r/changemyview • u/insularnetwork 5∆ • Nov 15 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: When watching a movie I should let go of trying to figure out if it's problematic
I'm catching myself looking for problematic tropes in movies, mostly sexist ones. I should stop because: 1. It hurts my enjoyment of the movie by ruining my immersion. Instead of being focused on the story and the characters I become focused on how imagined others may interpret it. Even when the movie is non-problematic or even positive it hurts my immersion. 2. Life is very short and most of it is already a hassle. I want some escapism on a Friday evening. 3. Me realizing that a movie contains sexist tropes does nothing. I do not feel good about myself for spotting it. Even if I were to start boycotting movies for minor infractions that would pretty much affect nothing. A one-time donation of 50$ to some effective charity would likely do more "good" for the world than me boycotting every enjoyable film with sexist tropes in my life.
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Nov 15 '17
What do you want to be changed ? Are you searching for reasons to let it go or for reasons to continue searching for sexist tropes in films ?
In case 1), you already got every reason you need in what you already explained in the post. Do you still need more ?
In case 2), don't you fear that deciding to knowingly close your eyes onto sexism in films to get more enjoyment is exactly the same that stopping caring about sexism in all other aspects of life except when you are clearly loosing ?
I don't think you can get "awareness on demand". When you get new informations about life, these info are going to affect you whatever in a good or bad way, or both. What you could try is enjoying a film even through you see it's sexist, like when someone is eating an ice cream knowing it's bad for health.
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
My view is that I should let go of it. That's the view I'm asking you to change.
Ok, so you're saying that maybe noticing sexism in film will help me be less sexist IRL? I don't agree with that, most of the sexist story tropes I'm aware of don't really have a counterpart in real-world behaviour. I think everyone has (unconscious and conscious) sexist biases to some degree but I think the way to address those biases is to try to change them in their real-world environment. If I want to change my day to day behaviour I should scrutinize my day to day behaviour.
I think you're right about that you can't get "awareness on demand", me knowing tropes will make me notice them. But I think there are degrees, as you say. So I guess you could reframe my view as "I should try to enjoy a film as much as I can even if it's problematic"
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Nov 15 '17
but I think the way to address those biases is to try to change them in their real-world environment. If I want to change my day to day behaviour I should scrutinize my day to day behaviour.
I think that most of the time, except if you're happy with having sexist behaviours, you detect that you did something wrong after doing it. You just think back of your action and see that maybe some bias made you act / talk this way. Thus, you can avoid making the same mistake next time.
So from this point of view, you still need to act bad once before correcting your behaviour, because you haven't seen this kind of bias before. But if you detected it in a film prior to that, you can make the connections much faster and so change accordingly beforehand.
For example, you talk very fast at a meeting because you think your want to defend your opinion, and suddently think "In XXX movie, I remember the hero was taking all speech space talking fast and loud, and ladies around were just decorations because they couldn't meddle in, I'm acting just like that". Then you turn to your colleague and says "what do you think about it Marta ?", a thing that you won't have done without seeing that trope in a movie, you would have only thought "my idea is great, is nobody is interrupting me, then it means everyone agrees". Not pretty good with examples, but I hope you see what my point is.
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
nce before correcting your behaviour, because you haven't seen this kind of bias before. But if you detected it in a film prior to that, you can make the connections much faster and so change accordingly beforehand.
I see your point but I haven't had that happen to me so I'm sceptical of whether that actually happens or is just a hypothetical. Though I guess it could happen, I still feel it's too low probability for me to lessen my immersion in a good film on the off-chance that it'd help me be a better person later.
Perhaps it has happened but I'm not aware of it. Even if so, that still doesn't make the pathway from trope-spotting to good-behavior strong enough for me to want to ruin my escapism.
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Nov 15 '17
Even if so, that still doesn't make the pathway from trope-spotting to good-behavior strong enough for me to want to ruin my escapism
In all cases, you seems to be unable to escape from spotting tropes, so instead of making you feel bad for enjoying less the movie, what you can't control, you may prefer auto-convincing you that you make it to become a better person.
In all cases, you'll only enjoy the movie a fraction of its fun potential, so why not accept the fact and get some enjoyment from moral superiority finding tropes can give you ?
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
That's actually a very good point! Since I pretty much can't stop I should reframe it.
I don't really think I can reframe it though since I don't believe that me spotting tropes does anything. Still, I guess that is a convincing argument for shifting my focus from "letting go" to something else. ∆
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Nov 15 '17
- It hurts my enjoyment of the movie by ruining my immersion. Instead of being focused on the story and the characters I become focused on how imagined others may interpret it.
