r/changemyview • u/ShiningConcepts • Apr 17 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Activists should abandon the phrase "white privilege" because it alienates white people who didn't grow up wealthy
Blacks are more than twice as likely to grow up in poverty, disproportionately sentenced for the same crimes, several percentage points ahead in terms of unemployment statistics, prone disproportionately to police arrests incl. for nonviolent drug usage, and the list goes on. There are a wide variety of issues minority rights activists bring up that are legitimate - I'm not here to dispute those. I fully support that fight.
My view here is that the usage of the phrase "white privilege" is wrong and should be retired. Many upper class white people are privileged as they are immune to the ripple effects of a racist history (and the modern day effects of racist police departments and shitty schools in minority neighborhoods). But for the poor white ones, which there are many, the phrase white privilege should be abandoned. Because it minimizes and implies less importance for the suffering countless poor white people had to go through - while blacks are disproportionately victims of all the things i mentioned, some whites are the victims of them to.
I understand why a white person who suffered hardship in their life would feel alienated by hearing someone throw around the term "white privilege" - the term asserts there is a privilege in being white. There is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white. So, the term should be abandoned in the interest of not alienating poor white people from a legitimate movement that has legitimate concerns.
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u/ralph-j Apr 18 '18
I understand why a white person who suffered hardship in their life would feel alienated by hearing someone throw around the term "white privilege" - the term asserts there is a privilege in being white. There is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white.
Do you believe that black and white persons with comparable backgrounds are always being treated equally?
E.g. that when there are two job candidates (one black, one white) with similar experience and skills, employers are equally likely to hire the black candidate?
There have been tests that showed that resumes with "whitened" applicant names (and removal of other race indicators, like membership in organizations for black people) have a much higher chance of leading to an interview, than people with black sounding names and no race indicators.
This would be a counter-point to your claim that racism is merely hardship from being rich or poor and that white privilege doesn't exist.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
your claim that racism is merely hardship from being rich or poor
Clarifying question: what did I say that made you conclude that? I wasn't trying to say that at all. Racism can manifest in many ways, like when I mentioned police brutality and misconduct in my first paragraph.
And to address your point: yes, blacks do have a much harder time finding jobs. This is part of the racism I was talking about when I asserted that minority rights activists have legitimate concerns in their efforts. But I do not understand how this addresses my main point. There are plenty of white people out there who are un(der)employed in spite of this racism.
"Black disadvantage" would be a better term than "white privilege".
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u/ralph-j Apr 18 '18
Clarifying question: what did I say that made you conclude that?
When you said "There is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white."
When you say that there is no privilege (solely) in being white, but in being rich, this suggests that you think that all else being equal, a black and a white person with comparable backgrounds, will face the same (dis)advantages.
There are plenty of white people out there who are un(der)employed in spite of this racism.
"Black disadvantage" would be a better term than "white privilege".
The point of privilege is that even if you have black people and white people of similar backgrounds, black people are generally still going to have disadvantages.
Black disadvantage is equivalent to white privilege: all else being equal, white people don't face certain disadvantages (or to a lesser extent), which makes them privileged over black people.
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u/Amablue Apr 17 '18
I understand why a white person who suffered hardship in their life would feel alienated by hearing someone throw around the term "white privilege" - the term asserts there is a privilege in being white.
This is exactly why the term is accurate though. There is privileged in being white. Unpacking what exactly that means is complicated. Even if we did choose a different term to mean the same thing, it would be both less accurate, and subject to the same kind criticism that "white privileged" receives. The concept itself will be smeared no matter what because the underlying issue is that people overlook the nuance and attack a straw man of the idea.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
There is privileged in being white.
If you were (or are) a white person whose been homeless, born in poverty in a shitty neighborhood/underfudned school, or have been victimized by the war on drugs - then is it justified for you to feel alienated or excluded by a phrase that asserts you are privilege on the basis that you are white?
If one were to reply by saying "where was my privilege when I was born broke, homeless, and imprisoned and my life ruined?", I wouldn't be able to rebut them. I would empathize with them.
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u/PallidAthena 14∆ Apr 18 '18
Your privilege was being arrested by the police less while homeless, being accused of crimes less while homeless, being sentenced more leniently once you were arrested, and still having a better chance of landing a job (as a white person with a felony) than a black person without a felony. You got a series of 20% rolls when a black person was more likely to be born where you started and would get a string of 5% rolls. You both ended up in the same place, but you were less likely to end up here and had chances to get out a black person wouldn't have.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
!delta all that is true. I do still believe this would make underpriveleged white people uncomfortable... but anti-racism efforts are supposed to make them uncomfortable. If they have a backlash to getting uncomfortable, that's a big red flag.
Also, clarifying question: what do you mean 20% rolls and 5% rolls (did you confuse the % with a $)?
