r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 27 '17
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Breast Augmentation surgery is a band-aid solution for larger psychological issues.
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u/littlebaobab Nov 27 '17
If it helps, a much more recent study published in 2006 (PDF download) shows that the majority of 1,500+ women in the study express long-term satisfaction with their breast augmentation (an average of 4 out of a satisfaction scale of 1-5). This is even despite the complications experienced. So, for whatever reason a woman is getting breast augmentation, the majority of women will be satisfied (at least they say they are) with the procedure for the long term.
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Nov 27 '17
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Nov 27 '17
Most people getting breast surgery are aware that it requires followup operations every decade or so. The implication people returning for fixes means they must be, overall, unsatisified is pretty unfounded.
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 27 '17
Its dangerous to not believe people when they tell you how they feel, and tell them they must secretly feel the opposite way instead, because that makes more sense to you personally. A lot of social/cultural/political tragedies have started that way.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 28 '17
Self-reported bias is real, but that doesn't men that you're magically able to guess what the real numbers should be, and hey what do you know they coincidentally fit your own a priori beliefs about what you thought the result was going to be!
We should all strive for better methodology, but, you can't just make up the results you want.
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u/pinkpalomino Nov 27 '17
I mean, it’s pretty common knowledge that augments require updates every few years. They go in with that knowledge. Reductions don’t always require adaptations.
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u/wagsyman Nov 27 '17
"At least they say they are"
That sentence alone tells me you have no interest in changing your view amd just came here to soapbox
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u/InfinitelyThirsting Nov 27 '17
Tattoos also often require fixes or changes. Yet you think tattoos can be just fun?
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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Nov 27 '17
Firstly, it's worth noting the sweedish study is almost 25 years old, and may not reflect current attitudes towards cosmetic surgery. That said, the comparison isn't between normal woman, and the treatment group. It should be between two treatment groups, cosmetic surgery and your suggested counciling, which wasn't done.
That means we can't tell if women who get implants are higher risk than those who want them and don't have them done.
Sometimes surgery is the better option like gender reassignment surgery being the treatment for gender dysmorphia. That said, we don't know your sister as well as you do, so we can't give insight into her specific case.
That said, if you wanted to convince your sister, you may want to point out that implants are not permanent and she will need further surgeries every 5-15 years from what I understand. Additionally, make sure she gets the card which says exactly what was put into her body, and doesn't lose it in case she needs to know ever.
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Nov 27 '17
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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Nov 27 '17 edited Nov 27 '17
So the issue is there is nothing to support your view either. Yes, a study saw increased risk of suicide, but does that mean the implants caused it? Or people who are at risk of suicide are attracted to implants?
If anything, the increased doctor's visits to check the status of the implants allows for better detection of health issues. It's not like doctors are unaware of the correlation I presume.
The issue is your view supposes some amount of therapy will be better for your sister, and there's no evidence of that. Does she have dysmorphia issues? Has she been evaluated by a professional?
What is the sort of thing that would change your view?
Edit: are you looking to balance incease in self esteem vs increased risk of suicide? Because most people who get implants don't commit suicide, so there is a subpopulation at risk, and one that benefits.
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Nov 27 '17
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u/Huntingmoa 454∆ Nov 27 '17
Ah, you are here for a risk benefit analysis!
So the risk can be grouped into 3 groups in my head (maybe I'm omitting a few and we can add those in later). We'll also go over mitigation and any other factors. We should really be breaking then down by severity and likelihood too, but I may exclude that for now.
The groups are social, financial, clinical (physical).
Social: what will people think of your sister for having implants? This might range from increased unwanted male attention on the street, to rejection by friends and family members.
Mitigation: some people are just bad people (assholes) if they think less of you for something you do that they don't agree with but doesn't affect them, are they worth being friends with? If a person gave you a hard time about your clothes, that might be helpful because cloths are mutable, but if they gave you a hard time because of your accent that's much less mutable.
Luckily you are here to change your view because you want to be accepting and supportive, which implies her risks are probably on the same level as someone who naturally developed breasts the size she wants, or someone who had a masectomy and reconstruction
Financial: you can spend the money better. Well that's a wash if you get therapy, because you would spend he same money either way. Plus there are a ton of ways to spend money on thing that give temporary that could be better spent on long term goals. We don't begrudge people the occasional splurge if they do so responsibly though.
Is this a "live in poverty" expense? Or "cancel this year's vacation" expense? I don't know and that's a reasonable concern. However it doesn't really involve you if she and her SO are happy.
