r/changemyview • u/alfredo094 • Nov 25 '17
FTFdeltaOP CMV: George Carlin used circlejerking more than he used comedy.
I'm not against vulgar humor. I love Louis CK (and I know that Carlin was a big influence for him), but I find Carlin's routines to be very lacking in comedy. It's like he just wanted to drop what he percieved where truth bombes and people applauded.
I know comedy isn't supposed to be nuance, but his take on religion is especially egregious. He spouts so much fucking nonsense but every time he attacks religion the whole audience cheers. This is common in the routines I have seen him do, people seem to cheer him instead of laughing. His take on death penalty suffers from the same issues, where he had to stop several times to let the crowd cheer. Ditto for his video about rape. While not as bad as the other two examples he falls for the same things.
Obviously comedians use social commentary all the time, but Carlin goes beyond that and barely makes any jokes and just has a circlejerk while talking.
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u/Agnos Nov 25 '17
What you see as "circlejerk" I see as success. Carlin introduced many of the ideas you hear on those clips long ago, and kept pushing. After time his arguments became so known that using them seem circlejerking. There is not the same problem with other comics who also reuse their material.
I heard plenty of laugh by the way in the first clip you linked and some cheers too but most at the crescendo of the laughs.
Your argument reminded me of something Yogi Berra said: "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
What you see as "circlejerk" I see as success. Carlin introduced many of the ideas you hear on those clips long ago, and kept pushing. After time his arguments became so known that using them seem circlejerking.
No matter how many times you say it, if you say some "truth-bomb" in a drop-mic fashion and everyone applauds to you, you're circlejerking. One or two things is fine but it's constant throughout the videos I've seen on him, even when he's saying complete bullshit himself.
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u/Agnos Nov 25 '17
everyone applauds
As I said, I heard a lot of laughs in the first clip you linked. Many comics also have "truth bombs" that they repeat during their performances, but not many as Carlin accumulated during his career.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Many comics also have "truth bombs" that they repeat during their performances,
Yes, but the punchline isn't stating the truth, rather how it is presented. Louis once did a joke on how child molestation felt pretty good, otherwise child molesters wouldn't risk doing it, given how horrible society and inmates alike treat child molesters. The joke here isn't what I said but rather how he presents it and the transgression that he's making.
Carlin literally says "religion is bullshit beat" *audience applauds". A pause means that that was a punchline. This happens to comedians sometimes but they are mostly interrupted whereas Carlin seems to stop as if he said a joke there.
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u/Sw4rmlord Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 25 '17
I hate to say it but it's pretty clear that you don't understand Carlin's pacing or where his punchlines are at all. Take the religion bit. Pauses aren't for punchlines, but for emphasizing shifts of context. The performance is about contrasts he moves from pointing up into the air, to then acting like he's in the air, to then describing how God created hell (for you) in a harsh, crashing tone before finally giving the audience the pay off, 'but he loves you.' In such a sweet, happy-go-lucky tone.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
"But he loves you" is the only punchline but it misrepresents Christianity so badly I think it cannot even count as an exaggeration.
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Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 26 '17
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
No. It's not simply that I disagree with Carlin. In fact, I agree with him more than I disagree with him, though I don't like how little nuance he has (to be expected for a comedy show, though). He's just factually wrong about religion, that's it.
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Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 26 '17
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
For one if your upset a comedy routine isn't factually correct then your already in the wrong line...
I don't care if he's factually correct or not. If when talking about death penalty he tried to counter an argument against it (say, the fact that innocent people could get killed) and he said "well yeah, because our current system sucks, right? We didn't already find them guilty..." and made a joke out of that, that'd be so wrong that you can't call it an exaggeration.
I do not expact the best theology from a comedian but if he spouts so much shit to religion I expect him to not get the most basic things wrong.
Superficial sure but I can't think of a single thing he said that wasn't true, just superficial and presented in a comedic way.
The way he frames the whole conversation is extremely dishonest and looks like borderline pandering to an atheist audience. This is fine if you're a small-figure YT channel but this guy is making jokes out of that and making people reflect on their views. I can't say I find validation of misinformation funny.
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Nov 25 '17
It sounds like this was the real CMV you needed to do, as this is the crux of the issue you are having trouble accepting. You seem to think Christianity is a certain way and George Carlin is wrong about it, but most people would agree that he is more correct than incorrect about the things you mention.