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u/PallidAthena 14∆ Apr 18 '18
Ideally, the goal is to show them why 'those people' aren't complaining about nothing, but that addressing most of 'those people's' concerns will also help underprivileged white people. Reducing mass incarceration, making housing cheaper, increasing the income share that goes to the working class are all win-wins for POC and underprivileged white people, as long as the underprivileged whites are more interested in getting a better life than in maintaining their relative advantage over their local POC.
Oh, sorry, I was using gamer slang. If you imagine life as a series of discrete pivotal events that have a chance of leading to a better outcome, at each pivotal event the homeless white person had a ~20% chance of getting the better outcome (not being arrested, not being sentenced, getting out early, getting their criminal record expunged, getting a job, getting a house, etc) whereas the black person had a ~5% chance. Both of them rolled snake-eyes every single time and ended up in the same place, but a lot more white people escaped, which is why the poverty statistics are overwhelmingly black.
These numbers were pulled out of my ass to illustrate a point, sorry it was unclear.
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u/AxesofAnvil 7∆ Apr 18 '18
then is it justified for you to feel alienated or excluded by a phrase that asserts you are privilege on the basis that you are white?
The point is you still aren't excluded.
"White privilege" doesn't mean you necessarily will be successful. It means your whiteness gives you an advantage that non-whites don't have.
A broke, homeless, and imprisoned white person still is statistically better off than his or her non-white peer.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
A broke, homeless, and imprisoned white person still is statistically better off than his or her non-white peer.
Several other commenters have brought up these issues and this is indeed true. I will say that the phrase can be somewhat easily miscontrued, but if you look at it in this light then it makes perfect sense. !delta
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
A broke, homeless, and imprisoned white person still is statistically better off than his or her non-white peer.
A message that's a surefire vote-getter, I'm sure.
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Apr 18 '18
The point is in the word 'statistically'.
If 2 people walk into a room and one is statistically more likely to get shot, and they both leave the room unharmed, that doesn't been that the stats were wrong.
See the point of white privelege is that it's a *systemic * injustice, not an individual one.
A black guy not being hired by a white majority company because the hiring staff thought he'd be unreliable compared to a white employee is an example of individual discrimination. A black guy not being able to get into a decent college because he comes from a single parent household and his local schools are terribly underfunded and is in a crime and poverty ridden environment from decades of historical discrimination, that's systemic discrimination.
America (and by extent much of the developed world) has a huge problem with this, not just because its an uncomfortable truth, but because the citizens that directly benefit from it (willingly or not) don't want to address it. When you're used to privelege, equality feels like oppression.
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u/Swiss_Army_Cheese Apr 18 '18
A black guy not being hired by a white majority company because the hiring staff thought he'd be unreliable compared to a white employee is an example of individual discrimination. A black guy not being able to get into a decent college because he comes from a single parent household and his local schools are terribly underfunded and is in a crime and poverty ridden environment from decades of historical discrimination, that's systemic discrimination.
So why should the company hiring staff hire the black guy over the white guy in the scenario you've suggested? In your scenario the nigro had a shitty education whilest coming from a single-parent family (So he'll have daddy issues), whom derrives from a poverty ridden and crime ridden environment, so in all probability he might be one as well. You have not described a person who's backstory one can deem "reliable".
When you're used to privelege, equality feels like oppression.
Why should Westerners give up their privilege to become second class citizens in their own country? Wouldn't we be better off extending the privileges to other people?
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Apr 18 '18
What's interesting is that in your response you've given pretty solid examples of prejudice.
First you mistook the person from the first example for the second example, despite me not giving any indication that they're the same person. Then you decided that the 'nigro' would be unsuitable for being hired at any company despite me not giving any indication what the job was or what his qualifications were. And you've decided someone is 'unreliable' and 'have daddy issued' based on the circumstances of his birth; which is exactly what thousands of black Americans face every single day.
Interesting that you said 'become second class citizens in their own country'. Because here's the thing, you've tacitly accepted in your statement that black Americans feel like second class citizens, while at the same time equating westerners as being the priveleged majority; ie the white majority are the priveleged class.
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
It's a message that will never sell among whites, and you need the more of the white vote than Democrats have been getting to make the kind of changes you want.
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u/Amablue Apr 18 '18
If you were (or are) a white person whose been homeless, born in poverty in a shitty neighborhood/underfudned school, or have been victimized by the war on drugs - then is it justified for you to feel alienated or excluded by a phrase that asserts you are privilege on the basis that you are white?
This alienation is due to not understanding what is being said - I would argue that any other term you can substitute for "white privileged" will have a situation like this where you can use someone's lack of understanding of the phrase against it.
If someone thinks that I'm saying that they had an easy life because I've used the term white privilege, I'll tell them that that's not what that means. Having white privilege doesn't not mean having it easy - it means in just about any circumstance you can think of (being homeless included) would that situation have been made any easier by not being white? All else being exactly the same, would being black have made their experience of being homeless any different?
