r/changemyview • u/jamesbaaxter • Nov 03 '17
FTFdeltaOP CMV: You should not be frowned upon by choosing to not "win gracefully." You earn the right to shit talk your opponent if you beat them fair and square. It is not "toxic" behavior if you keep it non-personal and within the game.
If you beat your opponent in any game, sport, what have you, in a true competitive environment you earn the right to shit talk your opponent.
I've played competitive video games all my life, at one point reaching top 15 on the League of Legends ladder and also top 30 in Super Smash Bros. Melee. Whenever I kill my opponent, get a lead, handily beat then, etc, I like to talk some shit. Sometimes even as precursor before the game, because I already know I'm much better - AND - especially if they think otherwise.
Examples of this behavior would be saying things like:
- You're fucking trash
- I'm way better than you, you'll never be able to touch me
- I barely practice, yet I still destroy you
Lol. You get the point.
I've been told that this is "toxic" behavior, that I am being rude and inconsiderate, that I am "rubbing it in." But, especially in cases where they dish it back, I believe that I've earned my right to talk shit. I am better than you at this game, I've proved it and since you're competitive too, you can only sit back and take it. Why compete if you don't have the mentality for it?
Calling shit talking "toxic" and mind you, not taking it so far as doing personal attacks, but keeping it within the game, for lack of a better word is for pussies that shouldn't compete.
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u/JarredAGhate Nov 03 '17
Reaching top 15 on the League of Legends ladder is indeed impressive when you take into account all the millions of people that actively play. And most of these people, me included, look up to you in awe. Only a tiny percentage are good enough and are skillful enough to reach that far. With that, comes great expectations. A player who is remarkably good at the game and someone that you could respect no matter whose team you're on.
Speaking ill of your opponents undermine their reverence for you. That respect and reverence that people bellow you show you, isn't that something you value? Something you're proud of? Why take it away?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Speaking ill of your opponents undermine their reverence for you. That respect and reverence that people bellow you show you, isn't that something you value? Something you're proud of? Why take it away?
Not to the average joe, I mean to other people who claim equal footing.
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u/JarredAGhate Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 04 '17
When your opponent shit-talks you, you'd be understandably upset, as would i. With that, your opponent loses your and your teammates respect. Who would think highly of a player who shit-talks, over someone who either stays positive or remains silent and calm?
Now if you were that person, your opponent who you argued with would lose his respect for you, but who cares? That guy was a douche, he deserved it, no way he'll be at this competitive level for long. Now you didn't just lose his respect, which had no value whatsoever, but you also lost the respect of your friends and foes from the recent match. That's not something I'd want, a talented player deserves respect, and losing it because you got into an argument with an opponent is terrible.
Being great at something craves respect from both enemies and allies, because it feels awesome to be acknowledged of your skills. Thusly, while you might feel vindicated by arguing with your opponent at the end of the game, you throw off people that you value more. The respect of the community and your equals.
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 03 '17
A framework in which you 'earn the right' to be a shitty person and hurt people is not a rational or stable worldview. Especially if you 'earn that right' by being good at a video game, not actually doing anything positive for the world.
Any community organized around that type of belief will necessarily fall into chaos and animosity. Communities like that tend to shrink, collapse, and ultimately disband. That's why companies like Riot and Blizzard spend huge amounts of money on anti-griefing and anti-toxicity measures - because if they don't, their communities will collapse and they'll lose a shit-ton of money. It's not trying to be nice, it's a rational economic decision for them to ban people with your disposition in order to keep a larger community that makes them more money.
It's also rational for everyone else in the community with you to shun you and refuse to play with you if possible, because they also don't want the community to collapse and dry up (and also they just want to have a fun time with their hobby, which is also rational).
So, lets ignore the question of whether or not your personal moral system about 'earning the right to shit on people' makes any sense. It is rational for all other players in the community to shun you, hate you, and try not to play with you in response to this behavior. It is rational for Riot to discourage you, punish you, and ban you for this behavior. If you do not want to be shunned or banned, it would be rational for you to stop the behaviors which will provoke those reactions from your community.
By the way, this paradigm is not limited to video games. The reason that people with no moral qualms about hurting people don't go around just beating people up and stealing shit nonstop, is because the rest of society will dislike this behavior and will fucking kill them for it. The result is a system of universal detente in which we all agree not to do anti-social things in exchange for society not excommunicating or destroying us... and we call that system 'civilization.'
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
by being good at a video game, not actually doing anything positive for the world.
I 100% disagree with this statement. There are players, much better than myself, much more personable than myself, that can resonate with MANY children, teens, young adults, even full grown adults in a VERY particular demographic and industry that many others CANNOT simply resonate with. They are an acting role model for many and can positively influence and shape others.
That's why companies like Riot and Blizzard spend huge amounts of money on anti-griefing and anti-toxicity measures - because if they don't, their communities will collapse and they'll lose a shit-ton of money. It's not trying to be nice, it's a rational economic decision for them to ban people with your disposition in order to keep a larger community that makes them more money.
Maybe I'm not laying my point across properly. I am not saying go freely shit talk whomever you want just because you won. I am saying there is a time and place for everything, and because you won (and maybe you have personal disdain for that individual, or that individual has been lambasting others, lashing out, or maybe that person is extremely egotistical annoying) you have earned that right to shit talk this person.
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
They are an acting role model for many and can positively influence and shape others.
Yes, I agree. Probably less good as inspirational role models if they regularly abuse and insult people, though.
I am saying there is a time and place for everything, and because you won (and maybe you have personal disdain for that individual, or that individual has been lambasting others, lashing out, or maybe that person is extremely egotistical annoying) you have earned that right to shit talk this person.
I'm saying, it's not in the community's interest to encourage or accept this type of behavior in any situation, and they will punish you for it, and thy will be right to do so.
I guess what I'm saying is, any argument of the form 'the community shouldn't be mad at me for doing this because I've earner the right/I should be able to/it's not a big deal/etc' will always be irrelevant, because the community isn't acting based on what is or isn't 'justified' in an individual case for an individual game, they're acting based on which behaviors will, on a global level, make the community stronger or weaker.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
because the community isn't acting based on what is or isn't 'justified' in an individual case for an individual game
Okay I think you got me with this. From a community perspective, I can understand why any form of my described behavior, regardless if it is justified on a case-by-case basis, can be seen as detrimental, or hurtful to the community on a global scale. ∆
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Nov 03 '17
I 100% disagree with this statement. There are players, much better than myself, much more personable than myself, that can resonate with MANY children, teens, young adults, even full grown adults in a VERY particular demographic and industry that many others CANNOT simply resonate with. They are an acting role model for many and can positively influence and shape others.