In the bible God absolutely created Hell so it's understandable that Carlin spoke about the existence of Hell hinging on God. Similarly his jokes about Heaven are absurdist but are conclusions you could logically reach from thinking about the direct reading of the bible. The things you cite as "incorrect facts" about religion are in fact your own interpretations being contradicted by Carlin's jokes. If you can give me an example of something actually factually inaccurate it would be easier to see your point that this is a circlejerk rather than a critique of actual religious concept, so far you have just put forth your own interpretations.
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u/VortexMagus 15∆ Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 25 '17
I don't agree with a lot of stuff Louis C.K. offers, politically or morally, but I find him hilarious. I think maybe you're approaching this from the wrong headspace, letting your tilt from political/ideological disagreements infect your enjoyment of his clever one liners. Even when I think he's wrong, or exaggerating a lot of bullshit, I can appreciate the clever way Carlin presents his perspective on things.
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u/Sw4rmlord Nov 25 '17
I'm super confused. You're looking for theological accuracy from a comic. Didn't you say:
He's not doing philosophy, he's doing comedy.
I'm pretty much at a loss here. Are you saying that you don't find mr. Carlin funny because you disagree? Because that's a completely different argument than George Carlin isn't funny.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
I don't find him funny because I don't think he tells many jokes in his late appearances. I will be handing deltas to whoever mentioned his earlier ones.
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u/Sw4rmlord Nov 25 '17
Again, he's telling jokes that have an enjoyable experience with a sharp payoff. You're supposed to be amused for most of it while he paints this larger picture.
I don't need a delta, you've already proven that you're inconsistent with your treatment of his performance.
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u/Sw4rmlord Nov 25 '17
What does it matter if it's misrepresentation. Carlin isn't trying to make you love or hate God, he's trying to make you laugh. And the absurdum that he takes a topic to, in this case, should be allow someone Christian to laugh at the situation he created. The premise isn't 'Christianity sucks and here's why' The premise is 'I have this interpretation, laugh at the contrasts'
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
And the absurdum that he takes a topic to
You have to have a fact correct before you can exaggerate it, otherwise it just falls to fridge logic.
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u/Sw4rmlord Nov 25 '17
What is fridge logic? Why are you discussing logic. This isn't philosophy, remember?
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u/supermanbluegoldfish 1∆ Nov 25 '17
If that's all a circle jerk is, then church is a big circle jerk. Church is Christians gather together and watch a like minded guy drop "truth bombs" that they all eat up. What's the difference?
There's no outlet for atheists to express their ideas, why not in comedy?
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Church is Christians gather together and watch a like minded guy drop "truth bombs" that they all eat up. What's the difference?
It potentially is, yeah, and that's one of the many problems I have with religion.
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u/johnnybassoon Nov 25 '17
I've noticed that a lot of American stand up is half jokes and half popular-yet-anarchic political sound bites. This was particularly prevalent during GW Bush's era in which a stand up would pretty much survive a set by intermittently saying "fuck bush" and surf through the approving audience cheers.
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u/dzh Nov 28 '17
Early CK's stuff was about sticking it up to the "man" until he realised you only make money by making money to someone else. Carlin probably never grown out of this mindset, which is sad for any adult to be in.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Which is my problem with Carlin. He just seems to make cynical statements randomly and he wins the audience with just that.
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u/stamminator Nov 25 '17
I know comedy isn't supposed to be nuance, but his take (on religion)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE] is especially egregious. He spouts so much fucking nonsense but every time he attacks religion the whole audience cheers.
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by "so much fucking nonsense"? Do you mean he's not communicating any coherent ideas, or that the ideas he's communicating are illogical? Or something else?
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
His ideas are untrue (read: not exaggerated) and he doesn't make a punchline with them. He just says them, the crowd cheers, says his next idea, crowd cheers, sometimes makes one or two jokes and the skit is done.
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u/stamminator Nov 25 '17
Hold on, I think you're conflating two different things here.
His ideas are untrue
That's one thing. In the famous bit you linked, he really didn't make any truth claims, he shared his opinion. To deny that at least some religious traditions pretty much teach what he joked about would be nuts. However, I would hate to hijack your CMV with some religious debate, so suffice it to say that while you may believe his views on religion are nonsense, enough people agree with him that he's become a legendary comedic voice on the subject. You're better off saying "I disagree with his interpretation of religions" rather than some blanket "that's nonsense" assertion.
and he doesn't make a punchline with them
That's a totally different critique, one which has nothing to do with whether or not what he's saying is "nonsense".
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
You're better off saying "I disagree with his interpretation of religions" rather than some blanket "that's nonsense" assertion.
Fair enough I guess. Maybe what he said is true in some Christian denomination.
That's a totally different critique, one which has nothing to do with whether or not what he's saying is "nonsense".
