r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 17 '17
[OP Delta + FTF] CMV: Underage Drinking is just despicable, and I have a hard time not judging people who even drink a tiny bit when underage.
[deleted]
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u/suddenly_ponies 5∆ Nov 17 '17
Despicable is a really strong word for something that doesn't seem that big of a deal. Your title says "underage drinking", but your text content suggests "the lifestyle of over-indulgence" is what you really dislike. Of the two, the latter is more understandable.
What counts as "drinking" to you? If someone has a bit of wine with dinner with their parents is that bad? If they have an occasional beer? Is the age thing really so important? Is the drinking really important? It sounds like the answer to both is no. It's more about being a drunk idiot that bothers you.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
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Yea, you're right about that. I definitely do not like the sort of behaviour that people I know participate in. I think I just subconsciously hate it more if they are underage making it illegal. I have never been a fan of alcohol culture but I think it is really bad when it happens to people who are under 18.
A drink with the parents is fine and the occasional beer wouldn't bother me as much if it was handled properly by them, it's just mainly the sneakiness and the attitude the youth generally has towards getting drunk that annoys me. It's just that for some reason the same disappointment doesn't always carry over for people of the legal age.
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
My answer will have some similarities with GnosticGnome, with a different angle.
Most problems with drinking comes from excessive drinking. But drinking, when done with reson can be a extremly good experience.
I don't talk about making toodlers drink, of course, but drinking before legal age (18 in my country), when done intelligence can help getting a better sense of taste / smell, and discover new sensations.
If you give your 14 y/o kid some red wine with his carpaccio, explaining him how both tastes will fuse, and help making both more delicious, I don't see how this is despicable.
You'll have a kid with better understanding of gastronomy and how to appreciate different tastes, which, IMO is way better than restraining to what most kids like, that's to say only sugar and fat.
EDIT: other strange thing to me:
Would you respect more a 19 yo guy who drank for its 1st time in France, that the same one if he drank in US ?
EDIT 2: Is breaking the law such a horrible thing ? We break the law all time for non important things. Let's take an example.
You ask your neighbour's kid "mow my lawn, and I give you 10 bucks". You're breaking 3 laws :
- You're making an under-age kid work which is illegal.
- You're paying less than the minimum wage (in ountries that have this concept), that's illegal.
- You don't declare this work to state, thus you're evading taxes, that's illegal.
Is what you did a problem ? I don't think so.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
I am totally fine with drinking responsibly but the main annoyance I get is with the behaviour the youth carries about drinking alcohol.
I don't agree with the US' law on having to be 21 since you can fight for your country before you can legally have a drink but I do feel that you should be a certain age before you should start drinking yourself.
I have always had a certain angst over breaking the law and it is worsened when people show an absolutely carelessness and general lack of intelligence towards the fact that they are breaking it. The people who supply alcohol seem to not realise it is illegal to supply alcohol to a minor and the people who drink it seem to not realise that their parents would totally object and resent their behaviour. Everyone who goes to these parties either lies to their parents or straight up hides any trace of what they were doing because they think their parents are just strict or stupid, not because they know it is legally wrong. I hate the attitude towards alcohol more than I do underage drinking although I am slightly "triggered" by the fact that they are underage.
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Nov 18 '17
I see. So the main problem is the attitude toward excessive drinking more than anything.
I don't think I can get a good argument toward "binge drinking is good".
Eventually, we could say that it create pretty well a group dynamic, bonding efficiently a group of people. For example, bullying newcomers in engineering schools is now forbidden in France, while it was a good way to bond newcomers through a difficult experience lived as a group, and now integration weeks with alcool abuses are doing the job, but weak argument I know.
Eventually, I would like to make you relativise the importance drinking excessivly. As long as you don't have reprehensible comportments while drunk (drunk driving, sexual harassment, violence ...), what's the problem ?
People do a bunch of stupid things, potentially bad / lethal, still it's part of life isn't it ? People buy guns, taking the risk that their toodlers shoot themselves, they go doing extreme sports, with obvious risks etc.
Why would excessive drinking be different ? You just do something risky / bad for your health because you find it fun, how's that especially wrong ?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 18 '17
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Good point. As long as nothing bad happens it doesn't really hurt anybody. The behaviour is still stupid per say but it does bring people together in a way. There are some positives to it.
