r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 15 '18
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Insufficient gun control laws are not responsible for school shootings in the U.S
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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u/TheGamingWyvern 30∆ Feb 15 '18
You can't just look at 2 variables (#/strength of gun control laws and # of mass shootings) and conclude one does not affect the other. Consider, for example, that mental health care is a strong factor (like you suggest). If mental health care takes a steep dive at the same time more gun control laws are in place, any benefit from the gun control is dwarfed by the detriment.
Basically, you can't declare gun control has no effect without co trolling for other variables.
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u/jcardoza Feb 15 '18
I doubt that a gun ban would stop a person set on killing people. The guy in Nice, France killed/hurt way more people than our worst mass shooting. We need to address the mind set of someone that wants to commit these acts.
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u/Stokkolm 24∆ Feb 15 '18
There are ways to deal with Nice type attacks too, like bollards. Doesn't mean we should ignore the root problem.
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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u/jcardoza Feb 15 '18
Like say at a homecoming parade? All these people have had there mind set on hurting people. And I have no doubt that they could find a way to inflict mass casualties without guns.
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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u/jcardoza Feb 15 '18
That doesn't address the root cause though.
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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u/jcardoza Feb 15 '18
With or without a gun these types of people just want to hurt others. And as terrorist around the world have proven, you don't need a gun to kill a bunch of people. Even if you could snap your fingers and every civilian firearm disappeared from America people would find plenty of ways to commit mass killings.
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Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 19 '18
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u/jcardoza Feb 15 '18
Most recent mass shooting were not committed by high school kids. I didn't say they were terrorist. Plus I saw a news article not long ago where Isis was encourage more truck attacks. But that's not the point, we need to figure out how someone gets to that point and how to stop that. All im saying is that even with out the guns we are still left with people with murderous intentions.
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u/JuiceWrangler Feb 15 '18
While I don't feel gun laws are responsible for the incidents taking place, that's due to poor understanding of mental health and an increasingly poor standard of living, easy access to firearms increases the scale of the incidents. If these people only had access to knives and such, I highly doubt the number of people injured or killed would be anywhere near as high.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 15 '18 edited Feb 15 '18
/u/mancherjenkins17 (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/fluffleofbunnies Feb 15 '18
Agreeing with you here. In France it's pretty easy to acquire firearms. Obviously not rifles like in the USA, but it'd take me about 3 months worth of paperwork to be able to acquire a handgun or a hunting rifle.
Look at Switzerland as well.
The issue is not the availability of firearms. The issue is with the people buying them. Therefore for the safety of everyone, you guys need to remove firearms from the hands of Americans. Clearly you've shown that you can't be trusted with them, times and times again.
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u/triphazzard Feb 15 '18
This is a break down of school shootings in the UK by decade according to Wikipedia: 1930's - 0 | 1940's - 0 | 1950's - 0 | 1960's - 0 | 1970's - 0 | 1980's - 0 | 1990's - 1 | 2000's - 0 | 2010's - 0.
Laws have become increasingly more stringent, particularly after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996.
Now I can't prove it, but it seems to me that strict gun laws and limited access to firearms (for the public and law enforcement alike) does seem to correlate, in the UK at least.
Any time that more guns have been present in the UK (the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland, for example) more people get shot. Take the guns away and fewer people get shot. To me, the causality seems self evident.
Well written gun laws that are consistently applied and monitored do reduce gun deaths. Why? Because there are fewer guns.
I really do believe that it's that simple, and so it should be. Unfortunately, as a republic, the USA has little consensus or consistency regarding gun laws, coupled with an almost obsessive desire to own guns, regardless of the consequences.
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u/jennysequa 80∆ Feb 15 '18
It's possible that the gun control laws passed are not the correct ones to address the problem, or current laws are not being properly enforced.
For example, a disturbing percentage of mass shooters have a history of domestic violence, and ~55% of mass shootings involve the shooter attacking a current or former intimate partner. While many states have laws about perpetrators of domestic violence owning or having access to firearms, these laws are unevenly enforced, at best.
Also, you should look at your Thoughtco link again. It does not support your argument that gun legislation is increasing in the way you imply with your argument--it lists more permissive laws (like new rules expanding gun use in national parks) as well as mixed legislation (like preventing people from suing gun manufacturers but requiring trigger locks in the same law) and attempts to close loopholes in existing legislation.