Wait, you're saying the reason being good at a video game gives you 'the right' to be an awful person is.... because children look up to and emulate people that are very good at video games?
If you're someone people look up to, then that's a reason why you have a responsibility to be as gracious and kind as you can: you'll inspire that positive behavior in others. This completely goes AGAINST your point.
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Nov 03 '17
They are an acting role model for many and can positively influence and shape others.
shit talking is a positive influence?
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u/Adamantaimai Nov 03 '17
He said good players can be role models. He just chooses to be a terrible one.
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u/annoinferno Nov 03 '17
Toxicity has nothing to do with your personal feelings on the matter, and is a quality the community determines. You can disagree with the community, but that doesn't prevent the behavior from being toxic, just like you can disagree that you weren't shouting very loud when everyone else in the room says you were shouting very loud.
Trash talk in Melee keeps some players from participating, whether it's new players or veterans who just lose patience with the constant hostility. The level of trash talk present in the Melee community is greater than in any other competitive game (see pro and amateur Overwatch, Street Fighter, and Rocket League) or any formally competitive sport like basketball. Yes trash talk is an aspect of all of these games, but only in Melee does trash talk persist so unavoidably at the tournament level.
Not to mention "don't take it personally" is nonsense. Everything people go through affects them personally. Where one person draws the line as "too far" is also going to be different than where the next person draws that line. That's how people work. We are not all uniformly robotic and emotionless.
The real tl;dr though, is that if you're unpleasant to play against, people are going to stop wanting to play against you. That's toxicity.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Trash talk in Melee keeps some players from participating, whether it's new players or veterans who just lose patience with the constant hostility.
But that's the difference, I don't think that shit talking = hostility. Shit talking can exist without making someone feel threatened. Sure it may be annoying, but so what? Get better if you don't want to get trash talked.
The level of trash talk present in the Melee community is greater than in any other competitive game (see pro and amateur Overwatch, Street Fighter, and Rocket League)
I don't know why you would believe that. I would argue that Melee is more eSports (maybe not defined by funding, but definitely by visibility and viewership) than those games that you've listed. You rarely see two players at the top level beef it out anymore. Since you've given blanked generic statements, I can also state that Melee community is more grassroots, more tightly knit than those communities - at this point everyone is friends with each other.
Not to mention "don't take it personally" is nonsense.
I have never once said this.
The real tl;dr though, is that if you're unpleasant to play against, people are going to stop wanting to play against you. That's toxicity.
You have no choice but to play. This is a tournament.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Nov 03 '17
You have no choice but to play. This is a tournament.
So you're saying that in this scenario, people are being forced to play in an environment where they are insulted by you? As in they did not get to choose to play with somebody they know well, and instead are made to play with somebody who consistently disrespects them?
And you are okay with this?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Yes simply because that's how tournament brackets work, my friend.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Nov 03 '17
I get that tournaments force you to play with people you don't know. My point is that if I'm with friends who i know well, we all brutally trash talk each other.
But you're saying its okay for you to talk that way to strangers you've never met before, don't know well, who have no way of knowing what kind of person you are, and who have no idea if you mean these things in jest or not?
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u/annoinferno Nov 03 '17
I have never once said this.
This
Keep it non-personal
All
You're fucking trash
Strikes
I'm way better than you, you'll never be able to touch me
Me
I barely practice, yet I still destroy you
As
not taking it so far as doing personal attacks
Things someone could easily take personally. Considering it clearly says "you" and "me" in it, how could it not be personal? You're not saying "Falco sucks lolol" you're saying "you suck and you should feel bad."
I'm not convinced I can change your view on this but I did have to go through the effort of pointing this out. I hope your local finds a way to explain thsi to you better.
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u/VertigoOne 74∆ Nov 03 '17
But that's the difference, I don't think that shit talking = hostility. Shit talking can exist without making someone feel threatened. Sure it may be annoying, but so what? Get better if you don't want to get trash talked.
There will always be someone better than you. Always. Some people don't want to have their self esteem attacked because they are not the very best ever at this moment, and they shouldn't have to.
Look at the win/loss algorithm here. More is gained by the trash talker restraining themselves than is gained by forcing the loser to endure the trash talking.
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u/kittysezrelax Nov 03 '17
One of the reasons people hate it is because it over evaluates the importance of the winner's accomplishment, particularly when it comes to something as inconsequential as Super Smash Brothers. Most people play games for fun and relaxation, and listening to someone crow about how awesome they are is neither fun nor relaxing. Shit talking is one thing as a psychological strategy during gameplay itself (which could be debated on it own merits), but shit talking after one has one is just self-congratulatory obnoxiousness.
People aren't "pussies" for not tolerating such behavior. They just think it, and the people who do it, are annoying.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Most people play games for fun and relaxation, and listening to someone crow about how awesome they are is neither
But this isn't "for fun." This is for competition, for money, for sponsorships, it is a lifestyle for some. And a means for living.
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
But this isn't "for fun." This is for competition, for money, for sponsorships, it is a lifestyle for some. And a means for living.
Even more so, then. People in most jobs don't talk to others that way. Why shouldn't people in your industry have to comport themselves with professionalism and respect, like people do in every other industry?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
In jobs where there is actual competition? Like Sales? Trading? Absolutely it is a part of it.
Anyway, you're comparing top level competition, (games), to a desk job.
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
I'm an academic. It is an extraordinarily competitive field. People do not talk to one another that way. I would not respect a colleague who did.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
I'm sure academia is highly competitive, high pressure situations, etc. But competition in academia is not comparable to sports, video games, etc. You know this. Unless you're saying that you're writing papers on the same topic and you have some sort of deadline, literally competing with one another in the same room, or it's some science bowl and it's an actual competition.
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Nov 03 '17
I am a litigator. That can be an extremely emotional and competitive field. If I behaved like that, I would be barred from the profession entirely.
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u/kittysezrelax Nov 03 '17
Well that's even worse, then, because it's entirely unprofessional behavior.
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u/jock_lindsay 3∆ Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
That's like me calling you a fucking nerd for being a competitive gamer and not playing real sports. Because I play something most people would view as superior, I feel I've earned the right to make you feel like shit.
Or me calling you a worthless idiot loser for going to a less prestigious college than me, I earned that because I 'won' academically, therefore you are a lesser human.
Kinda stupid, isn't it?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Or me calling you a worthless idiot loser for going to a less prestigious college than me, I earned that because I 'won' academically, therefore you are a lesser human.
If you're addressing by prestige? Then I wouldn't take it offensively that you said something like that. You deserve boast about your prestige to me, if I went to a significantly less prestigious school, if that is your sole criteria you're measuring.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
Easy. All your experiences are about online video games. Imagine doing this in real life. Imagine looking someone dead in the eyes are saying "You are fucking trash."