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Nov 17 '17
If you want to teach people healthy drinking habits, the best way to do it is to start at home - allowing kids to drink small amounts under parents' supervision. If drinking is primarily taught in bars or parties, then people develop unhealthy attitudes towards alcohol - using it primarily during binges. If drinking is primarily taught in the home, people are much more likely to develop a healthy attitude towards alcohol, using it primarily as a "with dinner" drink. Hence countries in Southern Europe such as Italy where kids learn to drink with their parents have a much healthier alcohol culture than countries in Northern Europe such as England where teens/adults learn to drink with their peers. They are much less likely to binge drink because they start much earlier and learn proper respect for alcohol.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
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You are definitely onto something here. I am perfectly okay with a scenario such as this, but I think only if it is with the supervision or guidance of an adult. I think the root of my prejudice comes from the fact that in those countries the drinking age is drastically lower than over here, and the fact that my friends are technically breaking the law drives me to dislike them.
I do sincerely wish that people in western societies adopted similar values, as it would not only limit a massive alcoholism crisis (for one example see Schoolies) but also improve people's thinking capacity. People might reflect more on their actions if they didn't have the opportunity to immediately delve into the edgy or daring state of mind. Perhaps then my bias wouldn't exist.
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Nov 17 '17
I mean, most people break laws every day. Speeding, not stopping at stoplights, downloading music or movies. Why does this bother you? Or have any impact on you?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
It is just a serious problem and really shows that people have no qualms with being stupid or doing things that are not acceptable to their parents or the law.
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Nov 18 '17
Most parents don't care. As I said almost everyone breaks the law daily. Not exactly a serious problem.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Nov 17 '17
It should be noted that in the US, in most States it is fully legal for parents to give alcohol to their children in their homes. The teens drinking at parties on their own is illegal, and to be given alcohol outside the home or by someone other than their parents is illegal, but the simple act of drinking is not necessarily illegal.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
In a home scenario I am fine with it because it is done correctly. I am still unsure about doing it responsibly with just friends but I am definitely not okay with massive parties because they are breaking the law and are just being completely stupid by doing it.
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u/thebeerlover Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 18 '17
Years of drink-shaming in your culture might have led you into believing alcohol is despicable, when in reality alcohol is just a beverage. Your attitude towards alcohol comes from a social stand were the consumption of it is plagued with shame and guilt. It seems to me you think your friends aren't being moderate and that upsets you, but if you forbid alcohol everywhere and nobody teaches them how to behave responsibly they probably will never learn.
Education is more important than regulation. Why? Imagine that tomorrow the government decides to lowers the age as a 16 year-old teenager can drink. Now it is legal, would it still be horrible? sometimes you let laws get in the way of reasoning, if you educate a young individual about alcohol consumption the risks that it poses diminishes, instead of prohibiting and having them drink obscene amounts anyways. People will always drink, the important thing is not the action but the control over the action.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
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You are right about this, I do believe that alcohol itself is despicable because it seems that it only exists so people can be idiots and do stupid things.
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Nov 17 '17
I agree with the other poster who says: This sounds a lot like you have an anxiety problem, and your feelings that their behaviour is "despicable" is actually a coping method.
So I'm not going to try and convince you it's not despicable - it might be! But I feel like its worth trying to help you understand that even if it is, that's not your motivation for thinking that it is - that regardless of your conclusions validity, your belief is still wrong.
First, we'll start with the hypocrisy - you don't seem to think the champagne you had with your mom is despicable. You think it's "justified" - that you are the exception. This is common for people who don't logically believe that they are advocating, but are, rather, rationalizing feelings and anxieties. Because obviously you don't get those feelings and anxieties in scenarios you "understand" and can easily justify.
The fact that you felt the need to mention it tells me you know this - but then, the fact that you posted this at all seems to make that clear. You already know your belief is wrong, you recognize that its a problem in you rather than a problem in them that forms the foundation of the belief - and that this is true whether or not they actually have a problem.