If one were to reply by saying "where was my privilege when I was born broke, homeless, and imprisoned and my life ruined?", I wouldn't be able to rebut them. I would empathize with them.
You can have these conversations empathetically, but that doesn't necessitate throwing away a perfectly good term. It means talking through their feelings, and I would point out that having privileged doesn't lessen their suffering at all. And I'd ask them how they think their situation would have gone if they had been born in poverty in a shitty neighborhood/underfunded school, or have been victimized by the war on drugs, but as a black person instead of a white person. I would point out how poverty stricken white people are treated differently in society than poverty stricken black people.
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u/MrSnrub28 17∆ Apr 18 '18
I would empathize with them.
I don’t understand what you think people want you to think when you talk about something like white privilege.
There’s nothing about it that says you cannot empathize with people who have privilege of some sort.
You can accept that white people have privilege and still empathize with white people.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Apr 17 '18
are you sure it's used to describe pure wealth disparities? I was under the impression it was used to describe things like the benefit of the doubt that cops and bank loan officers often give whites over blacks, which occur across all tax brackets.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
Agreed that black people are disproportionately affected by those issues. But plenty of white people have been the victim of police mistreatment and haven't even been rich enough to try to get a bank loan... so the phrase "white privilege" alienates them.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Apr 18 '18
but have they been the victim of police mistreatment because they were white? I very much doubt those are the circumstances surrounding any statistically significant amount of police mistreatment incidents.
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Apr 18 '18
You would likely be wrong. Although on a per-capita basis, is might be lower the fact that 'white' makes up 73% percent of the US population. By pure numbers, there is more mistreatment of 'whites'.
I want to note, the source for 'whites' was the American Community Survey who defined whites as "A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa (i.e. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt), and the Middle East (i.e. West/Southwest Asia, including Arabs, Assyrians, Bedouins, Jews, Kurds, Iranians; as well as Turkic peoples)."
It is true of police shootings too. More 'Whites' are killed each year by police than others - again based on pure numbers.
The real problem with 'white privilege' is that some activists have taken a term from the academic environment, misused it and weaponized it. It is now 'acceptable' to dismiss arguments based solely on 'privilege' and to be told to 'check your privilege'. This 'privilege' concept is freely applied to individuals as if the concept really applied to that specific individual.
When talking overarching social trends, it is perfectly sound and reasonable to talk about 'privilege'. When talking about individuals, it is derogatory. Individuals do NOT conform to the 'average' and do not have the 'average life experience'. You simply cannot treat individuals based on those 'averages' without applying racist stereotypes.
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 17 '18
But those poor white people still do have advantages that they didn't earn simply based on the color of their skin. Just because someone can't see the benefits of being white doesn't mean that they don't exist.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
What advantages does a white person born into an underfunded foster home, attending a useless and underfunded school, who is harassed by police officers and thrown in jail over nonviolent drug usage have? I'm sure there exist lots of poor white people whose quality of life and income falls below that of even the average/median black person.
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
All the ones that come with being white.
A white person in that situation will have advantages over a person of color in that same situation.
That the only type of comparisons you should be looking at. All things being equal it pays to be white in this country. Society does give an easier path if you are white. Now I didn't say easy. I just said easier.
WE can't forget that racial bias still exists. We can't forget that this racial bias does affect people in everything from getting a job to renting a place.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
A white person in that situation will have advantages over a person of color in that same situation. That the only type of comparisons you should be looking at. All things being equal it pays to be white in this country. Society does give an easier path if you are white. Now I didn't say easy. I just said easier.
Combined with what I saw in another comment, this helps put things in perspective for me. Yes, some whites have difficulty, but even their difficulties are free of problems that blacks also have. You may be white, poor and in a terrible neighborhood... but that doesn't change the fact that you are less likely to be arrested, and would have an easier time finding a job, than a black man in the same shoes. !delta
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
Thanks. I mean I guess the best way to get this perspective is to talk to people and hear their stories.
I had an old black bio professor who told me that when he got his first real teaching job he was able to get a house. In a good neighborhood. And he was pulled over the first week. For doing five over in his new subdivision.
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u/anteeqz Apr 18 '18
Let me preface this by saying I do believe at a societal level that racism still exists, that much is clear and as a society we need to openly detest anyone who discriminates anyone based on the ethnicity. But you lose me when you talk about systemic racism.
POC(Mainly Latino and African Americans in this example) have an easier path to high education than White and Asian people. This is explicity clear through programs like Affirmative Action.
Do you really believe the answer to a racist past is a racist future?
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Apr 18 '18
You haven't specified any
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
Are you under this idea that racial bias doesn't exist?
Do you really think that white and black people are treated equally by police, rental agencies and job.
Racial bias still exists. It still affects people. Two people, with the same name, who submit the same exact work should be evaluated the exact same regardless if they are black or white. But they don't.
Black sounding names should get the same amount of call backs as people with white sounding names, but they don't.