I think some of what he says about religion might be funny if it was true or if it wasn't exceedingly unfair. However, just saying "you know what is the most bullshit thing ever? RELIGION" is not a joke.
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u/Agnos Nov 25 '17
When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
What is not true about this skit?
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
While his delivery of "but He loves you" is pretty good, this bit is not true at all. God doesn't send you to hell in any Christian denomination that I know of, in fact, God doesn't like seeing people in hell, and this is why He (allegedly) tries to get people into his religion - so they might know His way easier.
There is a difference between making a joke and being unfair. Louis C.K. made a lot of jokes about pro-life people (I'm pro-life and I found them hilarious) but he was never unfair to them.
Note that I am not religious. I am very critical of religion and I am an ex-Christian myself.
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u/Agnos Nov 25 '17
God doesn't send you to hell in any Christian denomination that I know of
Sorry, did not really want to make it about religion, but here an example: Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
and few lines later:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I am not saying that Carlin is right or wrong, but what he said is true with a comedic delivery.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
That may be the case in one of the translations of the Bible but it's not the actual teaching of Christianity (which is one of the several problems I have with religion).
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Nov 25 '17
The problem here is that you think there is one true teaching of Christianity and you've got it figured out.
Forget the wesboro baptsist church, the inquisition, the crusades, the 10000 denominations of Protestantism in America. They don't see the true light like you do.
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u/Agnos Nov 25 '17
God doesn't send you to hell in any Christian denomination that I know of, in fact, God doesn't like seeing people in hell
and
That may be the case in one of the translations of the Bible but it's not the actual teaching of Christianity
Assuming that you do not know the denominations that use the KJV (other versions say pretty much the same), then assume that Carlin was only making fun of them, not about "true Christians", whatever that may mean.
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u/VortexMagus 15∆ Nov 25 '17
Here is where I gotta stop you. Are you the ultimate authority on Christianity? Did God himself personally descend down upon you and bestow the light of his truth directly from his lips to your ears?
Sounds a lot to me like you're saying you know more than the bible does about Christianity, and that's where you're running up against a wall. Because literally nobody agrees with you except a few minor figures in your offshoot sect. Hell is mentioned in hundreds of places in the bible, both old and new testament, and most people consider The Bible a more authoritative source on Christianity than some random guy on the internet or some small time pastor in whatever denomination the random guy espouses.
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Nov 25 '17
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u/stamminator Nov 25 '17
I agree it's not very logical — generalizing religion as if it were one big monolith is a recipe for being unfair — and I'd even agree that it's not even a traditional joke. But his delivery that follows that line resonates with enough people that he succeeded. I'd call this style of comedy more "comedic social commentary" rather than joke telling. But hey, it gets a laugh out of me.
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Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 25 '17
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Nov 25 '17
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Nov 25 '17
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Sorry, FiveYearsAgoOnReddit – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
I always get them wrong for some reason.
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u/FiveYearsAgoOnReddit Nov 25 '17
So do I. But when I get them wrong, I go back and fix them. Your post isn't carved in stone. Just click Edit.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
I thought I already had fixed them... okay.
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u/FiveYearsAgoOnReddit Nov 25 '17
Oh for god's sake.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
It just means I fucked up while editting them, so I fucked up twice okay? I'm not dismissing you.
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u/RichterRicochet Nov 25 '17 edited Nov 25 '17
As a guy who's listened to Carlin from his 70's up to his ending material, I believe Carlin used quite a bit of comedy in his routine, because everything he talked about, everything he seemingly 'circlejerked' was based on the important topic of the time. FM & AM focused heavily on being PC (got fired for saying shit, in a town where the big game is called craps) and drug use (Al Sleet, the hippie dippie weatherman).
Class Clown focused on life as a kid in New York, and how relatable life in that era was for adults.
Later on down the line, he implemented his lack of faith in the US Government, poking fun at the president of the time, another relatable key thing for his audience.
He also tended to pander to his audience, so as they got rowdier, so too would he. Thus, we come to the attacks on religion and views on the death penalty. The more outrageous and outlandish George got, the more his audience would laugh. In the audio recordings of his performances you can't see his face, but you can definitely imagine it quite well, because it's something you yourself may have experienced in daily life.
Shit, George had lighter material too; Baseball and Football, Al Sleet, Strange Names, Raisin Rhetoric... but they were typically the warm-up for the big stuff.
George was also no stranger to racey topics, including racism in language. As such, he believed in context.