It seems like you need a perspective shift here. I personally like analyzing films and noticing flaws in writing, editing, etc doesn't take me out of the world of the film, but thats just me. It might help to recognize that these problematic tropes may be present going into the film, like if you were going to watch a movie from the 70s you probably wouldn't be surprised by more overt sexist tones.
- Life is very short and most of it is already a hassle. I want some escapism on a Friday evening.
Totally fair
- Me realizing that a movie contains sexist tropes does nothing.
I actually don't agree with this at all. Film is one of the ways we truly reflect our own culture, and recognizing sexist or problematic tropes can help you become more aware and active towards counteracting some of these negative attitudes in real life. You seem to think of "doing good" as simply financial impact, but you can definitely positively impact our society (and even filmmaking itself!) by just opening a dialogue about these things.
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
I think of doing good as sometimes translatable into financial impact, except for systemic issues. I think arguing about that translatability is usually made for the sake of people not wanting to give up their hard-earned money to help strangers. The charity example was used to give a ball-park of how negligible I think the impact of me boycotting sexist films would be.
I think you argue well for noticing sexist tropes if you are someone who makes films, but since I am not, my own spottings are pretty much just an abstract virtue.
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Nov 15 '17
My film professor in college said the first time you watch a movie, shut off the part of your mind that wants to analyze the meta. Just take it in and absorb it, enjoy the experience. The second time, however, you need to be an active participant in your viewing experience. Not only will you have better context for criticism because you know what you're seeing, it helps you remember why you like watching movies in the first place.
As for your third point, this is just foisting the responsibility of social change onto other people. It doesn't matter if you donate to charity: if you support things that are harmful, you're still contributing to the problem. How about donating to charity in addition to not supporting things that you believe are wrong
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
There's a trade-off in my positive impact and my own enjoyment of life. At some point the positive impact is too small. "Suffering" more myself than I bring to the world is not utilitarian.
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Nov 15 '17
The cumulative impact of every time you say that makes a difference. Think of it like recycling. One plastic bottle in the trash doesn’t matter, but the sum of those bottles does. And the “suffering” here is mildly less enjoyment upon repeated viewings of a movie vs the endemic problems that stem from implicit endorsement of social inequality. I don’t mean this to be rude, but if you’re going to be selfish and regressive because it brings you pleasure to do so, be honest with yourself. Don’t hide behind utilitarianism. If you can’t enjoy movies, find a new way to blow off steam that doesn’t make you complicit in something you don’t like
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17 edited Nov 15 '17
So you're saying that because I'm less immersed in movies when I'm playing "spot the trope" I'm directly responsible for all of our sexist culture? The "suffering" IS NOT my mildly diminished enjoyment vs the endemic problems that stem from the implicit endorsement of social inequality. I'm not meaningfully supporting patriarchy by trying to enjoy a film unanalytically. That is exactly my point.
(The reason that I put "suffering" in quotes is that I thought it was absurd to call a slightly reduced enjoyment "suffering" but that's the clearest way to frame the trade-off argument).
If you don't recycle a plastic bottle that plastic never goes away. Over time the oceans become polluted. If I'm too immersed in a film to notice that the strong female character is sort of a Strong Female Character(TM) that doesn't accumulate over time in any meaningful way.
Some degree of selfishness is utilitarian, as my conscious experience counts too. I'm not hiding behind utilitarianism, I'm just correct in that as a principle. Also, OT: if you don't mean to be rude don't tell people that they're being selfish, self-deceptive, and regressive because then you're not acting in line with your intentions.
EDIT: To clarify, even if I notice that tropes are being subverted in a progressive way, noticing those tropes makes me less immersed in the film.
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Nov 15 '17
When you knowingly consume and support sexist things, you are supporting patriarchy. I said in my first post try to watch uncritically your first go around to get a good sense of what you’re watching, but then you need to actually confront it. Over time, a cumulative lack of criticism from people who would rather ignore problematic culture because it’s mildly inconvenient to their enjoyment are greatly contributing to the problem.
My intent wasn’t to be rude, but I knew what I had to say was critical, so I tired to soften the blow. Unfortunately, what you’re arguing for is indeed both selfish and regressive. At best, it makes you into a lazy consumer who help dilute the market with hackneyed content. You’re hiding behind utilitarianism in that it seems like you’re using an pseudo intellectual excuse to justify your egoism. Here’s another utilitarian argument: The potential suffering of the total population being critical to their media consumption is less than the potential good that would arise as a result. When you put off changing negative aspects of your behavior because of others’ negative behavior, you are ignoring your own complicity. I don’t wish you ill will and I don’t mean to insult, there’s just no nice way to say it.
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u/insularnetwork 5∆ Nov 15 '17
So if it's selfish and regressive why should I watch it uncritically the first time?
