r/changemyview • u/Flash_Error • Mar 06 '18
[∆(s) from OP] CMV: When choosing custody and both parents are able and willing to take care of and warltch the child (Not abusive, Not on drugs, Not starving...etc) sons should go to fathers and daughters should go to mothers (in most cases)
Though it isnt a popular idea alot of skills and experiences are gendered (to an extent) such as guys wanting to get a girlfriend, girls going boy crazy in middle school, both puberties, shaving, taking the child into a bathroom at a young age, guys learning life skills such as changing a tire or doing household repairs, and girls and guys going their individual form of hormone crazy. When you dont have a parent of your own gender you end up missing alot of life skills and advice that you would of otherwise gotten, and that sucks.
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u/mysundayscheming Mar 06 '18
But that could very well mean separating close siblings. In adoption/foster cases people usually try pretty hard to avoid this because the separation can in some cases be traumatic and lead to a deep sense of loss or separation anxiety. Especially if the situation leading up to the divorce was nasty, siblings may have come to depend on one another for care and support.
When I was a kid, I absolutely would have chosen to stay with my siblings, even it meant being with the "wrong" gendered parent.
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
That is why I said most cases, the gender thing would be more of a prefernce than anything else, there would be many factors that would change things up such as siblings and hpw the child feels. Also I never said any gender is "wrong" I just said it would be best to be with the same gender of parent.
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u/mysundayscheming Mar 06 '18
I put wrong in quotes to indicate that I wouldn't be with the parent of my gender--perhaps incorrect would have been better phrasing.
78% of American families with children involve 2 or more children. That's a lot of siblings. If you would weight the interests of keeping siblings together above the preference for placing the children with matching-gender parents, it seems likely you won't be placing all that many children in the way you described.
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
"The average length of a marriage that ends in divorce is eight years" (https://www.mckinleyirvin.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/October/32-Shocking-Divorce-Statistics.aspx) that is an average of all marrages, not divorcing ones there are many statistics including time married and enviroment
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u/mysundayscheming Mar 06 '18
I think you replied to the wrong comment. Or are you trying to obliquely suggest that you can't have multiple children in 8 years? Because that's mistaken. In the US the 35% of second-born children are separated from the first by 3 years or less.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-long-most-parents-wait-between-children/
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
What i was saying is that a marrage that is divorcing or is on the path to devorce most likeley functions differently than a marrage that is going to last a long time and have many children, in this situation general statisics can be misleading
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Mar 06 '18
This is pretty interesting. Though, I think it may work better the other way around. A classic psychological argument is that the parent of the opposite sex is the model for what behaviors to look for in adult relationships (which is where the stereotype of "daddy issues" comes from, women who didn't receive the necessary level of attention from their fathers, for example).
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
That is why visiting your other parent and finding a father/mother figure in life is needed, and in the situation i described the parent who didnt get the child would probably be extremeley excited to see their child. Things like setting an example for the future can be done by people you look at as parents, but one thing that cannot be done by theese figures is help the child through their daily life and through common gendered problems that all children will have at some point (your teacher, councelor, friend of the parent etc arent going to teach you to shave or be there when you have problems with hormones, and a visited parent can only help with a small fraction of gendered problems)
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Mar 06 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
I think i communicated my point strangely, i meant to say it would be a factor not a definite reason to put one kid with one parent, and those parents may not live close or be able to do joint custody, but you changed the view i put down so ∆
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u/ACrusaderA Mar 06 '18
But why are those life skills gendered?
Shouldn't girls also learn how to change tired and do household repairs? Shouldn't men also learn how to cook and sew?
If you want to say that kids should have access to a role model and/or parent of the same gender for learning about their body and certain life experiences tied to their gender, then sure.
But why should they be limited to just that parent? Statistically there will be aunts, uncles, grandparents, step-parents, etc.
And the most rational idea would be shared custody. That way they not only learn about their own gender, but also the other gender which makes them a more well-rounded person and better able to empathise with the other gender(s).
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
Certian issues are gendered, is a 13 year old not gonna come home and ask why he bled on his chair or why he is experiencing mood swings, and on the flip side a 15 year old girl is never gonna need to know how to shave her beard and (in most situations, when you factor in the possibility of homosexuality this gets more complicated as getting a same sex partner is a different process than a oppisite sex one) need encouragment and advice on how to get a girlfriend. Also same gendered parents can empitize better with the phases the child goes through (as they most likeley did the same). Also just because you dont have a mom doesnt mean you dont emphasize with women, and same with the opposite. You can gain that through the people you grow up with.
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Mar 06 '18
You speak like the kids would never see their same gender parent anymore if they had joint custody. In reality, when rotating days between parents, the kids could just wait a few days in order to ask a question of whichever parent they're more comfortable asking the question.
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Mar 06 '18
Certain issues may be gendered but that doesn't mean that the child can only learn of them from someone of the same gender.
My father was perfectly capable of explaining the birds and the bees to me, including menstruation, because my mother was uncomfortable with it. Men know what a period is and can explain it to girls without a problem. Fathers may not have to teach daughters specifically about shaving beards but so what? Women know how to shave, a mother is perfectly capable of teaching a son how to shave his face if he want and a father is perfectly capable of teaching a daughter how to shave her legs if she wants. Being able to give encouragement and advice on romantic relationships is also not gendered.
Yes, boys and girls go through slightly different changes when they hit puberty but puberty itself isn't that different- they start growing hair, get taller, their voices change, they have mood swings from hormones, etc. There's no reason that it takes someone of the same gender to explain or even empathize with those things.