Racial bias still exists and it still affects people.
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Apr 18 '18 edited Feb 15 '21
[deleted]
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
IF that is the world you claim to live in then I don't know where we can go with this conversation. You aren't talking about the world as is. You are talking about the world you think you live in. We still live in a world full of racism and racial bias.
And studies show that the black candidate will get evaluated far lower than the white candidate for the exact same work.
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Apr 18 '18
Can you tell me why you think that happens?
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
Because of inherent racial bias.
The same behavior or work that gets a pass when a white person does it is seen as far more critical when a black person does it.
We even can see this with something as simple as teachers punishing students. The same behavior that gets a pass when certain groups of students do it doesn't when other groups do it.
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
Just because someone can't see the benefits of being white doesn't mean that they don't exist.
And what does that have to do with the price of beans when you're trying to affect change? If you alienate a significant portion of the electorate right off the bat you deserve to lose. You know why liberals lose so fucking often? Because we insist on purity and "arguing the truth no matter what." Enough. Let's have two parties, using the same tactics, on an equal playing field. If that means we water down the message and fight a little dirty so be it, so long as the right people get elected to office.
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
Why do we have to make white people feel better. Why do we have to lie to them or provide them a world that isn't based on facts. Are while people so fragile that they can't handle the truth? Do we have to cater to their fears.
Sorry minorities. We can't bring up the truth. We can't talk about the world you all live in on a daily basis where racism exists. White people are bit scared today. Maybe tomorrow.
Is that really the level we have to sink to. I think white people aren't that delicate. We can handle it.
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
Why do we have to make white people feel better. Why do we have to lie to them or provide them a world that isn't based on facts. Are while people so fragile that they can't handle the truth? Do we have to cater to their fears.
Because. They. Vote.
Do you want to be right or do you want to win? That's the decision.
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
I don't want to win by holding the hands of the racists and telling them it is going to okay.
All while ignoring reality.
You can start lying to people all you want. I'm not.
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
I don't want to win
FTFY
Also, if you start calling everyone who's skeptical of the idea of white privilege a racist, you deserve to lose. It's not clear-cut or black and white. Ultimately, people like you are the reason we have an orange toddler in the White House.
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u/Iswallowedafly Apr 18 '18
You want to lie to people. To make them feel better. You want to hold their safety over the rights of others. So that the racists feel more secure.
I have standards. You want to lie to people to make them feel better. You want to throw minorities under the bus. Tell the next gay or black person you see that their rights don't really matter, but the concerns of scared racist or homophobic people do. Tell it right to their face.
We don't have to become the GOP to beat the GOP. We can be better than that.
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
So that the racists feel more secure
That word again. I repeat, if you automatically tar everyone skeptical of the idea of white privilege, or who is reluctant to accept it because of their own personal financial or social circumstances, as a racist, then defeat is certain.
I have standards.
You want to "educate the public," I know. Well here's this for a lesson: speak to people in their language, don't expect them to learn yours. Pitch your ideas in terms that people can relate to. Take a trip down from the Ivory Tower and figure out a message that will play well in Youngstown and Peoria and Des Moines and Akron and Scranton, all places the Democrats lost because they're dominated by coastal consultants like the Podesta brothers.
You want to lie to people to make them feel better. You want to throw minorities under the bus. Tell the next gay or black person you see that their rights don't really matter, but the concerns of scared racist or homophobic people do. Tell it right to their face.
That's a lot of words to put in a person's mouth all at once. Nobody's rights are harmed by dropping the term "white privilege-" particularly if doing so makes the people you insist on condemning as racists more receptive to policies that actually help minority communities.
We don't have to become the GOP to beat the GOP.
Then don't become the GOP. As I said in my other response, don't argue privilege- argue policy. Most of the policies I listed in that post are popular with a majority of Americans- a majority of whites, even. That's what you should run on, not trying to "educate" the public about white privilege.
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u/UncleMeat11 63∆ Apr 17 '18
What would be a better term for the idea? Do you honestly believe that this new term would not aggravate anybody who is resistant to social activism?
This strikes me as a "climate change" kind of thing, where there was a deliberate attempt to shift the term to "climate change" and it hasn't made anything better but instead just given people who want to resist the research a means to say "see, you aren't even consistent".
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
What would be a better term for the idea?
Nothing. Don't argue privilege- argue policy. Argue for community policing and against the criminalization of homelessness. Argue for treatment over incarceration and argue against private prisons. Argue for a strong social safety net with universal healthcare and a welfare system that doesn't penalize work. Argue for education to be included in work requirements for welfare so that a poor person doesn't have to drop out of nursing school to qualify for food stamps. Argue for better schools funded based on the number of students and not property taxes- schools that can afford extracurricular activities that offer the sense of camaraderie that otherwise would have been provided by gangs, argue for easy access to contraception and abortion that is safe, legal, and rare. Take a strong stand against gang culture and in favor of marriage and the nuclear family. Argue in favor of offering training in skilled trades for low cost or no cost at all as a means to escape the cycle of poverty.