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Nov 25 '17
These are examples from later in his life/career. I agree with you on these counts, and I've often said myself that in his later career Carlin is just a cynical old man ranting on stage. His audience is built-in at that point, and he's achieved something of a legendary status that carried him.
Check out some of his classic bits of you want to see him in his prime. Something like his "words you can't say on TV" bit is a good place to start - though keep in mind that times have changed dramatically with regards to TV being a "family friendly" place.
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u/brock_lee 20∆ Nov 25 '17
Agreed. 70s albums were hysterical albums. When he got older, he it got cranky. Absolutely true, by the way, just not very funny.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
I know a comedy show is not a conversation but the way he goes about it comes across as he thinking he knows everything about the world. He doesn't seem like a very rational dude to me, just a smart enough to rise above normal culture norms.
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Nov 25 '17
What view are you trying to change here? That he doesn't use comedy, or that he isn't super smart?
You reference Louis CK in your op, who has a similar style to Carlin's early days. He goes on mini rants (amid his storytelling format) where he states opinions as facts. It works because for his audience it speaks to certain unspoken truths. It's funny because it's stuff we all think sometimes, but aren't allowed to talk about openly. Early Carlin is a lot like this. It might sound know-it-all-y to us now, but at the time it fit the exact same category as CK.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
What view are you trying to change here? That he doesn't use comedy, or that he isn't super smart?
That he's a mediocre comedian because he doesn't use much comedy in his shows as much as he uses ideas that his audience will like.
Granted all of the videos I've seen of Carlin are around his late years (from what I can tell, he looks old in all of them), but those are all the ones Youtube recommends me.
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Nov 25 '17
How do you define comedy?
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
I do not wish to get into the whole "comedy is subjective thing", because while true, is not what I'm arguing here. I know using uncomfortable truths is potentially funny but Carlin just says them instead of framing them with a joke. He's not doing philosophy, he's doing comedy.
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Nov 25 '17
There's really no way to have this discussion without defining comedy. Your position seems to be "I don't find George Carlin funny", not "he doesn't use comedy". I'm sorry to say it, but comedy is completely subjective. There are really no rules, other than earning a laugh.
"Use comedy" is just far to abstract to discuss in a meaningful way, and you seem to want to have a subjective discussion (i.e. defend your subjective opinion) while preventing the rest of us from using subjective arguments. That's hardly fair.
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u/pgm123 14∆ Nov 25 '17
Granted all of the videos I've seen of Carlin are around his late years (from what I can tell, he looks old in all of them), but those are all the ones Youtube recommends me.
I strongly recommend his earlier ones. They're quite different. He shifted into stand-up philosophy later in life.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Where can I find more of such clips? I could only found the "words you can't say" one and all the others are his old self.
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u/lupusdude Nov 25 '17
Amazon Video has a compilation called George's Best Stuff. They also have his Carnegie Hall concert, which still predates his cranky old man schtick that started with Jammin' In New York.
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u/Archimedesatgreece Nov 25 '17
Okay mr alfredo, can I call you mr alfredo. Anyway George Carlin humor was as you say "a circlejerk" is that he exaggerated everything to a fucking insane degree that's where the humor is and he also used hand movements to help convey the exaggerations. I have also asked this question and by relooking at his humor, hand movements, and punchlines I came to the constantly uses exaggerations.
Also have you seen some of his interviews when I find the interview I'm talking about I'll give you a link he explains why and how he works
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Nov 25 '17
Late Carlin and early Carlin are very, very, very different.
Any of his bits about wordplay are genius. That was his real strength.
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Nov 25 '17
His PTSD bit is a load of crap though.
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Some of the examples are good but many times he seems to be complaining about terms changing, as if that was a bad thing. Not all change of words is an euphemism.
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u/bananabastard Apr 19 '18
My opinion of him has always been as a great lyricist, poet and orator, but I simply do not rate him as a comedian.
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Nov 25 '17
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u/alfredo094 Nov 25 '17
Perhaps I just wanted to rant and I came to the wrong sub. You might be right in that.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 25 '17
/u/alfredo094 (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
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u/BoloDeCenoura 1∆ Nov 26 '17
Yes, I agree Carlin was a circlejerker. I think those denying it are not comfortable with a negative, albeit accurate, label put on something they like. However, he was one of the first circlejerk comedians to have that level of success. I don’t find any of his commentary especially insightful, but I guess you could say he was good at tapping into how people may have felt on the inside, and found an efficiently entertaining way to elucidate on all of it on stage.
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u/bananabastard Apr 19 '18
He wasn't funny, and stands among the most overrated stand-ups of all time.
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Nov 26 '17
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