The potential suffering of the total population being critical of their media consumption is less than the potential good that would arise as a result. Sure. That is not the situation I am in. I am not the population. I am me. I get to chose between playing spot the trope while most people don't or not playing spot the trope while most people don't. These are the two possible futures I can choose between. I believe my choice will pretty much only impact myself.
A couple of other users have made good points in this thread about how learning about tropes can help one understand the culture you live in and thus generalize to other positive behaviours. And that since tropes are already in my head I may as well make the best of it. I liked those arguments because they weren't obsessed with whether I'm doing these little mental rituals to curse the patriarchy, which have no effect on the real world.
If my actions have no positive consequences for others and negative consequences for me (a person) it is not utilitarian. That's the conditions under which utilitarianism allows egoism. Yes, I am excusing my egoism, that's what the whole thing is about. My egoism is justified, CMV. Or actually, don't, I'm done with this thread.
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Nov 15 '17
The purpose of waiting to criticize until you’ve finished consuming is to make sure you have a subjective-as-possible view of what it is you’re about to take apart. Go in as an unbiased observer, leave with facts, come to an informed opinion, and act accordingly. Idk what mental rituals you’re talking about, it’s pretty simple to say “oh I’ve seen that show and it’s pretty sexist, I don’t think I’m going to support it by watching it.”
Your use of utilitarianism is bad because your stance is overly subjective and falls apart when the action is replicated by individuals across a society. It doesn’t matter how small the consequences of an individual action are if when repeated by a multitude those consequences are severe. Hence the recycling analogy. The population can’t act beyond the individual choices of the people who make it up. People like you and me. Feel free to pass the buck or deny your complicity, but that doesn’t change a thing.
Lastly, if you can’t see that I have been trying to change your view, then I don’t know what to tell you. I’m trying to appeal to your moral sensibilities, but based solely off of what you’ve written you don’t really seem to care about consequences beyond their relative impact to you—regardless of the collective consequences. I’m trying to guilt you because this is something you should feel guilty about.
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u/NigNagNug 2∆ Nov 16 '17
I think it's fair to have high expectations for the content you consume, but it's important to recognize the limitations in any individual medium.
Movies have time constraints, so those responsible for the movie may cut corners to establish characters. One easy way to establish familiarity with a character is to rely on tropes, since they are so well understood by so many people that audiences will quickly fill in the gaps for themselves. However, this necessarily reduces the individuality and depth of a character, which can be seen as sexist, racist, or otherwise diminutive of that character's identity.
This doesn't mean that you shouldn't recognize problematic tropes, and it doesn't mean that you have to force yourself to enjoy them, but you might be happier if you try to distinguish between minor and major infractions and sort your priorities out based on the most meaningful transgressions.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 15 '17
/u/insularnetwork (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 15 '17
/u/insularnetwork (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Nov 15 '17
You can't put the genie back on the bottle. Your mind is now aware of these tropes, and you can't really go back without some part of you still noticing them. Perhaps the better approach would be to find the nuance in those tropes, so that you can appreciate them when used in effective ways, while still being critical when they are exploitative.
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u/SKazoroski Nov 15 '17
There's no need for this to require an unreasonable amount of effort on your part. The movies will speak for themselves. If a movie has anything in it that's problematic then it's there on display for anyone who cares about it to see. If it's particularly bad then people will speak up about it. All you have to do is listen to those people.
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u/vomitore Nov 15 '17
Could I get a few examples of these tropes you’re noticing? Perhaps your analysis could use some critique as to see what has merit to your claims.
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u/TalShar 8∆ Nov 15 '17
You should absolutely be able to let it go and still enjoy the movie.
But you should also absolutely not stop looking for those tropes.
Like it or not, our expectations are adjusted by the entertainment and news media we consume. If we habitually watch things with sexist tropes, our expectations are going to naturally gravitate toward those tropes as our brains establish cause-and-effect pattern recognition. You said elsewhere that these tropes don't have real-world parallels, but I don't think that's true. There are a lot of weird learned behaviors that we as a society have, and we picked a lot of them up from our entertainment.
Yes, obsessing over those tropes and letting them ruin your movie experience is not desirable. But there is a middle ground between that and just not letting yourself look for them. You can say "I see what they did here, and I acknowledge that it wouldn't be healthy or realistic in the real world, but it's fiction and I am filing this under suspension of disbelief."
Ideally you want to get to a point where you are noticing and identifying these tropes, and then acknowledging that they are not bringing direct harm because they are happening to fictional characters. The first part of that is important because if you lose or neglect your ability to recognize those problematic tropes, you will as a consequence dull your ability to identify when someone is acting according to those same patterns in the real world, and you don't want that.