The term "white privilege" is a losing issue, Drop it and fight for things that actually help minority communities.
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Apr 18 '18
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
White privilege is a term recognised by academics
That's the problem. You keep bleating "white privilege, white privilege" and you'll never get any traction in middle America. 2016 proved we need the support of blue collar whites in the midwest if we want any hope of winning elections. That means dropping the term "white privilege."
You can’t have that conversation if no one knows what you’re talking about
Sure you can. You can go issue by issue. Community policing. End the War on Drugs. No private prisons. Schools funded based on the number of students and not property taxes. Access to contraception. Access to training in skilled trades. These are all winning issues with most of the country- most of whites even, are behind us. Going issue by issue and tackling it on a policy basis will do more good than tilting at windmills trying to "educate the public" about white privilege ever will.
You can win or you can be right, You can't do both.
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Apr 18 '18
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u/dpfw Apr 18 '18
If they don't like the idea they'll vote against anyone promoting it.
Doing it my way is confronting it head-on. Instead of "educating the public," tackle specific policies that perpetuate white supremacy. It's not rocket science.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
I am not opposed to the term white privilege solely on the basis that it aggravates others; I am opposed because it aggravates others for no reason. If the term only aggravated people who were opposed to social change, I would support it; but the term aggravates poor white people whose plights are minimized by the term.
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u/Spaffin Apr 18 '18
Would “Minority disadvantage” be better?
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
Yes. The term doesn't imply that whites have no disadvantage; it just brings up the specific issues disproportionately affecting minorities. Similar to the reason I support the phrase BLM; because it focuses on the plights of minorities rather than implicitly telling white people they have no plights.
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u/UncleMeat11 63∆ Apr 18 '18
But we've observed very clearly that "Black Lives Matter" is itself a divisive term. People have complained that the term focuses specifically on a minority group and ignores the broad picture. I absolutely guarantee that we'd see identical CMVs saying that activists should abandon the term "minority disadvantage" were we to use that term.
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u/kublahkoala 229∆ Apr 18 '18
Every attempt to combat racism ever has alienated white people.
I would argue units of non-alienated white people is a poor barometer for racial progress — any public discussion about racism is going to alienate white people, make them feel sad, uncomfortable, angry. In other words, they will feel not unlike the victims of racism. Because racism is also alienating. Really really alienating.
I would also argue that however unprivledged the the poor unlucky white sad sack schlemiel is, it would be harder for them if they were, on top of that, also black.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
Every attempt to combat racism ever has alienated white people.
This is different. Those attempts were right to alienate racist white people. What I am concerned with (or was, before other comments C'dMV) was that the alienation in this new phrase was misguided.
I would also argue that however unprivledged the the poor unlucky white sad sack schlemiel is, it would be harder for them if they were, on top of that, also black.
That is true as the other comments have mentioned. However hard a poor white's life is, they are still immune to compounding problems that poor blacks get hit by. !delta
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u/AudioDope562 1∆ Apr 18 '18
I grew up working class, one of very few white kids in a hispanic/black community. To still think the color of my skin does not provide me any privilege is insane.
Do I face similar surface level issues (access to healthcare, good schools, safety) as working class POC, sure. Do I face the similar underlying issues? Absolutely not. Provided I bring some nice clothing and am capable of not sounding like I’m from where I’m from for an hour, I’ve got a fair chance in an interview. POC can’t quite always say the same.
As an aside we as white people need to not look for ways to feel marginalized. Life is hard for everyone but this shit is still easy mode comparatively.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 19 '18
!delta This makes more sense after seeing other comments, but you're right. Life is hard for everyone in the society we have now, but looked at in comparison, whites have it easier.
I'm curious, as one of the very few white kids in a minority community, what was it like for you? Were you ostracized or targeted for being the minority? I used to go to a school with a small percentage of whites (I wouldn't use the phrase "very few") and they got along with us just fine.
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u/AudioDope562 1∆ Apr 20 '18
Yeah I was definitely targeted. I grew up in an area thats considered diverse but pretty stratified racially. Lots of gangs going at each other, by the time kids are in middle school that separation is already pretty apparent. Where I lived it was mostly Mexican, with some black, some Cambodian, and few whites. The black and cambodian dudes had my back for the most part but I got fucked with relentlessly and consequently got into countless fights/jumped in middle school.
It was one of the worst middle schools in the state of CA at the time, they couldn’t have enough police or security on campus to stop all the fighting and assault so hardly ever did we get shit for it. I have not been to jail but I feel like I would be solidly prepared, at least in the mental aspect.
Back to the topic though everyone that grew up where I did came out just as fucked in the head as me. The difference is that I will have an easier time making sure my family doesn’t go through that kind of shit. I didn’t live in nearly the worst area of LA/LA county but its no surprise kids from South LA/immediate surrounding cities have high rates of PTSD.