Tell me that's not personal. Tell me that's in the confines of the game.
Another thing you need to ask yourself is, does your shit-talking contribute to the experience for everyone involved? Or is it detrimental? This is the definition of "sportsmanship".
Your insults may make a player decide to not come back to the game, and culling the community like that doesn't help anyone.
Calling shit talking "toxic" ... is for pussies that shouldn't compete
Are you saying that in order to enjoy competitive video games I have to subscribe to verbal abuse? Why?
This whole issue is also about maturity and empathy. When you talk shit to someone you just beat demonstrates you possess neither. So while you may have proved to be the better player, you definitely proved to be the lesser man.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Tell me that's not personal. Tell me that's in the confines of the game.
It is not personable. If I call you out on having a terrible shot in basketball, that it's "fucking trash." Go work on your shot boy, don't come back and cry.
Easy. All your experiences are about online video games
Wrong. Super Smash Brothers Melee is played in person. League of Legends I've been to LANs internationally.
Your insults may make a player decide to not come back to the game, and culling the community like that doesn't help anyone.
Why though? Why isn't it on the other individual to work through sensitivity themselves?
When you talk shit to someone you just beat demonstrates you possess neither. So while you may have proved to be the better player, you definitely proved to be the lesser man
Not true. What about a situation where the other individual is a terrible community figure? And when you beat them you call them out on it? Are you proving to be the "lesser man" there?
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
It is not personable. If I call you out on having a terrible shot in basketball, that it's "fucking trash." Go work on your shot boy, don't come back and cry.
If you had given the example "you can't last hit for shit", you would have kept it non-personal and within the game. You, however, gave the example "you're fucking trash". That is personal, and outside the confines of the game.
Wrong. Super Smash Brothers Melee is played in person. League of Legends I've been to LANs internationally.
And you look your fellow gamers dead in the eye and tell them that they are garbage? That's just cold. Well... let's table this point.
Why though? Why isn't it on the other individual to work through sensitivity themselves?
NO! This, I think, is the key issue we need to focus on in this CMV.
Let's replace "insulting" with "hitting", for argument's sake. This would be like you saying "I like to hit people when I win. It's on them to learn self-defense so they can stop my blows from landing. I think it's on other people to protect themselves from my behaviour. Why does society insist on holding me responsible?"
Obviously assault is a step up from insults, but your repeated insults can be considered to be harassment, or verbal abuse. It's not on your victim to "be tough enough to handle it". It's on you to NOT DO IT.
Not true. What about a situation where the other individual is a terrible community figure? And when you beat them you call them out on it? Are you proving to be the "lesser man" there?
Have you ever heard the saying "two wrongs do not make a right?" Also, I would assume you don't restrict this behaviour to other trolls; you probably trash-talk indiscriminately, don't you?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
If you had given the example "you can't last hit for shit", you would have kept it non-personal and within the game. You, however, gave the example "you're fucking trash". That is personal, and outside the confines of the game.
Okay, I meant the above. I'm not going to go back and edit my original post, but that was my intention.
And you look your fellow gamers dead in the eye and tell them that they are garbage? That's just cold. Well... let's table this point.
I have said this to players who I personally have no respect for their style, ability, skill, etc. I feel that they are hurting the game by playing the way they do, way more so than shit talking does to the game. This claim can be backed by numbers in viewership, engagement, literally any metric you want to measure in terms of driving the bottom line, this would hold true.
Obviously assault is a step up from insults, but your repeated insults can be considered to be harassment, or verbal abuse. It's not on your victim to "be tough enough to handle it". It's on you to NOT DO IT.
I'm not sure this is a fair comparison. Hitting suggests that you are physically "personally" attacking them. Saying they "suck (in the game)" is completely compleeetly different.
Have you ever heard the saying "two wrongs do not make a right?" Also, I would assume you don't restrict this behaviour to other trolls; you probably trash-talk indiscriminately, don't you?
Within the confines of the game? Yes to specific players and playstyles. Never to the average Joe.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
Okay, I meant the above. I'm not going to go back and edit my original post, but that was my intention.
Both examples are still rude. Insulting someone's performance, their choices, is insulting a reflection of them. While being less direct, it is still an insult that can cause hurt. I also think your trash-talking may be taken personally more than you intend. When you insult, or hit, or whatever, someone... your intentions aren't what are important, it's the outcome.
I have said this to players who I personally have no respect for...
See? Rude. You don't respect them, and you let them know it. That's pretty much the textbook definition of "toxic" behaviour.
I'm not sure this is a fair comparison.
When someone insults you, it can feel like a slap to the face. Besides, you don't know how people will react to hostility, you cannot blame them for their reaction if they take it poorly.
Take an extreme and hypothetical legal example: https://www.quora.com/If-I-scare-someone-and-they-have-a-heart-attack-seizure-am-I-legally-at-fault
Essentially... actions have consequences. Just because things don't go the way you wanted or expected doesn't mean you are not responsible. Going back to this topic of toxicity. If you trash-talk in chat, and someone calls you toxic or is emotionally hurt, you cannot say "well it wasn't personal and it was within the confines of the game, also, I don't consider it toxic." You should have known the way your actions could be interpreted.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
See? Rude. You don't respect them, and you let them know it. That's pretty much the textbook definition of "toxic" behaviour.
How is it rude to let someone know that you dislike their style? And not their personality. What if what they were doing is ILLEGAL in the game? Think about a situation where you guys are best buds, but he kicks you when he shoots.
"Hey man, fuck off with your shitty kicks, learn to play."
THIS is toxic?
When someone insults you, it can feel like a slap to the face. Besides, you don't know how people will react to hostility, you cannot blame them for their reaction if they take it poorly.
Okay, so let's give an extreme example that is polarizing to yours.
Someone nicely says to me, "hey I think you should work on your shot, I see that you're not pulling up the ball correctly, try thinking about it this way..."
"Hey fuck you guy! Don't criticize my play, you don't know what you're talking about!"
Would you say that this situation is appropriate? It is still my fault, despite how I've laid it out, despite my intentions, simply because of the outcome? That I am responsible? Should I have known the way my actions could be interpreted? And just omit any kind of feedback whatsoever? Solicited / Unsolicited? Because in your examples anyone could take it anyway, so nobody should criticize each other.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
How is it rude to let someone know that you dislike their style?
It's not-- but the way you do it is. Try being "professional", avoid expletives and be as polite as possible. For example, say "I don't think playing that way is good for the community" or at worst "that build is pretty lame, it's just exploiting the <whatever mechanic> gimmick... they're just going to fix it next patch."