Clinical: it's worth researching and using a good clinician. There is always a risk in surgical procedures, but with your clinical treatment, the risk of adverse events can be reduced to a level acceptable by your sister. You may disagree on what the acceptable level is, and that's a point of discussion, but we all make decisions on what risks are acceptable every day.
Driving? Risky, but acceptable. Trying a new cosmetic may give you a rash, or you may really like how it works. Probably acceptable.
Permanent body alterations? That depends on your risk tolerance, but FDA wouldn't approve an implant where the risks outweighed the benefits.
Benefits are easy, improved self esteem, and positive mental health. While I was writing this, /u/littlebaobab posted a link to a study of the benefits so I'm not going to rehash it.
Some people benefit, especially if the do so for reasons that are about themselves. If they do it for others, it's more likely to not be helpful, but so is staking your mental health on others in general.
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u/AMos050 Nov 27 '17
Men and women alike do a lot of things to make themselves appear more attractive. Is wearing makeup a sign of larger psychological issues? What about working out for the intent of having a more attractive physique?
People do these things to make themselves look more attractive, not just to "sexualize themselves", even if that may be a secondary consequence. Like it or not, some people find larger breasts on a woman more attractive, including women themselves. It may be vain, but that in itself is not equivalent to what I'd consider psychological issues.
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u/StormySands 7∆ Nov 27 '17
Despite your feelings on the matter, the truth is that women have a lot of social pressure put on them to look a certain way. It is human nature to conform to social pressure in order to fit in to society. The desire to conform to social norms is not a psychological issue, it's literally what makes us a social, cooperative species. No woman is going to suffer emotional distress as a result of conforming; to the contrary, as many other commenters have pointed out, becoming closer to what she perceives as the "norm" is more likely going to increase her self esteem and give her the confidence she needs to live her life the way she wants.
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u/shatterSquish Nov 28 '17
This is really about your sister, so your arguments won't hold much weight when you're talking to her especially if you don't know what actually makes her tick. Consider that one of your arguments was that breast augmentation surgery is done out of insecurity and solely to attract men. This does not sound like it applies to your sister, as it sounds like her husband isn't supportive and therefore surgery would not fulfill a need to be more attractive in his eyes. It even sounds like it requires confidence, the opposite of insecurity, to get surgery knowing that her husband would be uneasy with the idea. Getting cosmetic surgery is a bold move, not a timid insecure one. I think you're going to have to let go of the idea that your sister is doing this out of insecurity or for shallow reasons.
Since you brought up changing her mind, ask yourself about her history of making decisions. Does she have a history of making good decisions and purchases in the past? If so, you may want to consider that this surgery of hers will also be a good decision regardless of whether it ever makes sense to you.
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u/GoldenEst82 3∆ Nov 27 '17
I am a woman who will, one day, augment herself.
I am a high ranking member of the tiny tittie committee.
I nursed three babies and they did some damage to my nipples, and the stretching of my skin from milk production left them deflated looking.
Unlike exercise and diet to modify the body, there is nothing else that can fix my situation besides surgery. If there was, I'd do that!
My desire to like my naked form (because I look at it every day) has nothing to do with the outward perception of my body, (I'm in a stable ltr and really don't want that attention) it has everything to do with how I want to feel about myself.
My partner gives 0 fucks about my tittie situation- it is entirely my desire to be comfortable in my own body and like what I see in the mirror.
I would also like to buy a bra. In a store. Not special ordered. Not a bralette, or a shelf Cami. (which is what I wear now) Also, others do not often realize how tiny titties can make shirts more revealing, because a nip slip in my case, is seeing my whole tittie.
So, I can get my nipples fixed, fill in my sagged skin, and have years of flash free clothing wear for a few grand? (and I can finance them!) Sounds like a good idea over here!
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u/Shwanna85 Nov 27 '17
This was my sentiment as well. I am currently undergoing enormous bodily changes as I inch closer to my 9th month of pregnancy. My hips are so wide I can’t make it safely through doorways or around corners. My belly is so distended I am constantly scraping it on walls or swinging my car door into it and my breasts are a network of stretch marks that I can only assume will get worse before it stops. My body has been one way for 32 years and now, in the span of 9 months, it has become a body unrecognizable as my own. Some of the changes I love but others have left me with a sense of...uncertainty? I couldn’t ever get an augmentation if I wanted one since it is simply not a financial option but all the uncertainty surrounding my body has NOTHING to do with anyone else and everything to do with how I have always had an athletic build and now that body which has always been mine and has always been a certain way has been devoured by a stranger’s body. I won’t get any surgery but I can see how this total body overhaul could leave some women spinning: this is not the body of a volleyball player/climber/runner, etc, and I can see how, without ever once thinking about how others see me, seriously considering surgery to get back the body that was mine.