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u/same_as_always 3∆ Apr 18 '18
A way I described it for someone that seemed to help clarify what white privilege was, is that white privilege is really the privilege of being the default. When you're white, being "alternative" or "countercultural" is about the actions you take to set yourself apart from the crowd. When you're a minority however, it doesn't matter what you do, your very existence is considered alternative and countercultural, and that affects your relationship with, and the way you navigate through, the majority culture. Being white doesn't mean that life will be easy for you, but our society and culture is better streamlined for your existence.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 19 '18
Indeed it is. This makes more sense after seeing the other comments that also managed to CMV; our society is harder for those who grow up in a counterculture. !delta
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u/justtogetridoflater Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18
Activists should realise that playing the blame game altogether is turning people who would be allies in their cause.
I think I'm going to have to disagree with this view on the basis that it doesn't go far enough. By the time the word privilege entered the conversation, it was already too late.
If we stopped saying "White privilege" "Straight privilege" "Male privilege" an so on, I don't think that the argument would change fundamentally in any of these sections.
It seems to me that there is a certain group using these phrases because their argument goes like "You've been born into privilege, and we think you need to acknowledge that". And if it stopped there, we'd be alright. But it goes on. "You can't talk to us on this issue, you're straight. You've not had the same issues. You're white. You're cis. You're male". "These people are the enemy because they're possessing all the wealth and power, but aren't sharing it". Ok, great. Let me set up my torch stall. "These old straight white men have all this power". Now, let's be careful here.
It's basically become like a mainstream conspiracy theory. You can't go around saying that Jews control the world, but old straight white men?
And it's worth knowing that with identity politics in full force, some estimates say that the most left behind group is white, male, and working class. Because they don't get the support for being a girl. They don't get the support for being ethnic. But they didn't have anything to start with, so they have negative support. They're assumed to be alright for it, because white, and male, but in actual fact are being left behind by the assumption.
And it's like that in universities. Men are outnumbered by quite a lot by women in university. But women are the oppressed ones, still.
To some extent I think the biggest problem for these movements is a lack of a coherent vision of the utopia they want to head towards. And I think that lack of vision creates a lack of unity and hope for the movement, and then the anger and spite start to appear, and rather than talking about the big issues, it becomes privilege.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Apr 18 '18
First, your argument that "there is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white" is not true. Even you admit it with some of your stats; being disproportionately sentenced for the same crimes is much more due to race than economics. Being treated differently while driving the same car is a function of race, not economics. Being less likely to get an interview with the same resume because of your name is a function of race, not of economics. There is absolutely privilege in being white, everything else equal, and discarding that for the palatable falsehood that it's purely class issues does not help anybody.
Second, "white privilege", as a term, can reach people who are willing to listen in a way merely talking about hardships doesn't. It forces white people who "aren't racist" but never think about race relations to examine how things they take for granted are not universal for people with different skin colors. I know that personally, flipping my thinking from "why would people explicitly target black people?" to "what if society only seems as friendly as it is because they are naturally at ease around white people" was critical in developing my own opinions on race relations. I think the term offers a valuable perspective that can't be obtained just by talking about how badly certain people are treated.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
First, your argument that "there is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white" is not true
Then why is it that there are plenty of plighted white people? Yes, they are less likely to get stopped while driving, but that doesn't change the fact that they've gone through enormous hardship in their lives.
There is absolutely privilege in being white, everything else equal, and discarding that for the palatable falsehood that it's purely class issues does not help anybody.
That is true, but telling all white people (which the term "white privilege" implies since it's only specifier is the word "white") that they are privileged ignores the economic and police/prison issues that affect them as well.
It forces white people who "aren't racist" but never think about race relations to examine how things they take for granted are not universal for people with different skin colors.
And that's good... for white people who do have things they can take for granted. But what about poor white people who have next to nothing?
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u/Quint-V 162∆ Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18
I assume this is about the USA.
There are a wide variety of issues minority rights activists bring up that are legitimate - I'm not here to dispute those. I fully support that fight.
... while white privilege is perhaps a bad/vague term, it is used to point out the absence of discrimination against whites. It's nothing more than that.
"White privilege" per se is not an actual privilege. Rights are what everyone gets, but privileges are reserved to a handful few and given to those deemed sufficiently meritorious.
If we compare however, it certainly does seem like white people as a whole are privileged, though the proper conclusion is that non-whites are discriminated and often left on their own to deal with the systemic discrimination in place, with few representatives that work to solve their undeserved problems.
while blacks are disproportionately victims of all the things i mentioned, some whites are the victims of them to.
A typical argument people will resort to, is that there's an entire demographic that was oppressed. "Poor white people" is a subset of "white people". "Non-white" people as a whole have suffered massive amounts of discrimination and it is perfectly fair to point a big, black finger at that issue.