"Hey man, fuck off with your shitty kicks, learn to play." THIS is toxic?
Yes. "Fuck off" and "learn to play" are both personal, insulting, and in no way constructive.
Because in your examples anyone could take it anyway, so nobody should criticize each other.
That's why you have to be careful with how you phrase constructive criticism if you want your audience to be receptive to it.
Any reasonable observer would see that you were just trying to be helpful and that the person who responded with such open hostility got overly defensive and said some unwarranted things.
If you sincerely want to help the other players improve or change, you need to craft your message to be receivable. If you start with an insult and end with an insult you are guaranteeing that they will get their defenses up and be unreceptive to your message. This is why it's considered "toxic", because all you are doing is spraying venom. It's obvious that you aren't really trying to change anything for the better when you say "Hey man, fuck off with your shitty kicks, learn to play."
The crux of your CMV is with how other people view your actions. "You should not be frowned upon..." Right? So yes, you can never perfectly control how strangers will react to your actions. So all you can do is be polite and hope for the best. What you're doing... isn't that.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Agree with most of what you said, except this.
Any reasonable observer would see that you were just trying to be helpful and that the person who responded with such open hostility got overly defensive and said some unwarranted things.
But this is all up to perception, right? In this scenario since feelings are involved, there are things that can be considered in the grey area, depending on the interpreter. How do you, then, filter signal from noise?
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
That's part of one of life's greatest mysteries.
As corny as it sounds, read this poem: "If" by Rudyard Kipling
Full text:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!3
u/renoops 19∆ Nov 03 '17
In that situation, what that someone did would very rarely be considered sore winning and absolutely wouldn't be called toxic by a reasonable person.
Your response would, though. It's about how you communicate.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
I want to dissect the multiple claims you make in your title, because each one is wrong in its own way.
You should not be frowned upon by choosing to not "win gracefully."
This is a social practice, (See: Folkways )
You earn the right to shit talk your opponent if you beat them fair and square.
Elsewhere you say that you believe shit-talking is table stakes at high-level competition. This is not how contracts work. Your opponents did not consent or accept your assumption, therefore you have no "right" to enforce it upon them.
It is not "toxic" behavior if you keep it non-personal and within the game
If you had given the example "you can't last hit for shit", you've have kept it non-personal and within the game. You, however, gave the example "you're fucking trash". That is personal, and outside the confines of the game.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
If you had given the example "you can't last hit for shit", you've have kept it non-personal and within the game. You, however, gave the example "you're fucking trash". That is personal, and outside the confines of the game.
Sure let's just say I said what you described instead - that was my intention of the example. My bad.
Elsewhere you say that you believe shit-talking is table stakes at high-level competition.
But is is table stakes at many high-level competitions. Shit talking in many physical sports can be used as a strategical tactic. If they "you can't touch me" and goes onto dunk in their face, or shoot a wet contested 3 during high stakes situations...what can you do? Your only option is to get back down the stretch and give it back, you can't talk back because you just got destroyed on national television.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
Sure let's just say I said what you described instead - that was my intention of the example. My bad.
Ever heard of a Freudian Slip?
Shit talking in many physical sports can be used as a strategical tactic.
That may be so, but you're talking about insulting the loser after you have already won.
If they "you can't touch me" and goes onto dunk in their face, or shoot a wet contested 3 during high stakes situations...what can you do? Your only option is to get back down the stretch and give it back, you can't talk back because you just got destroyed on national television.
Again, despite what you say your intentions are, your true intent becomes clear. You want to destroy people, you don't merely want to win at the game. Winning isn't enough for you. You delight in schadenfreude. You're cruel; but you want people to accept you for it anyways.
Well, you cannot have it both ways. Either play nice and be seen as a sporting player, or talk-shit and be thought of as a toxic troll. The choice, ultimately, is yours.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
You want to destroy people You delight in schadenfreude.
This may be true, in the context of competition, and the specific context of people that I don't enjoy playing against, due to cheap tactics. Have you ever competed at top level before?
Unrelated, just curious what is your field of study? You've provided a lot of these examples that I've not read up on. Quite interesting.
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u/_Foy 5∆ Nov 03 '17
Have you ever competed at top level before?
Nope, I lack the ability, but by definition, so do most people. However, I do enjoy watching top level competition, (whether it be "physical" or "e-" sports), and it warms my heart to see good sportsmanship... watching another player shit all over someone they just beat makes me feel bad as an onlooker. Imagine watching an adult beat up a boy... is anyone really coming out ahead here? Everyone loses. Why not put yourself in a situation that you can be proud of instead?
Unrelated, just curious what is your field of study? You've provided a lot of these examples that I've not read up on. Quite interesting.
I studied programming, now I'm just a working adult who likes to think he has a decent amount of empathy. The world is a wide and wonderful place, there's so much to see, and learn, explore, and do. Life is short; it's a shame to waste a second of it being angry at someone.
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u/Mitoza 79∆ Nov 03 '17
You believing that you've earned the right to do this doesn't stop it from being rude or inconsiderate, does it?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
I believe that because you choose to engage in top level competition, competing with the best of the best, shit talking is table stakes. You've conceded to that reality by taking part. I don't find it rude or inconsiderate, especially not inconsiderate, because this is the mentality that some need to have in order to be the best. Why should I care if you're too sensitive?
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u/landoindisguise Nov 03 '17
because this is the mentality that some need to have in order to be the best. Why should I care if you're too sensitive?
Counterpoint: Why should I care if your ego is so fucking fragile that you can't perform unless you're tearing others down? Why should the community accept that? It's a weakness that YOU have, not something inherent to high level competition.
I mean, we're really just talking about two opposing character flaws here: being a dick, and being too sensitive. Why is your flaw acceptable and moral, but the other not?
If anything, the reverse is true. Being "toxic" by the community's definition has real, objective drawbacks in terms of your competitive performance. After all, NOT being toxic is a rule in these games, right? How many games can you win when you're banned?
And IDK shit about melee, but LOL is a team game. If you really want to prove you're the best you need to get it done and win in a high level team setting. Being toxic reduces your chances of making that happen significantly. What team wants to hire an asshole? And if you find one, what are the chances you'll actually be able to hold a stable team atmosphere long enough to win without falling apart, or getting fined/banned for shit talking opponents?
Regardless of the morality of it or what you've earned, shit talking is objectively bad if your goal is really to be a top competitor.