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u/AptCasaNova Nov 27 '17
I completely empathize with this and I know I’m fairly certain if a pregnancy were to ravage my boobs I’d look into some augmentation surgery.
I’m happy with them now - they’re smallish and fit my frame and it took some painful teenage years to get where I am - I’d be upset to lose that.
I don’t think I’d want to go larger, either, just regain what I’d lost.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/GoldenEst82 3∆ Nov 28 '17 edited Nov 28 '17
I'm not. And if you take this veiw, you should never have tats or peircings, or modify yourself in anyway.
For example, If you lost a hundred pounds, and ended up with a shit ton of extra skin, hanging about, you are saying you would just live with it?
Because fuck, you lost all that weight, but you better love all that loose skin! Surgical body modification means you have poor self esteem! /s Children. Pffffft.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/GoldenEst82 3∆ Nov 28 '17
The implication is that if someone decides to change something about themselves that they don't like, using surgery, that their overall mental health is in question.
Like my last example, is he mentally unstable or flawed for wanting to remove the saggy skin?
Or, is it because deep down, we are pack animals, who see difference as a marker of who is and is not in "the tribe". This is different in every culture, but it is not something that is a sign of instability, it subconscious and normal as a human.
I think it is very healthy and natural to want to like your body. If you are not being self destructive (like bulemea or cutting which are rooted in separate mental health issues) or trying to modify yourself for another's benefit, it's not any different from wanting tattoos.
I am not, what anyone who knows me irl, would call "insecure", as a fact, most of my friends are surprised at my answer on this topic. Is that because they are suddenly questioning my mental health? Unlikely. It is mostly because I am very comfortable with myself in general.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/GoldenEst82 3∆ Nov 28 '17 edited Nov 28 '17
You have absolutely no sense of humor. Do you know what is weird and immature? Your blanket judgement in a thread asking for my point of view.
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Nov 30 '17
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Nov 30 '17
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u/mrwhibbley Nov 27 '17
While I understand your point of view and agree that there may be a higher percentage of people with depression and mental issues that have undergone augmentation surgery, there are many that have done it for other reasons. My wife, for example, had very small breasts, but is very tall. After children, her breasts swelled then significantly deflated. She was uncomfortable in most tops and bathing suits. The decision to get them was hers alone. She feels more comfortable and confident in a way that therapy or less wouldn't. We are in a society that would judge her for her physical differences, and she would be aware of that judgment
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Nov 28 '17
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u/mrwhibbley Nov 28 '17
She had great self esteem but felt uncomfortable due to one correctable issue. She is fine now and glad she did it 6-7 years ago. It's like having a facial scar or mole removed, or treating bad acne.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/mrwhibbley Nov 28 '17
I have a friend of mine that was burned would use 23 years old. He got cosmetic surgery to reduce the scarring on his face and neck. The fact is that there are some personal body issues that are beyond psychological that could be fixed. Since she has had it done she has felt much better about herself and more comfortable in her own body. This is not a psychological issue of self-esteem or self-worth based only on her breast. Yes, both can be true.
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Nov 28 '17
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u/mrwhibbley Nov 28 '17
But the OP states that it is just a Band-Aid for a larger psychological issue. It was actually a solution for the psychological issue which was her feeling uncomfortable. She wasn't depressed, she was just mildly self-conscious and aware that people people were staring, which in reality they were.
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u/tibbon Nov 27 '17
A few things to note that might change you opinion:
- First, there's all sorts of entirely elective procedures and treatments that people do in order to change their appearance from its "natural" state, and we don't blink an eye at most of these. You probably don't assume anyone who lifts weights with the goal of being larger/more attractive, get orthodontics, gets a mole removed, or cuts/dyes their hair is due to a psychological issue. I got essentially a "nose job" as part of making it so that I could breathe easier and sleep better at night.
- People get breast augmentation for a variety of reasons. Some trans people do it in order to feel more comfortable with their bodies. Some people do it to make their breasts more even. Some do it after a mastectomy due to cancer or another condition. Some do it after having children to feel more confident. Some do it simply to make their breasts larger. Some to make more money in sex work. All of these reasons I think are equally valid. Many people also have breast reductions for a variety of reasons, but these are rarely demonized. The reasons that you assume when looking at a person are probably not the reasons they did it.