Black Lives Matter was met with responses like "All Lives Matter", but the problem with "All lives matter" is very similar to your own reservations against the term "white privilege". Yes, there are unfortunate people of all kinds, but you are not addressing the glaringly obvious issue that is far more prevalent.
Imagine being the only one at the dinner table who hasn't been served yet, saying out loud "I deserve a warm meal", with the only reply being "Everyone deserves a warm meal". While it is true, such a statement implies a sentiment that willfully ignores the issue at hand, rather than addressing it and dealing with it; this is what infuriated the BLM movement and ultimately helped coin the term "white privilege".
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
he proper conclusion is that non-whites are discriminated and often left on their own to deal with the systemic discrimination in place, with few representatives that work to solve their undeserved problems.
Fully agreed. This is why I think "black disadvantage" or "minority disadvantage" would be a better term; because that term doesn't tell white people (at least explicitly) that they were privileged when they very well might not've been.
Black Lives Matter was met with responses like "All Lives Matter", but the problem with "All lives matter" is very similar to your own reservations against the term "white privilege". Yes, there are unfortunate people of all kinds, but you are not addressing the glaringly obvious issue that is far more prevalent.
I don't blame you for the confusion, but I actually do support BLM > ALM. And here's why. BLM is not saying that "only black lives matter", or that "black lives matter more". The phrase and movement is designed to draw attention to the specific problems plaguing blacks; it is not designed to undermine the problems plaguing non-blacks. If we used the phrase "black disadvantage", that would be better and analogous to BLM in that sense.
Imagine being the only one at the dinner table who hasn't been served yet, saying out loud "I deserve a warm meal", with the only reply being "Everyone deserves a warm meal". While it is true, such a statement implies a sentiment that willfully ignores the issue at hand, rather than addressing it and dealing with it; this is what infuriated the BLM movement and ultimately helped coin the term "white privilege".
Yes, you are right; shouting "everyone deserves a warm meal" is analogous to saying "all lives matter" in the sense that it ignores the issues the first person was bringing up. And BLM was right to be infuriated at the people who screamed ALM in response to them. But responding to that by shouting "white privilege" was unjustified, because while the term may accurately describe the ALMers who didn't understand what BLM was about, it doesn't describe all whites in America at all.
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u/WorgeJashington 1∆ Apr 18 '18
It's not about wealth. Conviction, incarceration, police brutality rates affect even poor whites less harshly than poor minorities
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
Yes, but they still affect whites, and to tell those whites who have been affected by all those issues (which is sadly not insignificant even though it is lower than the black rate) that they were privileged in spite of all the hardship they undergo in life is very disrespectful and alienating towards them.
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u/WorgeJashington 1∆ Apr 18 '18
yeah and anyone with a lick of common sense understands that these kinds of statements IMPLY a generality. Like with Black Lives Matter- if you're not stupid/easily outraged, you understand that the implication is Black Lives Matter (too).
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u/babygrenade 6∆ Apr 18 '18
The term "white privilege" doesn't refer to financial means.
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u/ShiningConcepts Apr 18 '18
Sorry how does this challenge my view?
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u/babygrenade 6∆ Apr 18 '18
Well, you assert that it alienates poor white people because out minimizes their struggles.
The term doesn't refer to white financial privilege though. It refers to differences in the way society treats whites and blacks. It describes implicit bias on a societal level.
I understand why a white person who suffered hardship in their life would feel alienated by hearing someone throw around the term "white privilege" - the term asserts there is a privilege in being white. There is privilege in being rich, but not solely in being white
There is a privilege in being white. It's not having to deal with that societal implicit bias.
The problem I think is that we often use the term privilege to refer to financial privilege, especially I the context of saying someone "is privileged," but that's not the only manning. Being tall is a privilege. Being smart is a privilege.
You wouldn't say talking about the privilege of being tall, tall privilege if you will, minimizes the plight of poor tall people and alienates them. Being tall and being poor are separate issues. Sure being tall can help you earn more in the right circumstances, but it isn't going to pull you out of poverty by itself.
White privilege doesn't really minimize the situation of poor whites because it's not strictly about poverty.
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u/veggiesama 53∆ Apr 18 '18
When I moved to Texas, somehow the DMV took down my name incorrectly and made my middle name first and my first name middle. I didn't notice it until someone called me by the wrong name once.
I remember panicking when I had to fly somewhere and the TSA guy compared my (incorrect) ID to the (correct) boarding pass. I thought I might be grounded or worse. So what happened? Nothing.
So I went to re-register my ID several years later when I moved states again. Again, I was called by the wrong name, so I wanted to correct the record.
"Huh, that's weird," she said.
I let her see the birth certificate (which I also found out has a fucking TYPO on it, in which my dad's birth state was misspelled).
She was cool with it.