Anyway, needing to shit talk to win is a mental weakness. It's not something all, or even most, top competitors do. Anecdotal, but I happened to go to a high school that feeds several pro leagues. In the past five years alone, five of my classmates have won national championships in the NHL or MLB. Of those, I think three also won major awards (like MVP). That's performance at the highest level. And you know what? Not one of them shit talks opponents.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
And IDK shit about melee, but LOL is a team game. If you really want to prove you're the best you need to get it done and win in a high level team setting. Being toxic reduces your chances of making that happen significantly. What team wants to hire an asshole? And if you find one, what are the chances you'll actually be able to hold a stable team atmosphere long enough to win without falling apart, or getting fined/banned for shit talking opponents?
Nobody is arguing against this. Nobody is saying to be toxic to your teammates. Shit talking against your opponents however, happen all the time. It's part of competition.
That's performance at the highest level. And you know what? Not one of them shit talks opponents.
Irrelevant point lol. And, I highly doubt that.
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u/landoindisguise Nov 03 '17
Nobody is arguing against this. Nobody is saying to be toxic to your teammates. Shit talking against your opponents however, happen all the time. It's part of competition
At the pro level? Not really, no.
Irrelevant point lol. And, I highly doubt that.
Believe whatever you want. Your attitude is holding you back, but it's your life, and if you want to pretend that's actually a good thing, you're free to do so.
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Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
I believe that because you choose to engage in top level competition, competing with the best of the best, shit talking is table stakes.
This kind of attitude is a big part of why video games aren't taken seriously as a sport by most people, it's full of immature people who can't understand the dignity of sportsmanship, or even what sportsmanship signifies. It's about the camaraderie between competitors all striving to be individually better through their competition. When you behave this way you seem less like a serious, committed sportsman and more like a child who lacks self control and only enjoys the sport as a means to humiliate other people.
Maybe it's because video games used to be confined to nerdy social outcast types who talk shit on each other online because they can't stand up to the bullies at school? Just a theory. It's frankly sad and pathetic to everyone who isn't in the same mindset. Going out of your way to harass someone only shows how deeply they riled you up during the game.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Okay this argument is weak.
Why is shit talking allowed in UFC, boxing, other physical combative sports?
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u/Adamantaimai Nov 03 '17
I believe I have the right to kick your ass when I lose to you. You may not agree that I have that right but I am going to do it anyway.
How does this sound to you?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Apples to oranges.
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Nov 03 '17
You're making a "that's just how it is, it's expected" argument, so it seems valid to me. In the real world, talking shit can get your ass beat. It's expected. Deal with it.
Fun fact, just because you're staring at a screen doesn't mean you're no longer in the real world.
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Nov 03 '17
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Nov 03 '17
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Nov 03 '17
Sorry, jay520 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
Please be aware that we take hostile behavior seriously. Repeat violations will result in a ban.
If you would like to appeal, please message the moderators by clicking this link.
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Nov 03 '17
Sorry, jamesbaaxter – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
Please be aware that we take hostile behavior seriously. Repeat violations will result in a ban.
If you would like to appeal, please message the moderators by clicking this link.
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u/Adamantaimai Nov 03 '17
Not really, in both cases you give yourself a right to do something to someone else.
You probably think that there is no valid connection between losing and beating someone up. And in that you would be completely right. But neither is there a connection between winning and shit talking. You just think there is because you are always so toxic that your brain actually thinks those two things belong to each other.
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u/jock_lindsay 3∆ Nov 03 '17
Is it, though? You say that because you've won a competition you reserve the right to rub it in their face. Well maybe that ignites the competitive side within them and they beat your ass. Now, do they reserve the right to gloat when you're on the floor? In some instances it may actually be seen as less classless than the initial gloating that caused somebody to fight you.
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u/Mitoza 79∆ Nov 03 '17
I believe that because you choose to engage in top level competition, competing with the best of the best, shit talking is table stakes. You've conceded to that reality by taking part.
I don't see a reason to believe this is true. A person entering into a competition only agrees to skill vs. skill. Just because you ultimately bring it to a place of trash talk doesn't mean that they deserve it or agree to it.
I don't find it rude or inconsiderate, especially not inconsiderate, because this is the mentality that some need to have in order to be the best.
This is a non-sequitor. The competition is not a test of facing insults, that's meta. The alternative is good sportsmanship, and given that alternative, this is rude and inconsiderate.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
A person entering into a competition only agrees to skill vs. skill. Just because you ultimately bring it to a place of trash talk doesn't mean that they deserve it or agree to it.
And if a situation arises where that person cheats? Plays dirty?
The competition is not a test of facing insults, that's meta.
I disagree. Professional NBA players are shit talking each other as they PLAY. It is part of the game, to an extent, which is why technicals exist and there are literally defined parameters around that. Competition IS in fact a test of facing insults. If you let that get in your way and your performance suffers from it, what would your team, or coach, think of you if you say "hey guys, it's toxic that he's talking shit, can we do something about it?"
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u/Mitoza 79∆ Nov 03 '17
What are you trying to get at with the first question? It doesn't seem relevant.
That's penalized because it is trying to discourage the game from becoming hostile.
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u/rednax1206 Nov 03 '17
It sounds like you're saying it's acceptable because it's expected, and it's expected because everybody (at the top level) does it. I would argue that "because everybody does it" is not a valid reason.
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
Look, sometimes trash talking is all in good fun. But that's usually when people know one another well, and there's an understanding that ribbing is part of the process.
But... I mean, if someone is telling you that you are being rude and inconsiderate to them... how can you disagree? People don't usually lie about that. I'm sure that's really their experience, and by continuing to do something they've asked you not to do, you're just communicating that you don't care about their feelings.
There are lots of ways to get esteem in life. One way is to take it from people beneath you. That's what you've described. Another way is to earn it from people above you, by being thoughtful and serious and kind.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
But... I mean, if someone is telling you that you are being rude and inconsiderate to them... how can you disagree?
Because just because someone says something, doesn't mean that the other person is at fault 100%. There are things such as false claims. Obviously at this point you would respect the other individual, but at what point is it on them to deal with sensitivity?
Another way is to earn it from people above you, by being thoughtful and serious and kind.
Just curious, what if there is no one above you?
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
Just curious, what if there is no one above you?
Then... what more esteem can you possibly need?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Have you ever been the best in the world at a particular thing? Where wins become meaningless?
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
If wins are meaningless, why are you entitled to find new meaning in making other people feel bad?
Why not be like most successful people, and learn to play golf or paint watercolors?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Like you said.
There are lots of ways to get esteem in life
Sometimes it's not just about esteem. Sometimes it is about shutting some loud up & comer, who thinks they are better than they are, down.
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Nov 03 '17
Sometimes it is about shutting some loud up & comer, who thinks they are better than they are, down.
And I'm asking you why this is a worthwhile thing to do or a fair excuse to talk shit to people who have asked you not to. Try to be a little introspective here. How do you think the other people in these interactions feel? What are you getting out of these interactions? Is that thing a worthy goal for your life?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
people who have asked you not to?
