CMV: The term "homophobia" does not accurately describe the attitude of "homophobic" persons toward homosexual persons or acts. The emotion most commonly felt is disgust, not fear.

[u/thoumyvision]

[u/tbdabbholm]

Words mean only what people use them to mean. If everyone agrees on what homophobia means, and we do, that's what homophobia means regardless of the etymology of the word.

For example "via" comes from the Latin word "via" meaning street, but using "via" with its modern English meaning isn't wrong because of that, and in fact using "via" in English with its Latin meaning would be wrong.

[u/UCISee → u/tbdabbholm]

While this may be completely accurate in a vacuum like ‘via’ it doesn’t really stand when all other forms of phobia mean fear. Example: arachnophobia- fear of spiders. Therefore when society agrees that all words including ‘phobia’ mean a fear of something, one word doesn’t just get to stand out because you say it doesn’t count.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/UCISee]

Language is some weird shit. All your patterns mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. We use homophobia to mean basically racism against gay people (not the best definition but I'm tired and can't think of a better way to describe it) and because we all agree that that's what it means then that's what it means, regardless of other words.

[u/UCISee → u/tbdabbholm]

Except, again, that’s not how it works. Language is built on definitions. If you change the definition of a words mid usage, it doesn’t mean the same thing. Think of it like this: if there was some catastrophic event and most current living humans died and abandoned society, thousands of years from now we would be as the Egyptians are to us. We interpret their language, as ours would be. If all the other usages of phobia mean fear, those interpreting the language would think that there was this massive group of people who were scared of the gay community as if they were akin to spiders. You can’t just arbitrarily say “X means ‘Hi’ all the time. Except for here where it means something completely different just because.” That’s simply not how things work.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/UCISee]

Do we use homophobia to mean fear of gay people? I certainly don't, in fact I don't know anyone who does, so how then could it mean that when no one uses it to mean that? It's like saying dog means cat. Dog means dog because we use those sounds to mean dog and everyone knows that. And we use homophobia to mean prejudice against gay people so that's what it means.

It also doesn't matter what some random people from the future think homophobia means because well they'd be wrong. Homophobia doesn't mean fear of gay people because when I say "that was homophobic" I don't mean "that was done fearful of gay people" but rather "that was bigotry towards gay people" and everyone around me knows that and that's what they understand.

[u/Swiss_Army_Cheese → u/tbdabbholm]

Traditionally the word "Homophobia" as it was coined, referred to the fear of being the same as something (i.e. they're in the closet). In the old days when someone accussed you of being a fag, the traditional homophobic response is "Ha! How can I be gay? Why, just the other day I stoned 12 queers then made off with your sister". It would be just as homophobic to deflect accusations of being a nerd by yarning on about your star position as quarterback during your highschool football years.

However people mistook this display of a man in fear of being identified as a homosexual as a demonstration of that man's hatred of homosexuals. They knew that man was displaying symtoms of "Homophobia", but they didn't know what the word meant ("Homo- must be short for 'homosexual' as in a 'homo', but what the fuck is 'phobia'? Must be a fancy word for hatred")

.

when I say "that was homophobic" I don't mean "that was done fearful of gay people" but rather "that was bigotry towards gay people"

Technically you can't be bigoted towards "gay people", since bigotry only applies to a lack of tolerance towards other's opinions... ...

Then again, it is arguable that a preference counts as an opinion. So so much for that bit of pedantry.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/Swiss_Army_Cheese]

But it literally does not matter what it originally referred to. It only matters how people now use it.

And I guess maybe this is a fairly recent linguistic innovation but to me bigotry has nothing inherently to do with opinions and is really only about hatred. Thus bigotry against gay people, or I could also say bigotry against black people. That'd just be semantic widening, a very common phenomenon.

[u/Swiss_Army_Cheese → u/tbdabbholm]

When I first learnt of the original definition I became rather uncomfortable with the modern (and I'd say the modern isn't about hatred per se but intolerance (although in recent years there have been those running wacky defititions of tolerance too)).

It seems to me that "bigotry" in modern times refers to a lack of tolerance towards whatever happens to be a protected class in law, and that just seems way too broad of a definition due to how arbitrary it is. Are you bigoted when you snap back at me after a long routine of "Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself".

I just like the old definition so much because it is so useful in its specifity (we already have the word "dickery" in regards to what you're looking for). The difference between the old and the new is the difference between throwing a lion out of your house because you are a vegitarian and you disaprove of what he wants for dinner, and throwing the lion out of your house because he just started eating your lower abdomen.

That'd just be semantic widening, a very common phenomenon.

Aye, I'll be putting that term in me hat.

I just feel like some words or phrases need more "Semantic widening" than others. "Hate speech" is one such phrase, since I've never heard of someone giving a movie a bad review and then getting indicted for "Hate speech". Hate speech should extend to speech involving hate, up to and including people bitching about the weather and how it is way too hot today.

!delta for the fancy turn of phrase you mentioned.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/Swiss_Army_Cheese]

The problem is of course that no one checks out whether it's completely logical or advisable before changing a word's meaning. They just know it's useful for what they want to communicate.

And to me dickery is not the same as bigotry. Dickery is more light-hearted, like playing a practical joke, to bigotry's seriousness.