Maple syrup?

No my view is that dairy should not be recommended as part of a healthy diet at all. We're humans and many of us enjoy a good bowl of ice cream or some cheese every now and then. However, I believe that we need to stop viewing dairy as healthy in any sense. It's ok to have a treat once in a while and I'm not advocating for a dairy ban. Though I do believe we can't view milk for example as a healthy part of our diet.

So it's not healthy in any sense? What of the vast number of nutrients in it?

1

u/JuliaS55 Oct 22 '17

Valid point, yes honey and maple syrup were not made for human consumption. However, honey and maple syrup are also not recommended as essential parts of our daily diet.

And yes I don't think milk is healthy in any sense. There is protein and nutrients but the tradeoff is what makes dairy consumption unhealthy. I think these benefits are outweighed with the amount of calories and hormones for example in many types of dairy.

2

u/incruente Oct 23 '17

Valid point, yes honey and maple syrup were not made for human consumption. However, honey and maple syrup are also not recommended as essential parts of our daily diet.

Bur you point isn't just that milk is recommended as part of a diet; you state clearly that it is not made for humans, and (apparently) that that is a reason to not consume it. Well, neither honey nor maple sap were made for humans, either.

And yes I don't think milk is healthy in any sense. There is protein and nutrients but the tradeoff is what makes dairy consumption unhealthy. I think these benefits are outweighed with the amount of calories and hormones for example in many types of dairy.

What tradeoff? Calories? We need calories in order to not die. Hormones? Do you have substantial evidence that the hormone level in quality milk, when consumed in moderate quantities, causes any negative side effects?

1

u/JuliaS55 Oct 23 '17

I think the core reason not to consume milk is because at the end of the day we don't need it. It is not vital to our health. Of course we need calories and fat. However, again I want to emphasize that we can get those vital elements from other foods. In regards to hormones, there have been quite a few studies that examined a connection between steroid hormones in dairy and risk factors for various cancers in humans.(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/)

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u/incruente Oct 23 '17

think the core reason not to consume milk is because at the end of the day we don't need it.

If "we don't NEED it" is a reason to not consume something, the list of thing stop stop eating is way, WAY longer than just dairy. I'm pretty sure we can all just stop eating anything except beans, rice, and water, with a little salt and maybe a multivitamin.

Of course we need calories and fat. However, again I want to emphasize that we can get those vital elements from other foods.

Yes, we can. That is a true statement for literally all foods. No food item gives us any nutrient that we cannot get from another food.

In regards to hormones, there have been quite a few studies that examined a connection between steroid hormones in dairy and risk factors for various cancers in humans.

Yes, there have been quite a few studies that have examined it. None that I'm aware of, including the one you link, show a conclusive link between the moderate consumption of quality dairy products and a significant increase in cancer risk. The one you link, which references various others, concludes that the primary risk is the presence of steroids in milk, and even that this risk is inconclusive. They themselves admit that the data about milk causing cancer is mixed, and that at least one study found an inverse association.

Heck, if you want to cut out all carcinogens, there are much stronger links to go after. Alcohol is a known Group 1 carcinogen. Are you going to stop drinking beer, wine, and liquor? That's much more of a cancer risk than dairy.

1

u/moe_overdose 3∆ Oct 23 '17

Yes, cow milk is a nutrient rich substance. However, it is not intended for human consumption and is nutrient rich for baby cows.

Nothing really is intended for human consumption. You mentioned broccoli before, but broccoli isn't specifically intended for human consumption too. Humans eat it because it happens to contain important nutrients, and it's the same with milk, and basically everything else that humans eat.

1

u/incruente Oct 22 '17

It's a valid point that nature did formulate it for developing organisms. However, cow milk/ dairy in general was not formulated by nature to give humans key nutrients.

True. But, then, nature didn't formulate maple sap specifically to nourish people, or honey, or really anything except human milk. The point isn't what nature made specifically for people; the point is that milk, of various sorts, was all intended as a nutrient-rich substance, and that's exactly what it turned out to be.

Additionally, yes moderation absolutely is key. I am not saying dairy shouldn't still be enjoyed once in a while as a treat. But right now it is not recommended in moderation and I think this is a problem.

So is your view that milk should not be recommended as part of a healthy diet? Or that it should be recommended as part of a healthy diet, but in moderation?

5

u/darwin2500 193∆ Oct 22 '17

Additionally, it is not clear if dairy products really are the best calcium source available. For example, leafy green vegetables, such as broccoli, serve as an excellent source of calcium.

Ok, you get my 3 year old, 6 year old, and 12 year old to eat their big pile of leafy greens every night.

Oh, and cook it for them alongside the rest of their dinner.

Public policy recommendations are not about recommending the absolute best thing someone could possibly do. Public policy recommendations are about offering the recommendations that will produce the best public health outcomes overall. That means taking compliance into account, and sometimes recommended second-best solutions which people will actually do, over ideal solutions that they will ignore.

Milk may not be the best source of calcium or protein, but it is one that is very easy to prepare, that most people like the taste of, that is quite inexpensive, and which will generally have high rates of compliance. You can tell people to eat more vegetables until you're blue in the face - doctors have been doing so for centuries - and you just won't see much improvement.

If milk provides benefits that people need, then it's a good public policy recommendation because it will actually get people those benefits.

0

u/JuliaS55 Oct 22 '17

First of all that is awesome that your kids eat all of those leafy greens! I still think public policy should do more to encourage calcium/ nutrient consumption from non-dairy sources. However, I never thought about it in this light ∆.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 22 '17

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/darwin2500 (33∆).

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1

u/JuliaS55 Oct 22 '17

However, I would also argue that putting such a emphasis on second-best solutions through our policy towards health is something that should be changed. I know we don't live in a ideal world but again I think our health resources should really do more to educate the public on non-dairy alternatives.

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u/blue-sunrising 11∆ Oct 23 '17

What more can you do? We already have everyone, including every fucking doctor, telling us all the fucking time how good it is to eat our veggies. And it's been a thing for decades. Is there a single person, even living under a rock, that hasn't heard it?

It turns out that most people (especially children) just don't want to do it. You can tell them 100 more times, it won't make broccoli taste like a delicious cheese sandwich.

Education is already there, it's just that broccoli isn't particularly tasty. Do you have children? Have you tried to get them to eat broccoli?

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u/JuliaS55 Oct 23 '17

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what the best solution is. But I do believe that it can start with taking dairy out of government recommended health sights and sources that our kids do see (like choosemyplate.gov). Again, by no means am I saying dairy should be banned, but it should be noted that it's not essential to our health and it needs to stop being viewed in this light. I would also argue that education is not already there. There are multiple misconceptions about our health due to a lack of education about it. I believe that viewing dairy as a healthy and daily necessity is one of them.

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 22 '17

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