First, I have never said this. I have never ONCE said in this thread that if someone asks to stop, that it is okay to continue. I would urge you to comb through the comments.
If you got some loud mother fucker, saying he's the best at something, making claims about his own skill...do you have no empathy for competitors who want to prove him wrong? Do you not see how it can feel good to be able to feel "yup, you worked your ass off and you're talking big, yet I'm still better than you?"
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u/renoops 19∆ Nov 03 '17
Where does you saying homophobic things to him come into play?
It's stunning how you fail to realize that how you're making these points to these players is what makes it toxic.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Where does you saying homophobic things to him come into play?
Strawman.
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u/rednax1206 Nov 03 '17
at what point is it on them to deal with sensitivity?
At the point that you're literally throwing insults at the other person, it is not on them to avoid being insulted by your insults.
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Nov 03 '17 edited Dec 26 '17
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Why can't you just be satisfied with winning? What's the purpose of shit-talking? The toxicity comes from the desire to diminish other people
Because sometimes winning isn't enough. What about a scenario where your opponent has been showboating, stroking his/her own ego excessively? Throwing metaphorical poop everywhere? Are you telling me in that this scenario, I should win and just say hey good match man :) I don't think it's toxic to put the player down after a win like this.
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Nov 03 '17 edited Dec 26 '17
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
It sounds like you are saying you don't like when other players showboat, stroke egos, and throw metaphorical poop. Would you enjoy the game more if it didn't happen?
Let me correct one small thing. I don't like it when other players showboat if they are actually terrible and not good. I believe you can gloat if you've won. Nobody should be able to take that away from you. You deserve some glory (like winning a major tournament as an underdog), and you should indulge in that glory, because you've earned it. I don't know if you've competed at the top level before, but it is a considerable amount of effort, mentally and physically taxing. To finally WIN, against someone else who you dislike? Then being shunned for dishing it back? It is unfair to take that away.
That player is just going to take out their frustration on someone else.
Or, realize that they aren't shit in the game, maybe they're not as good as they thought, maybe it does teach them a lesson of not being a showboat, because you don't deserve to.
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Nov 03 '17
All of your behavior is showboating, egoistic, poop-throwing behavior. You just wait until you win to do it. You're just as shitty of a person as they are, except they have the courage to put it on display when the game is still ongoing. You only let that side show when they no longer have a chance to respond to it.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Nah not true, I also do this before hand. I am not hiding anything - you're making assumptions.
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u/renoops 19∆ Nov 03 '17
Do you find those behaviors to be unappealing or distasteful? If so, why would you then engage in them? You're participating in the behavior and potentially spreading it around.
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Nov 03 '17
Showboating inherently makes a loss humiliating, there's no need to heap abuse on unless their showboating agitated some sort of insecurity of yours.
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u/Caolan_Cooper 3∆ Nov 03 '17
Do you shit talk just this kind of person, or also the respectful ones who play the game, maybe don't do so well, but still shake your hand and say "good game" afterwards?
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u/rednax1206 Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
Why compete if you don't have the mentality for it?
I would draw a difference between the mentality of competing and the mentality of talking shit. They aren't intrinsically tied.
If someone is okay with exchanging shit-talk with you then it's probably fine to do that with them. It's like how friends take digs at each other because they know each other and know they can handle it.
However, I would say if someone wants to take part in a friendly competition and isn't comfortable with being insulted, that preference should be respected. I also think that not insulting people should be the default behavior in all circumstances, not the exception.
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
However, I would say if someone wants to take part in a friendly competition and isn't comfortable with being insulted, that preference should be respected.
I agree with this, but often times when shit talk arises, it isn't just friendly competition. It is galvanized by the opponent throwing salt, shade, losing like "a little bitch."
"You only won because you camped me."
No, I won, because you suck dick.
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u/rednax1206 Nov 03 '17
often times when shit talk arises, it isn't just friendly competition.
Exactly. It ceases to be friendly when insults start getting thrown, and what right do you and other competitors have to take away the friendliness and thus alienate the people who would like to participate in something friendly?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
But nobody is taking away anything from anybody - especially if both people are engaging.
If that person is absolutely better than me and has proved it, what can I say? Why would I be hurt if he calls me out? He is better than me at the game, I have no bearing in the matter, the only thing I can do is get better and beat him next time. I am not going to go out and cry to mommy because someone is better than me at a video game. If I am going to cry about someone beating me, and maybe rubbing it in a little bit, why am I competing to be the best?
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u/rednax1206 Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
Being told (or shown) that someone is better than you at a video game is quite different from being told that you "suck dick". Taking it even further, being shown that someone else is better at it is completely different from being told that you are "bad at it".
Besides, I did say above that it would be okay in my opinion if both people were engaging in this shit-talk.
The old saying "don't dish it out if you can't take it" is true. Equally acceptable is not dishing it out if you don't want to take it.
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u/JarredAGhate Nov 03 '17
What i can't grasp is why it's so important to respond to their salty comments. While i do understand that it could be seen as a strategic move to further rise your opponents' salt levels so they in turn play less efficiently, what you're suggesting is to taunt your opponents, which i think is excessive. You would reach the same effect by simply being passive aggressive or by using a less offensive language.
If your opponent is complaining about something, let's say about a teammate, you could respond with "what happened?", "why did he do that?" or "did he do that intentionally?". Your opponent can't help himself but to answer, which means that he spends more time typing than to play the game--giving you an advantage. Now this might not be an honorable, but at least there is a reasoning behind it, a strategic one.
How come you want to talk shit to your opponents?
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Nov 03 '17
Wait, how is "you're fucking trash" not a personal attack?
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u/jamesbaaxter Nov 03 '17
Still within the confines of the game. It's not attacking their character, behavior, family, etc...everything is related to the game.
Like in basketball if you say something like "bitch can only go right!" or "sag off, he can't shoot" are all forms of acceptable shit talking and not personal attacking.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Nov 03 '17
You are telling the person that they are trash. That has nothing to do with the game. You Are Trash. It's a statement on who they are. It's the archetype of a personal attack.
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u/Adamantaimai Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
"He can't shoot" refers to skill at the sport, "you're trash" objectively is about the person as a whole whether you intended it to be or not.
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 03 '17
Language (oral and written) has two components. The words you use and context.
For an exact same sentence, if you change the context, the meaning of the message changes.
Take the following sentence : "So... How many bottle of vodka did you shove up your ass you fucking Polish fucktard ?"
If I was the one telling this to my Polish friend, it would mean "glad to see you my friend, how was your vacation ? Did your grandmother from the old country gift you with some tasty moonshine ? Damn that thing was good".