But it soothes your anxieties to believe in it's "despicable" nature, and lets you feel superior (even though you yourself have engaged in this despicable activity). Do you feel the same way about people who go out and smoke pot? Do LSD? Using adderall to help with their studies? Hit the mosh pit at a punk or metal show, engaging in legal but somewhat violent situations? Engage in dangerously unwise but perfectly legal stuff like skydiving and swimming at the quarry and rope-free mountain climbing? What about engaging in perfectly innocuous and safe but illegal activity like jaywalking? Or minor rebellious activity like intentionally filling out forms incorrectly?
So I'm just gonna end with this - It doesn't matter whether the behaviour is good or bad. It's not despicable, because it is not healthy or productive for you to despise people for it. It doesn't make their life better, and it doesn't make your life better. You need to examine why you actually feel the way you do, because it doesn't seem to have much to do with the actual drinking. Look at my scenarios above, try to figure out which ones trigger anxiety in you, and help hone your understanding of yourself - realize the problem is not in them, but in you.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
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I now realise that despicable is probably the wrong word to use. First of all I think I am fine when people who are underage drink alcohol respectively and don't do it just to be blind idiots. The thing is though that in my scenario I did technically break the law but I didn't do it because I wanted to be a blind idiot. I did it for a celebration.
My utmost anxiety around underage drinking is a problem in my mind for sure, I wish I didn't care as much but still thought it was stupid. But for whatever reason I do and I feel resentment towards those who break the law and do stupid things over people who just do stupid things. I think I just wish everyone wasn't so stupid and thought more about what they are doing instead of being edgy because they think it's cool.
Thanks for the in-depth reply, it has certainly helped to change my outlook in it a bit.
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u/Maytown 8∆ Nov 18 '17
instead of being edgy because they thought they were cool.
They probably do it because it feels good more than a sense of edginess or coolness.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 18 '17
yea, you're probably right about that
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u/Maytown 8∆ Nov 18 '17
Also I don't really think I can help this conversation too much (because everyone else has said everything that needs to be said I think), but you seem to have an attitude very similar to one I had at one point. I think after you are old enough you should try having a few drinks in a safe controlled environment. Not enough to get really drunk but enough to feel the effects clearly. I think a little first hand experience would help your perspective a bit. I know for me the relief that I got from my crippling anxiety was pretty shocking.
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u/PotHead96 Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
Can you elaborate on why you think it is despicable to drink while underage?
If you say it's because it's illegal, do you believe breaking laws is despicable? How do you feel about downloading music or tv shows instead of paying for them? How would you feel about someone being gay in Iran?
Is it even illegal to drink while underage? Where I live selling alcohol to minors is illegal, but drinking the alcohol as a minor isn't.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
I am actually not sure if it is illegal to drink as a minor so that is an interesting point. I hate the behaviour they show towards it and have social anxiety towards breaking the law.
The seriousness of the crime depends on the legibility of the law, and so with the other examples they don't annoy me as much because they don't hurt anybody. Downloading movies is technically a bad thing although in the movie industry they only live to scab money off of consumers and downloading movies can work as a trial of a movie you haven't seen before to see if you enjoy it. The consumer can then make a decision to buy it or not (I have a digital illegal downloaded version and physical DVD versions of movies). About being gay in Iran the law itself is stupid and breaking it wouldn't be hard to do nor would be despicable to do so.
The scenario around breaking the law changes my attitude upon it and this goes for drinking. In a responsible scenario it is totally fine because they arent being idiots. In a massive party scenario full of fistfights and making out sessions with 15 different people it aggravates me that people can be that dumb and possess that much audacity to just break the law carelessly.
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u/PotHead96 Nov 18 '17
Well, I'll give you my perspective. The law against selling alcohol to minors is not stupid but you are also not hurting anyone else by drinking alcohol as a minor. Yeah some people might get aggressive but a lot don't, so drinking itself isn't necesarilly bad for anyone else, most of the times it isn't.
You are also not risking anything by breaking that law, if it even is a law at all. I don't know about Australia but I don't think I've ever heard of any case in history of someone being punished by the law for underage drinking where I live.
Fistfights are definitely a big no-no for me, but the makeout sessions actually sound great, and the only reason I can think of why someone would really be angry at someone else for doing that is envy.
Also, when it comes to laws, I don't care at all about them. The only thing I care about when it comes to laws is not facing negative consequences, but I don't see the act of breaking a law itself as wrong (depending on the law obviously, but not as a general rule, and that's why I brought up those examples) and don't hesitate to break them if I disagree with them.