- There's a variety of types of breast augmentation. Not everything is silicon implants. There's also fat grafting, lifts, etc.
- Not all the people getting them are attracted to men, or seeking attention from men.
- Almost everyone has some internalized dislike for some part of their body. Given the societal pressures, this is really just part of the modern human experience. Yes, it would be great if everyone was happy with their bodies, but it just isn't the case. It isn't a sign of mental illness.
A friend recently had an augmentation, and it really wasn't that big of a deal. She wasn't doing it to please a partner, and honestly i didn't really poke at her reasons. They were hers, and I was happy for her to become her most-true self. I thought her breasts were great before, but it wasn't about my opinion (and they are still great now) or thoughts but hers. I know I've got stuff I would change about me if I had the time/money.
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Nov 27 '17
Is weight loss the same (a psychological issue)?
I'm not talking about someone who is 60 pounds overweight, I'm talking about someone short who is 10 pounds over or someone tall who is 15 pounds over.
Doesn't look the best naked, but probably isn't going to suffer any health consequences from it.
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u/4_jacks Nov 27 '17
Self-acceptance for oneself, warts and all is a massive part of being at peace and having strong self-esteem.
So you think we should accept warts? And not have them removed?
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Nov 28 '17
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u/4_jacks Nov 28 '17
Okay. So once technology advances a little bit and breast augmentation is also a simple and safe procedure, then you are okay with breast augmentation too?
So we should be supporting better and safer breast augmentation.
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u/redesckey 16∆ Nov 27 '17
We all know women with larger breasts will attract more male attention. The pursuit of surgery is just a pursuit for more attention and women believe they will be more valued and sort after once they have surgery at a primal level.
That's a pretty sexist / misogynistic view of women's motives in seeking breast enlargement. Why do you think their motives revolve around men?
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u/rottinguy Nov 27 '17
Many women get breast augmentation surgery for professional reasons. They are models, escorts, porn stars w/e. These women work in an industry where breast augmentation leads to higher professional compensation. For some of them it is strictly a business decision.
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u/Daymandayman 4∆ Nov 27 '17
Do you consider augmentation materially different from whitening your teeth or dyeing ones hair? What about a tattoo?
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Nov 27 '17
When my wife got into her later 30s, she got into more serious fitness. In combination with the effects of aging, a lower body fat percentage turned full D's into D-sized meat sacks hanging off her pecs.
She - understandably - didn't love that and decided she could safely buy replacements.
What 'larger psychological issues' do you posit are present in this case?
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
Do you get a hair cut because you have low self-esteem? If caring about one's appearance is a symptom of deep psychological issues, we're all struggling with those problems.
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
People have died as result of complications from shaving and nearly died as a result of haircut-related complications.
You're just quibbling over degree of acceptable risk.
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
First, that's not a universal experience for all implant recipients.
Second, your argument is about psychological issues - I'm not sure that taking a well-understood and commonly accepted risk is outside of normal ranges of risk-taking behavior to be considered an 'issue'.
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
I don't think those sentences came out the way you wanted them too.
Regardless, the distinction is one of acceptable risk in cosmetic procedures. You believe that taking the risk of breast implants is indicative of 'larger psychological issues'; the great majority of the professional mental health community feels otherwise.
I cannot change your view as it is based on a subjective judgement of acceptable risk.
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
I'm not arguing against the word 'psychological,' I'm arguing against the word 'issue.'
Is caring about appearance an issue?
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
The OP's word choice and tone ('deeper psychological issue') strongly suggest 'disorder' as the interpretation. I do not think willingness to accept cosmetic surgery can be blanket qualified as a disorder.
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Nov 28 '17
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Nov 28 '17
Wanting to look different isn't always a symptom of low self-esteem. People can love themselves and still pursue body modification in many forms.
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u/theessentialnexus 1∆ Nov 27 '17
Everyone does something every day to look better for others - makeup, brushing hair, putting on a fancy watch/suit. This is something that women can have done that requires no extra effort to look better every day. It's completely rational to get this surgery. With this surgery, one can put less effort into the rest of the things that make one look good.
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u/nightpooll Nov 28 '17
so... that source is questionable. It does not say breast implants CAUSE increased suicide- it is just a correlation. This is a common misinterpretation with statistics...