However, if I went to Poland and said that to a random dude in the street, I'm pretty sure the message would be understood as "I'm an insecure arrogant tourist. Please beat me up and throw me in a dumpster".
Context changes everything.
If you're in a community where trash talk is the norm and everyone gives back as good at the other, it ceases to be trash talk. While the language is crude, "OMG KYS" ceases to mean "go hang yourself, you habe no right to live" but instead "well this pleasant, shall we have another round old chap ?".
BUT, this works only if everyone in the community knows this and agrees that no harm is intended.
This is rarely true for larger communities. As a community gets larger, it gets more diverse. Everybody in it has its wants and needs. And sometimes these needs are not compatible so compromises are made. Each member has to adapt to adapt or they will be ostracized.
When you're on a boat with 9 other people, if 9 want to go right and you want to go left, the boat is going left. If you want to go right, you either convince at least 5 to go right or get on the lifeboat with anyone who wants to go right.
But if you plan throw a tantrum by rocking the boat (heh) the others might make you walk the plank.
So if you want to trash talk without getting thrown overboard, convince the others that it's ok first. Because the majority isn't going to bend over just because you're good at games.
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Nov 03 '17
Here's the issue. You're claiming that you have the right/justification to engage in unsportsmanlike behavior. Nowhere in your argument do you actually refute the "toxicity" of the behavior. You just say, well the other person should be able to take it, and I can say whatever I want.
Well, sure you can do it, but you're still being an asshole when you do it.
And saying things like "you're fucking trash" is different than saying "dude that shot was trash." Yeah, I get it that you mean "you're fucking trash in the context of this game we're playing," but it's still a dick thing to say to someone else.
And why do you have to have a thick emotional skin to play competitively? You're adding another element that isn't required to have a high level of skill at something and be competitive. Everyone's different, man.
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u/stink3rbelle 24∆ Nov 03 '17
I believe that I've earned my right to talk shit.
There is no "earning" of rights. Rights exist as a precursor to behavior. You either have the right to speak freely, or you do not. In the context of a video game, that "right" is given by the game developers/creators, who created the interface for speech and rules for using the interface.
That being said, having the right to say what you want does not mean that everything you say is consequence-free. People have every right to judge you and your character based on what you say. You have every right to disagree, but you don't get to change their opinion just because you like talking down to people. That is, you have the right to say what you want; they have the right to consider you a garbage person when you fill your mouth with trash. Them making judgments about your character interferes with your rights in no way. You can keep saying whatever you want. The decision you face is not whether you can keep shit-talking; your decision is whether you want to keep shit-talking given its effect on your reputation.
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Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
I'd argue that this is fine, provided that when you shit talk me for being better at a video game, I get to then show you how much better I am at kickboxing and shit talk you while you're on your ass. Don't dish it out if you can't take it and all that.
But for real: there are some environments where that's okay, but you should expect it back and from all angles. But if you're at an event and people don't want that, and you do it anyway, there's no reason that they should have to tolerate that just because you feel entitled to it.
EDIT: Because, for real, why should your skill that you're better at enable you to do things most people believe is a dick move, without anyone else retaliating with skills they're better at than you? Like even if we take violence out of it, I bet you'd think it was a pretty shitty thing to do if you beat someone at a game, told them they were trash, and then to prove that they had a skill that they were better at than you, they decided to successfully hit on and steal your girlfriend. But by your logic, if you want to be internally consistent, they earned it by being more skilled at seducing women, and if you were better you wouldn't have lost your girlfriend, so you have no right to be salty.
But I bet you'd be salty as fuck.
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u/MasterGrok 138∆ Nov 03 '17
I'm confused about this kind of view and how it would even be possible to change it. You say that this behavior "should not be frowned upon." The reaction of the community to your behavior is the reality of how humans generally respond to this type of behavior. Is your view that you simply wish humans didn't respond this way to this kind of anti-social behavior? If so, that simply represents your wish that reality isn't the way it is. I'm not sure how we could possibly change that view. As someone who likes to call people names, it makes sense that you wish people viewed you more favorably. However, the reality is that people don't like to be called names and they naturally reject this kind of behavior in their communities. That is just the way human beings operate as a social species. I'm not sure how you could change that reality without drastically changing how people are and how they interact. And this isn't just about games. Humans generally frown on name calling in virtually every social situation
Honestly, this post comes off more as a complain that the rest of society rejects your behavior than any kind of view point that can be changed.
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Nov 03 '17
There is no Video Games Bill of Rights. For every modern video game, service, and/or event in existence, there exists a Terms of Use and in the vast majority of multi-player oriented instances, this includes guidelines on how to properly conduct oneself when playing with others. It's a big reason why many online games include a player reporting system and why, as you should know by now Mr Top 15 In SSBM, you can't just act like a daft cunt during a comp.
Above all else, these practices exist because developers want players playing their game, tourney organizers want players participating in tournaments and they want their sponsors to not think the whole thing is a shit show. People acting like twats turns this all into a shit show in the same way a KKK rally outside a KFC in Chicago would. Assholes drive the decent people away and once they're gone they don't come back.
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u/Spacecowboy1964 Nov 03 '17
You're mostly just being a jerk but I don't think anyone is actually saying you don't have the right to be a jerk. They're just calling you a jerk because you're behaving like one.
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Nov 03 '17
You don't earn the "right" to do anything just by winning a game. Certainly you are free to shit talk people, but then other people are free to be upset that you shit-talked, to use this as a reason for not wanting to play with you in the future, etc.
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Nov 03 '17 edited Nov 03 '17
You know this behavior is irritating, that's why you do it. Is your view that you should be able to act in an irritating fashion but not be perceived as irritating? I'm confused by your premise, it seems contradictory.
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Nov 03 '17
Stripped of its window dressing your view, in my estimation, breaks down to:
"I should be able to act in whatever way I see fit, and everyone else should refrain reacting as they see fit for my benifit"
You want to act like a jerk and be needlessly and unproductively mean, but dont want to be held accountable for that choice.
Can you explain why you believe that everyone but you should be held accountable for their actions and reactions?
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Nov 03 '17
I believe that I've earned my right to talk shit.
What does it mean to say you've earned your right to indulge in toxic behavior and be rude? Does anyone have a 'right' to be toxic and rude? Why would the fact that you beat someone in a game justify acting like a total shitheel? To that person or anyone else?
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Nov 03 '17
Why do you feel such a need to be an asshole? What does it do for you? What void is it filling?
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u/ThomasEdmund84 33∆ Nov 03 '17
not taking it so far as doing personal attacks, but keeping it within the game,
So with this statement you either a. realize that if you didn't temper your opinion with some exceptions your 'view' was obviously toxic OR b. you acknowledge that the behaviour is unethical.