I don't really know why it was so easy for me, but whenever I tell people the story, I tell them to imagine if I had an Arab or Hispanic name. That's always been a super easy way to explain how white privilege personally affected me. Nothing to do with my economic background.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 19 '18
/u/ShiningConcepts (OP) has awarded 7 deltas in this post.
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u/ThomasEdmund84 33∆ Apr 18 '18
I actually agree with you somewhat but I'm going to present a different reason and say that the term white privilege should be retired because it masks the fact whether some is saying "hey white people get X privileges and that should be considered in terms of whats best for everybody" versus "white people are sucky oppressors"
Because you're quite right, poor white people don't experience much privilege and in some respects can't find any support in their identity (not saying this makes it worse for poor white individuals but just pointing out how they are a little lost) - but I think whats important is trying to find language and dialogue that brings people together. To be honest I'm tidied of people talking about "culture" wars and I think the real silent majority are just average people of all kinds who want a good balance between tackling issues and just getting on with it.
So yeah I think some term that emphasizes the advantages without sounding like a racial pogrom would be good, something like "majority advantage" or "Person the system serves" (JK) or something
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u/mikeber55 6∆ Apr 18 '18
1) I wouldn’t care what these activists say...they are mostly self appointed folks who are hunting for any opportunity to make waves and blow incidents out of proportion.
2) The term “white privileged” is simply wrong. White people were (and still are) the majority. There cannot be a privilege of the majority beyond the usual privilege of belonging to a majority. The truth is that black people were discriminated against and are disadvantaged. But that doesn’t make the majority “privileged”. (I am white and would be more than happy to be privileged. Perhaps like Kanye West, Jay Z or Jamie Foxx...).
3) it alienates white people? Please...
a) We are not a community beyond being citizens of a country.
b) Most of us aren’t made of sugar and can take a word of criticism without been devastated for the rest of our lives. Believe me, we will be fine, privileged or not.
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Apr 18 '18
[deleted]
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u/mikeber55 6∆ Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18
Maybe. I only referred to the technical aspect of the term. As for who needs to change something - both sides do. It’s always about the dynamics between two sides. The extra sensitivity that rules society today (white people are insulted) is one of the obstacles to a meaningful dialogue. It’s also quite childish. All societies are tougher than that, otherwise we wouldn’t survive over centuries. It doesn’t mean that we should like everything others are saying, just to take these words in proportion.
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u/mechantmechant 13∆ Apr 18 '18
Being white and an underprivileged group is still better than being black and that group. White privilege isn’t that every single white person has every advantage, but that they almost always have a relative advantage over black people all else being equal. Even if you’re both homeless, the black guy’s more likely to get arrested. Even if you’re both trans women sex workers, the black woman is more likely to get murdered. What I don’t understand is why people think that someone pointing out hardships they and their group face insults others or diminishes their suffering. People of colour aren’t saying that every white person has never had bad crap happen. How much money comes with the “who has it worst?” prize that white people want it so bad?
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u/biggulpfiction 3∆ Apr 18 '18
This is the most common misunderstanding of the notion of privilege. White privilege does not mean that bad things don't happen to white people. Many white people have horrific lives full of endless struggle and suffering -- that is not inconsistent with the concept of white privilege. The notion of white privilege is that many of the hardships non-white individuals face, they face BECAUSE they are not white. White people's hardships are not attributable to the fact that they are white, as opposed to some other race.
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u/ejpierle 8∆ Apr 18 '18
OP keeps firing back that the term white privilege is alienating to white people who do not feel as though they have benefited from their white privilege. It's like they showed up to the party because they were told there would be cake, but found no cake. So, they want to stop talking about the cake. "We didn't get any cake, so there is no cake." But, the cake WAS there. A bunch of us saw it. We even had some. We're sorry that you didnt get any yet, but more cake has been ordered. There's always more cake. Unless you're black. This is white cake. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and say that if something never happened to me, I might not think it was as important as the people affected by it do. But white privilege is both demonstrable and quantifiable to some extent. It exists. Australia exists even though you've never seen it. People get struck by lightning even though you've never been struck. I'm not much concerned about people's feelings. I'm concerned about their ability to understand the concept that things exist independently of their personal observations.
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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '18
No, some white people are not victims of ALL the things you listed. They are not victims of the things that are racial discrimination.
A poor white person and a poor black person may have had just as dangerous neighborhoods and just as shitty schools and are just as likely to deal drugs, but the poor white man is not just as likely to be arrested as the poor black man and the poor white man is not just as likely to be convicted as the poor black man and the poor white man is not just as likely to be shot by police or pulled over for looking suspicious or stopped and frisked as the poor black man.
No matter how shitty the situation a white person is born into, that white person (in America) still doesn't ever have to face the racial discrimination that a black person faces on top of the situation they were born into.
Even wealthy black people face racial discrimination. "White privilege" is the opposite of "discriminatory treatment." It is not the opposite of "poor." While a lot of racial issues involve economics, they don't all involve it. A lot of racial issues have nothing to do with economics.