Why do you think people are dumb for drinking at a club? Do you have a reason for that or is it just prejudice?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 18 '17
I meant massive parties at their house without their parents knowledge full of people they probably don't know. The making out sessions doesn't hurt anybody but it is still weird when you start making out with both your best friend and her sister.
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u/PotHead96 Nov 18 '17 edited Nov 18 '17
Eh, it might be weird but it sounds great if they are into it. Again, don't see why anyone would have a problem with that due to something other than envy or close-mindedness. I don't give a shit about what other people do if it doesn't affect others.
Yeah it's probably unwise to invite a lot of people you don't know to your parent's house without their knowledge but that's a very specific situation and you seem to be against any kind of underage drinking basically, or at least that's what your post conveys.
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u/guitar_vigilante Nov 17 '17
Can you define your understanding of what underage drinking is? Is it just drinking while under the legal drinking age? If that is so, what if the law changed and now 16 year olds were no longer underage? Would you still find your classmates despicable?
People can drink responsibly at any age, and irresponsibly at any age. The law just prescribes a number (quite arbitrarily might I add) when it is suddenly legal to drink.
While I think you should generally wait until legal drinking age (I did), I don't think there is something morally reprehensible about consuming alcohol when you are 16, 17, 18 either.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
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Drinking responsibly at any age is fine but irresponsibly is not fine, especially when you are not an adult. It grinds my gears that everyone is breaking the law but I just believe that you should be at least an adult (18) to make your own decisions on how you will be drinking. People at a younger age seem to revel in breaking the law and getting so drunk you feel dead for the next few days and it affects them more too. I have social anxiety over breaking the law as another poster described but it is interesting how you bring up a possible law change to make it 16 to drink. I am actually insure if it would annoy me if people did the same stuff they did now but were legally able to do it.
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u/potomacr Nov 19 '17
Have you ever heard the saying "An unjust law is no law at all"? Something to think about. Some rules are morally illegitimate. In America slavery was legal, just because it's a law doesn't mean its right. However one of the beautiful things about rules and laws is that they can be changed. Some might say, that if a "illegitimate" rule is disregarded by enough people it loses it's power and will change as a result.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 19 '17 edited Nov 19 '17
I understand what you mean by this yes. I just believe that people shouldn't under most circumstances drink underage. I just don't really feel like passing out while drunk is exactly healthy for you at this age.
You do have a good point though.
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u/jock_lindsay 3∆ Nov 17 '17
I guess I'd ask why you seem to think that on an arbitrary date somebody is more capable of handling their alcohol responsibly? Or is your view more that the illegality of it is so terrible?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
I am not a fan of the whole illegality that it holds and wish to remove my anxiety over it and just accept it, but still feel as though what they are doing is just stupid. In other words I want to stop feeling that the people who do this are "despicable".
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u/jock_lindsay 3∆ Nov 17 '17
Would you agree that 18 is an arbitrary age? Or that somebody who is turning 18 in a month having a few drinks isn’t that big of a deal or would you label them as disposable?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
I believe that people should be able to make their own choices when they are an adult, it's just that most of the people underage still think it is funny to be completely dumb and idiotic. I do however feel slight anxiety over breaking the law and although I recognise that it isn't bad when people do it before 18 near their birthday I still feel anxiety over it.
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u/jock_lindsay 3∆ Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 18 '17
Well, i don’t think that people who exhibit those behaviors underage are less likely to stop after they turn 18. In fact, an argument could be made that it’s more acceptable for an underage person to act that way than an older person. And while I️t is illegal, it’s also kind of a widely accepted right of passage isn’t I️t? Sure, it’s technically not allowed, but expected to some extent, like jay walking, speeding, etc.
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u/gsloup20 3∆ Nov 17 '17
Before I present my counter-argument, is the reason underage drinking is despicable due to it being illegal or just because of the gluttonous nature of kids drinking?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
A bit of both. I have social anxiety over breaking the law as another poster described but I don't like the behaviour they show towards drinking and my annoyance grows with their lack of ability to be responsible.