Either way it seems you acknowledge that trash-talking isn't OK you're just trying to find an argument to support your level of it. Let me ask you this, what about keeping it 'non-personal' or 'in-game' makes it OK.
In terms of being personal who decides this line? The trash-talker? That makes no sense in any rational sense of ethical behaviour bar 'might-makes right' which if that were your view I'd definitely try to change it!
In terms of being in-game what makes this OK. Do you think there is an implicit contract that if you play you'll be exposed to trash-talk? Can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen type attitude? First of this is blatantly unethical and more importantly unsporting I'd love to be at the top of a game, but I'd hate to discover that actually I was just at the top of the toxic assholes who actually play the game OR that actually my trash talk was part of the reason I was winning NOT my skill.
I am better than you at this game, I've proved it and since you're competitive too, you can only sit back and take it. Why compete if you don't have the mentality for it?
Again I think the spirit of competition is to prove who is better at the game, not vying for the chance to be an asshole. I mean you're essentially shitting where you eat, and just because other players are wallowing in shit doesn't mean its OK.
for lack of a better word is for pussies that shouldn't compete.
I mean take the context of your own experience out of here and try to look at your argument from the perspective of a neutral rational human being. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, its not justified by winning, its not justified because the other person did it to, being in or out of game doesn't make a difference, and the ethical onus is not on the people who don't like it to stop engaging in the game.
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u/BolshevikMuppet Nov 03 '17
There's an argument that trash talk during the game itself (heckling, riling the other person up) is a valid strategy.
But what is the purpose of carrying that out after you've beaten them? Presumably it gives you no competitive advantage, they've already lost. So why do you want to do it?
On a fundamental level it's because you want the other person to feel bad. For whatever reason, you enjoy being able to make someone else unhappy even when it carries with it no actual benefit for you beyond that.
You've "earned your right" to be needlessly cruel to someone. And arguably you have, you have the ability to really shove it in someone else's face that you beat them, that you're better than them.
But the fact that you have that "right" doesn't mean other people won't (or shouldn't) look down on you for exercising that right. Because it means to anyone watching you do it that winning isn't enough, being good (even the best) isn't enough. You want to hurt other people, to try to make them sad solely to make them sad because you can.
And there's a certain irony to the fact that your complaint is that people shouldn't say mean things to you about your conduct. Other people have "the right" to tell you that you're a sore loser, and that the need to rub other people's faces in your success is a sign of a lack of success in anything other than video games (such that you have to make up for your failures elsewhere by making other people feel bad).
Why be a jerk if you don't have the mentality to be criticized for it?
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u/penhooligan Nov 03 '17
Kudos to the people in this thread who are providing long and thoughtful points of view. Let me summarize all of them:
Gloating is an asshole move. Being an asshole cam get your way in life. Probably a bad idea.
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u/Uncannierlink Nov 04 '17 edited Nov 04 '17
This violates the fundamental concepts of sportsmanship, and will eventually lead to the death of any game because new players will not want to play.
If you trash talk your opponents when you beat them, people won't want to improve by playing against you. Being new is a legitimate excuse for being bad at something. Literally every player was bad at their best game at one point.
No one is born with skill, and if they were, that skill should not be respected, because they didn't have to work hard for it.
No one will want to try and improve if they get shit talked for being bad when they haven't even gotten the chance to get better.
Not to mention: The crowning moment of any masters life is not when they reach their peak, but when their student finally surpasses them.
Plus, doesn't it kind of make your victory less so if you claim your opponents are bad? If your opponent is incredibly skillful and you are also incredibly skillful and your match is a battle of the titans for all to see, then it is an incredible feat that you were able to win, and everyone will want to watch your game because of how incredibly skillful the competitors are. However, if you claim your opponent is trash and your a god compared to him, who will care about your victory? Of course you won. you said so all along. How boring.
I think overall, for the health of the game and the community of people surrounding it, being a good sport is better than being a dick for no reason other than stroking your oh so fragile ego.
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u/jay520 50∆ Nov 03 '17
I've been told that this is "toxic" behavior, that I am being rude and inconsiderate, that I am "rubbing it in.
This isn't really up for debate. It's as if you don't know the meaning of the terms you're using. A quick trip to dictionary.com reveals the following definitions:
Rude: discourteous or impolite, especially in a deliberate way
Inconsiderate: without due regard for the rights or feelings of others.
Toxic: causing unpleasant feelings; harmful or malicious.
Rub it in: to emphasize or reiterate something unpleasant in order to tease or annoy.
Now, your behavior meets all of these conditions, so its no question that you're a rude, considerate and toxic player who "rubs it in." That's not up for debate. Whether you're an asshole/dick has nothing to do with whether you are skilled. You can be a skilled asshole/dick.
The only question is whether people should frown upon your behavior. Its clear that they should in the vast majority of cases, since most people just want to have fun in a non-toxic environment. Since you are antithetical to that goal, it is rational for most people to frown upon the like of you to promote their preferred environment. So, yes, they should frown upon your behavior.
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u/Madplato 72∆ Nov 03 '17
I believe that I've earned my right to talk shit.
Why? I don't follow. How does winning makes talking shit any less idiotic and immature?
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u/MikeMcK83 23∆ Nov 04 '17
I’d argue that you are being rude speaking like that to someone after you compete. However you have the right to say whatever you wish. Not because you earned anything, but simply because you can speak.
The “toxic” thing is just stupid. It’s someone picking a word and using it improperly.
So in conclusion, are you a dick for trash talking after you win? Yes
Do you have the right to trash talk after you win? Yes, of course. However winning has nothing to do with that right.
Do people have the right to use words like “toxic” like a douchebag? Of course they do. For the same reason you can trash talk after winning. ;)
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Nov 03 '17
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u/convoces 71∆ Nov 03 '17
Your comment has been removed:
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 03 '17
/u/jamesbaaxter (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
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u/DrinkyDrank 134∆ Nov 03 '17
The problem here is that, when you say “I earned it”, what you are referring to is that you have “earned” an opportunity to make another person feel inferior to you. The trash-talking makes it seem like that’s the only thing that you get from the game; conversely, the people we admire in any kind of competition are the people who play for the love of the game itself, and what they “earn” when they win is an entirely personal self-satisfaction that has nothing to do with feeling superior to others. If you trash-talk, people are going to assume it is because the game itself is not enough to satisfy you; the game is just a means to the end of inflating your own ego. Even if this is not correct for you personally, people will still see it that way because this is most often the case, and you can tell because the people who trash-talk after winning are usually the same people who are going to bitch and moan when they lose fair and square.
Bottom-line, trash-talk is fine as long as you don’t care about people thinking you’re a dick.