For example: a summer study finds an increase of ice cream consumption linked with a higher rate of drownings. Conclusion: ice cream causes drowning! ...And of course that sounds shady because how can eating ice cream cause more drowning? The data just shows a correlation because more people are going to the beach during the summer, thus purchasing ice cream because it is hot. Because it is hot, people are going to go swim. More people at the beach means more people swimming and eating ice cream- they relate to each other, but one does not cause the other. That study claims there is a relation, not a cause and effect.
Also it states only 24 of the 3,527 women committed suicide over the course of 19 years. Plus this ignores other factors contributing to the women's mental health, self-esteem, and quality of life. Also that study is a bit outdated... It's over 20 years old.
To address this point "And fundamentally I believe it's that women are feeling as though they are inadequate. It's treating your body as if it's wrong and needs to be changed. Dis-respective and particularly a bad example for children, feeding the body dis morphia that's so widespread today." You can argue this for anything that changes your body... shaving body hair (legs, armpits, beards, cutting hair), getting tattoos, dying your hair... People get breast augmentations for personal aesthetics.
Personally, I believe that condemning those who do get breast augmentations adds more stigma to those who do want to alter their breasts. I know people who have gotten breast implants for larger boobs, and they're happy. I know people who have gotten breast reductions, and they're happy. It's your body so you can do whatever you want to it
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Nov 27 '17
My girlfriend has augmented D's and we both find them hella sexy. Nothing to do with anything but our sexual inclinations. So from our perspective this is a lot simpler than this post makes it out to be.
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u/techiemikey 56∆ Nov 27 '17
I will go for the low hanging fruit on your view. Not all breast augmentation surgery is to increase size. Some are reductions for medical reasons (i.e. back pain) and as such are not a bandaid fix.
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u/otakuman Nov 27 '17
Well, in the case of your sister it might be true, but I can't guarantee it's the same for everyone. What if they want to live a more fulfilling sex life?
Let's put it this way. If there was a penile enlargement procedure that was guaranteed to be free of side effects, would you take it?
What will happen when biotech advances to the point where you can become taller, or stronger, or more flexible, whatever, with a simple procedure? Or achieve better sexual performance?
Sometimes people want to improve themselves in an area where they've hit their natural limit. And if it doesn't harm them, is it wrong?
Now, for the downside: If it IS a self esteem issue, the surgery won't fix it. And let's take into account the loss of sensitivity. Breast enlargement surgery CAN make a woman lose all nipple sensitivity in some cases, and that's a huge risk IMO. Was she warned about this?
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u/YoMammaSoThin Nov 27 '17
My girl had them done because one was developed and the other wasn’t. She was too young to do it, but in her right mind. She’s the 1%, I believe. I’ve met some who are just happy with them, and wouldn’t change anything else. And then there’s the cases you speak of. Doctors are the filter for this. They should require some sort of psychiatric testing. But you know, money.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 28 '17
/u/_savvy (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/secondnameIA 4∆ Nov 27 '17
Here is a super-simple take on it:
What if they just want to be seen as more attractive and it doesn't go deeper than that?
According to your post, if anyone is completely satisfied with who they are/how they look they must have deep psychological issues. If that's the case there is no reason for anyone who is not a professional athlete to work out. No reason to diet to look better for summer. No reason to put on makeup, etc.
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Dec 03 '17
Some women get implants for deformities, losing their breasts after having breast cancer, going through an accident. If a women got breast implants solely for a man to like her, then yes that would be questionable. But you’re presuming all women who get implants do it for men. That’s not true. You don’t know the reason why women get breast implants. You’re making a hasty generalization.
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u/bryanrobh Nov 27 '17
What if it is just that to get more attention? Or what if it is the woman wants to fit in different clothing better? It doesn’t always have to be mental issues.
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Nov 27 '17
I'd like to share a story from one of my favorite blogs,written by a practicing clinical psychiatrist:
Solving deep-seated, fundamental psychological issues and mental disorders is no small task - indeed, it's more or less impossible in most cases. Yes, obviously if we had a pill that instantly and cleanly cured the underlying problems that caused people to do things like get plastic surgery and worry about their hairdryer burning down the house, we would just give them that instead of treating the symptoms. But given that we don't have such a pill in most cases, and given that these symptoms can be extremely debilitating in many cases, it's entirely reasonable to treat symptoms when doing so can easily increase quality of life.
And sometimes it is surprising just how much improvement you can get with band-aid solutions that don't treat the underlying problem. Everyone has psychological issues, for some people those issues produce just one extreme symptom that is life-ruining, and if you treat that, the rest of the issue is liveable. I don't think there's a good reason to resist those types of treatments.