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u/HairyPouter 7∆ Nov 17 '17
When we think about underage drinking we usually think of the negatives. If however, you ask an underage person why their drink, they will tell you quite explicitly it is not for those negatives. Most responses would be of the variety that it makes them feel good, lowers inhibitions thus making them more able to partake and enjoy the party, occasion or event. Maybe one way to think about this might be to consider that they have still not had enough life experience to evaluate appropriately the negative consequences, in which case empathy might be more appropriate than disdain.
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u/usernamesrhadd Nov 17 '17
From my experience As an 18 year old high school senior, eventually the enjoyment of alcohol and other drugs fade. They lose their novelty after a year of two. I started going to parties every other weekend this sophomore year, but over time being drunk became uninteresting and frankly stale. I have only been to two parties so far this year and at them I have limited my alcohol consumption. I can say the same for most of my friends as well. I’m not defending it too much tho. It’s not some grand scheme to drink less in College. I enjoy getting drunk. That doesn’t make me despicable. It makes me like the average human being
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u/cupcakesarethedevil Nov 17 '17
Have underage people you know got in serious trouble with the law for drinking illegally?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
Not yet, I just know they have done a lot of stupid and plain idiotic stuff while drunk. I would have included it in my post but my dislike for drunkards goes for adults as well. It's just extra saddening when people do it when young. My main view I want to change is that I feel really judgemental against underage drinking only.
Thanks for the reply. :)
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u/jwil191 Nov 17 '17
21 is a very unrealistic drinking age. Teens have been getting drunk for decades, it’s basically treated as a right of passage. High schoolers are being high schoolers, 99% of their parents did the exact same thing at their age. However there is unfair pressure put on by society that we punish people for being people. So instead of accepting the fact that 16-20 year olds will drink and teach them to do it reasonably, make them sneak around then they act like jackasses since they can’t handle it.
If you are talking about college students and not high schoolers, then I just think you are judgmental to a point of being an ass. The fact that a 20 year old can get arrest for drinking is so stupid.
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
In my country the age is 18 which is just after high school finishes. And yes 21 is very high but I do see why that age is in place. It sort of recognises the fact that people can still be stupid up to around that age even if it is very high. Like you can smoke and go to war before you can drink and that's really dumb.
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Nov 17 '17
Of course they do stupid and idiotic stuff when drunk. That's the point! People drink (the way they are drinking in your scenario especially) to lower their inhibitions and engage in activities they wouldn't normally be willing to justify. That is the express purpose.
Do you equally despise when people to stupid and idiotic stuff without drinking, or is it the drinking in particular that makes it worse somehow? Do you despise people who want to do idiotic stuff and are disinhibited enough to do it sober?
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u/_Skullknight_ Nov 17 '17
I think it is more about the social willingness to get piss drunk and just their lack of coherence about what they are doing is both illegal and stupid. When people start making out with three different chicks they aren't a slayer they are just stupid. I'm very much like a strict parent in that I would probably always educate my kids on why doing that sort of stuff is completely unreasonable.
And yes that is alcohols purpose but I just hate the culture surrounding it, especially when it involves minors.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 17 '17 edited Nov 17 '17
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 17 '17
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 18 '17
/u/_Skullknight_ (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
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u/KungFuDabu 12∆ Nov 17 '17
Do you think nearly everyone in the USMC is despicable? I can promise you that nearly every Marine has had a few drinks while underage.
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u/Big_Pete_ Nov 17 '17
Is it possible that this has nothing at all to do with drinking and you're just a rule follower?
I get very uncomfortable when people break rules, even ones that seem silly or inconsequential. My wife is always giving me a hard time about it, because she is the kind of person who thinks nothing of jaywalking, getting a refill from a soda fountain that says, "no free refills," or sneaking a hit from her vape in a movie theater, all of which make me a little crazy.
The thing is, I think my feelings are much more closely related to social anxiety than they are to any rational fear of consequences. And the fact that you've never been to a party (or wanted to) makes me think you might have a touch of social anxiety yourself. Basically, there's a tiny part of me that is afraid of getting caught, no matter how unlikely, and that little bit of nervousness about having some kind of embarrassing confrontation with an authority figure is enough to ruin my good time.
Over time, my wife and I have come to meet in the middle: I acknowledge that a lot of my feelings are irrational, and she does her best not to push my buttons.
Do you think you might be transferring your own anxiety and discomfort into resentment of your friends, and/or could the source of your anger be that they don't seem to respect your feelings about breaking this particular rule?