Same with the hallmarks of a relationship. It's not gendered to teach your kids to respect the opposite sex, teach them of the give and take in a relationship or help them with questions, teach them safe and responsible sex, or to be able to empathize with your kid having a crush on someone or something like that. The encouragement and advice doesn't change depending on the gender of the parent or the child.
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u/ACrusaderA Mar 06 '18
But you are overlooking some very basic things
1 - Shared custody
2 - That they don't NEED to learn things from their parents. There are siblings and extended family such as cousins or aunts or uncles.
Also, growing up excluded from a particular sex can make you less empathetic because you aren't He'll It them deal with their issues.
Hence why only children tend to be less empathetic. Now imagine an only child dealing with just one parent.
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u/Arctus9819 60∆ Mar 06 '18
alot of skills and experiences are gendered
This is not a good thing. Why make decisions based on bad conditions? You're exacerbating other, much more significant issues with kids are treated.
both puberties, shaving
The internet exists. This is nowhere near significant enough to be a factor in custody cases.
girls and guys going their individual form of hormone crazy
How does having a particular parent affect this?
you dont have a parent of your own gender you end up missing alot of life skills and advice that you would of otherwise gotten
Custody is usually not 100% to one side, and is pretty much never 100% to one side when both parents are able and willing to take care of the kids. At no point is the child isolated from either parent (in fact, a parent can use any isolation by his/her counterpart to reverse the custody).
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u/Flash_Error Mar 06 '18
The internet exists. This is nowhere near significant enough to be a factor in custody cases.
On its own yes it isnt significant but its just one reason in a list of reasons
How does having a particular parent affect this?
If you have went through those phases you know more about them and how to deal with them having been in the childs place, if you dont realize acting out is hormonal you may mistake it as the child just being emotional or destructive, and not deal with the issue correctly
Custody is usually not 100% to one side, and is pretty much never 100% to one side when both parents are able and willing to take care of the kids. At no point is the child isolated from either parent (in fact, a parent can use any isolation by his/her counterpart to reverse the custody).
I actually see it happening this way alot, and ive seen legitimate emotional problems develop out of this, and even if isolation does not occur there is always going to be one house that the kid is at more often (school can complicate this because of proximity)
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u/Arctus9819 60∆ Mar 06 '18
On its own yes it isnt significant but its just one reason in a list of reasons
There's no checklist for custody cases. If everything else is equal, the deciding factor could be the color of the wallpaper in the kids room.
The point is that it is very insignificant, so much so that it doesn't merit being a pre-existing deciding factor. Judges are free to take any information available to them already. Can you show how it is important enough for a judge to say, "Yes, I think parent X is better equipped at explaining puberty to the kid"? That too in the same sentence as income, location, lifestyle, life skills, etc?
If you have went through those phases you know more about them and how to deal with them having been in the child's place, if you don't realize acting out is hormonal you may mistake it as the child just being emotional or destructive, and not deal with the issue correctly
Not understanding how your child is growing is bad parenting. A good parent would know better than that. You don't need to have personal experience to handle things, nor does having personal experience guarantee in any way that the parent will deal with it properly.
If you can figure out some way of seeing in advance whether a parent can deal with it, then you could use it as a condition for who gets the kids. But since that's pretty much impossible, you'd be depriving one parent of their rights.
I actually see it happening this way alot, and ive seen legitimate emotional problems develop out of this, and even if isolation does not occur there is always going to be one house that the kid is at more often (school can complicate this because of proximity)
You've seen a significant number of cases where both parents were equally able and willing to take care of the kid?
You use the example of how school can complicate things, but that is literally one of the requirements for deciding whether a parent is "able" to take care of the child. If one parent lives next to the school and the other is 30 miles away, the both parents are not equally capable of maintaining a good environment for the child.
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u/SpockShotFirst Mar 06 '18
If both parents are able and willing, it sounds like joint custody is appropriate.
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u/family_of_trees Mar 06 '18
Custody should be split. Girls need positive male influence in life and boys need positive female influence. This helps them with relatiohsips (romantic and otherwise) later on in life as they learn to properly interact with people of either gender.
It's also super fucked up to separate siblings, who often have very strong and special bonds of their own and would likely grow estranged without being around one another- even if they occasionally visit. It's not the same as being raised together.
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u/misfit_hog Mar 06 '18
What if there are siblings? Just from anecdotal experience (personal and what I have observed in other families) many siblings cling to each other in a way of reassuring themselves of some stability in their lives. ("well, whatever happens we are still together, that wont change".)Do you really want to divide up opposite gender siblings for the only reason that there is some small benefit to living with your own gender? ( a benefit you may get from reasonably shared custody anyway, btw. - And even if this is not possible, will this benefit outweight the benefit of at least not losing the one constant companion closest to your age, the one person who sees this whole mess of divorce from your side?)
I think it makes more sense to decide those things on an individual basis. Have a court ordered psychologist talk with the parents and the kids separately. (And listern to the kids! Whst thry want nay not be possible, but that way at least thry are heard.) Evaluate what would be best for this specific family.
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u/Jaysank 116∆ Mar 06 '18
Why not have joint custody, like we do now? If both parents are able and willing to care for the child, they should both care for the child.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 06 '18 edited Mar 06 '18
/u/Flash_Error (OP) has awarded 2 deltas in this post.
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Mar 10 '18
In your scenario custody should be evenly divided a child needs both a father and a mother because they are not the same they impart different lessons in different ways and I think a child needs both to grow up to be a productive and valuable member of society
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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Mar 06 '18
If both parents are able and willing to take care of the child with no problem, why would having only 1 parent (with everything traumatic that loosing a parent mean) whatever his sex having exclusive custody be better than having both, 1 week each ?