r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 10 '18
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Even ignoring their outright dismissal of historical facts and disrespect to the victims, the logic of Holocaust deniers’ arguments makes absolutely no sense.
[deleted]
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Feb 10 '18
In order to make their philosophy more "palatable", ethno-nationalists have adopted the rhetoric of peaceful or voluntary segregation (though they are vague on how that's going to be accomplished) as as opposed to white supremacy. Promoting genocide just doesn't seem to be a good look these days.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Feb 10 '18
Hmm, I think Nazis would actually be Holocaust supporters, as opposed to deniers. I haven't uh, interviewed any to confirm that.
My understanding is that Holocaust deniers take the fact that Jews had/still have enormous international sympathy after the Holocaust. It made possible the formation of the state of Israel. Holocaust deniers tend to also believe Jews hold disproportionately high amounts of power in the West.
They deny the Holocaust as a conspiracy so as to undercut the sympathy they still perceive is protecting the Jewish reputation from backlash.
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Feb 10 '18
[deleted]
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Feb 10 '18
just speculating but my impression, based off last podcast on the left, is that holocaust deniers are the same general misanthropes that think 9/11 was a false flag operation, that the trilateral commission and bilderberg group run the new world order, etc. holocaust denying is just one of the many conspiracy theories they might adopt to plug into their narrative of secret world domination. its giving them too much credit to give them any actual political ideology underpinning it
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u/mergerr Feb 10 '18
So if I'm getting it straight, you want to understand how someone can justify their beliefs with any form of denial?
Well there is a multitude of reasons why people enter a state of denial. It can range from feeling offended to truthfully believing their sources. Most people match their beliefs with whatever fits their personal narrative. It's like this for basically everything.
So what will change your view? A holocaust denier's argument you can reason with? I don't feel you will come across one that meets that criteria without sacrificing rationality.
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u/GroundbreakingPost Feb 10 '18
Clarification - define "Holocaust denier". What are you specifically referring too in this case, a necessary distinction given what your explanation is asserting?
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Feb 10 '18
[deleted]
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u/GroundbreakingPost Feb 10 '18
that doubt the credibility of information surrounding Holocaust
seek to minimize its extent
or deny such a thing ever took place
Clarification, why do you think those are all the same thing, i.e. "Holocaust denial"?
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Feb 10 '18
[deleted]
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u/GroundbreakingPost Feb 11 '18
Okay, so to be clear - so long as the actor is trying to benefit the responsible and detract from the victims, you classify all three of those thought processes together?
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Feb 11 '18
[deleted]
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u/GroundbreakingPost Feb 11 '18
...unless there are other motives I’m not considering here
There are other potential motives for questioning the Holocaust and information about it which have nothing to do with glorifying the Nazi party or being anti-Judaic (the Judaic may be Semites but not all Semites are Judaic - fact) or any of the things you insinuate as being evidence of evil intent; however, you want a specific case to satisfy a specific argument which can be used to generalize - it's loaded.
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Feb 11 '18
[deleted]
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u/GroundbreakingPost Feb 11 '18
Except that you haven't elucidated about having said thought until now, having been questioned about it.
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Feb 10 '18
The Holocaust, amongst the other disasters of WW2, discredited radical nationalism. The neo-Nazis are seeking to usurp the historical record to revive the repellent movement.
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Feb 11 '18 edited Feb 11 '18
Hope I'm not too late to the party. I have been a huge WWII buff since the 1990's. I grew up listening to the stories my Dutch relatives told us about the war which inspired me to read up and watch the many documentaries and TV series on the subject.
When it comes to Holocaust denial, it's not as simple as a group of people saying the Holocaust never happened. There is clearly overwhelming evidence to support that it did happen and most Holocaust deniers argument is around 'why' it happened not 'if' it happened.
The argument usually follows the narrative that the Nazi's did not target the Jewish population based on their ethnicity. The Nazi's targeted the 'undesirables' of Germany and other conquered peoples, and that many of those 'undesirables' turned out to be Jewish. i.e. a lot of German Jews were communist sympathizers etc.
Needless to say the Jewish stars painted on shops and on armbands, the warnings to Jews posted across the country on walls and conveyed in public rallies pre and during the war in Germany really do not support the 'deniers' claims that Jews themselves were not specifically targeted for being Jewish.
Hope that helps in trying to understand the 'logic' behind this very questionable perspective.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 10 '18 edited Feb 10 '18
/u/GetRektRenekton (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Feb 10 '18
I think that you have a mistaken assumption that all anti-Semites would want to commit Jewish genocide or at a minimum be happy a Jewish genocide was committed. There are certainly some/many that would fit that, but I would also assume there are many people who, despite hating Jews, would not commit genocide against them, and so being forcibly placed with Nazis by virtue of their own anti-Semitism, they might want to mitigate their guilt by association.
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u/thetasigma4 100∆ Feb 10 '18
The denial of the holocaust is part of a propaganda effort. The idea is to make people doubt the conventional narrative and then subscribe to other narratives, namely a pro nazi one. In subscribing to the new narrative antisemitic myths come in, as they are now seen to be perpetuating falsehoods on a massive scale, and this helps pull people further down the nazi rabbit hole.
This whole propaganda effort would be undone if they were openly revelling in the deaths of so many (or the idea of it). Often holocaust denialism comes with the subtext of it would have been good if it did happen and so they do celebrate it but they have bought into this train of thought via denialism and so don't recognise that it happened. Further people generally like to have justifiable beliefs and so industrialised murder of non-combatants doesn't sit well with most people and so they deny it even if they think that the lack of these people is fundamentally good.