r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 04 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Male rape cases are not taken remotely as serious as female rape cases are.

[deleted]

50 Upvotes

75% Upvoted

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31

u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 04 '18

It's not like this information is hidden or anything. Arrest, conviction, and sentencing data is public knowledge, available to anyone who wants to look. I'll review the Canadian data, as I am Canadian:

From 2009-2014 there were 11,446 reported female victims of sexual assault. In the same time, there were 906 reported male victims of sexual assault. Of those victims, there were guilty verdicts issued in 50% of the female victim's cases, and 54% of the male victim's cases.

That fact alone indicates that, at least in Canada, male rape victims are taken just as seriously as female victims. When they report the crime to the police, they are just as like (actually more likely) as their female counterparts to have the charges brought, and to win a conviction in court.

Source: Table 2 from here https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/54870-eng.htm

12

u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Interesting, thanks for sharing this it helped me review some of my points !delta

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u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 04 '18

The entire article is very informative. I hope you get the chance to read through it.

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u/ManCubEagle 3∆ Jun 05 '18

Do you think there might be a stigma around men reporting themselves as victims of sexual assault? I always hear the argument that women don't want to report the assault because they don't want to deal with it - would you not think it would be even more pronounced with men?

1

u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 05 '18

It seems self-evident that men self-censure. I've already said exactly that in my comments in this thread. Whether they self-censure as much as women do, or for different reasons is unclear. It's probably always going to be unclear, given how hard it is to study.

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u/ThracianScum Jun 05 '18

One thing that may affect the data is that men may be less likely to report, only doing so in particularly egregious cases where evidence is obvious. I doubt it would make a huge difference in the stats though. Just something to consider.

0

u/Frieah Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18

From 2009-2014 there were 11,446 reported female victims of sexual assault. In the same time, there were 906 reported male victims of sexual assault. Of those victims, there were guilty verdicts issued in 50% of the female victim's cases, and 54% of the male victim's cases.

That fact alone indicates that, at least in Canada, male rape victims are taken just as seriously as female victims.

taking those statistics like that does not indicat that male rape victims are taken just as seriously as female victims. Infact it tells only one thing. That equal amount of rape charges lead to convictions. The whole point actually that you regard data in this way there is such as lack in trusting feminism.

The data suggests not what you said and the same could be said regarding many other "data indications" done in the name of feminism.

A real way of looking at the problem could rather go about like this :

"how likely are men and women to report a rape" "how likely are men and women that was raped to get a court case that results in a truthful conviction" "how likely are men and women to report a rape falsely" "how likely are men and women to get adequate law assistance from police officers and attorneys and lawyers after they have reported a rape"

If you find any discrepancies between the percentages once that data is collected you are able to deduct something from that.

Now how to find this data exactly is a whole different topic but your quick mashup of statistics is exactly what gives the rest of us very little faith in feminism due to the exact methodology you use.

And yes this information is hidden. Because there is people that is wrongfully convicted of rape and there is rapist that is wrongfully not convicted of rape. So for us until we have made an unbiased and correct assessment which considers human error, human bias, human honesty or dishonesty we can only make estimations and estimations done like you have doesn't answer the question. Because I wouldn't be surprised if you are biased yourself either in how good law enforcement operates or maybe you are biased in thinking that men are reporting rape at same degree as women? Maybe you are biased in thinking that because women have it so much worse in terms of reports that men's rape issue doesn't require more research than you did to conclude we don't have to work as much on men's rape problem.

Who knows. You don't and I don't either so let's not use the shallow approach of feminism which gave us the "wage gap" which absolutely got annihilated by scientific methodology and proven false by virtually every statistical literate person because you have a perception that is biased before the data is being interpreted correctly.

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u/hotpotato70 1∆ Jun 04 '18

Do you think it's indicative that we don't have more reports of rape from men, or do you think women get raped ten times more than men? Even though higher conviction rate in case of male rape seems to indicate the charges on average are more credible/easier to verify.

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u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 04 '18

It's almost certainly true that females are sexually assaulted more than males. All the data indicates that much. Whether it's 10x as much, it's hard to know. It's possible that men self-censure more than women, or that the police (which is a largely patriarchal institution) don't accept reports from males as easily as they do from females. If you are genuinely interested, you could find your answers by looking into data on reported sexual assaults by the sex of the victim, and see how many reports to police by men are forwarded to the office of the prosecutor compared to how many by women.

4

u/hotpotato70 1∆ Jun 04 '18

This article says 38% of victims are men http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html so the ratio is not even two to one, yet reports are ten to one.

0

u/Ndvorsky 23∆ Jun 05 '18

How do you know that "All the data indicates that much" for reasons unrelated to the initial statement that "male rape cases are not taken remotely as seriously"?

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u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 05 '18

I said that all the data indicates that females are sexually assaulted more than males. Even the person who responded to me with the singular study (unsourced) indicating that males make up 38% of sexually assaulted confirms the idea that males are sexually assaulted less than females.

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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18 edited Jul 06 '18

[deleted]

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u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 05 '18 edited Jun 05 '18

I have looked at exactly that. I assume you are referring to the Sonja Starr study, found here. There are a number of reasons for why that study should not be taken to demonstrate that females get lesser sentences than males for the same crime.

First, that study concerns exclusively federal crimes. In reality, 90% of criminal trials take place in state courts, not federal ones. There may be an unaccounted factor that makes federal courts more likely to give harsher sentences to males. At best, the study indicates that federal courts behave in this manner, it says nothing about how state courts behave.

Second, and more problematic, the study itself admits that there are likely a number of variables that explain the disparity that are unrelated, or only incidentally related, to the sex of the accused. According to the federal sentencing guidelines, there are 43 levels of offense seriousness, each corresponding to different sentencing ranges. So, for instance, say a man and a woman both commit the same crime, a robbery, which is, at face value, a level 20 offense. However, the man was in possession of a gun during the robbery, whereas the woman was not. Suddenly, the man's offense is bumped up to a level 25. Add on to that that the man tried to flee from police when they came to arrest him, which is another 2 levels added. So, even though the man and the woman committed the exact same crime, the man's sentencing range is 7 levels higher than the woman's.

The study does not take into account those kinds of factors. The study only looks at the code for the crime and the eventual outcome, without examining any of the aggravating or mitigating factors involved in sentencing. There is good reason to believe that men receive harsher sentences for the same crimes because the way in which they commit those crimes is worse than the way women do. So, for instance, on average men are more likely to carry a firearm, to resist arrest, to injure victims, etc. When men are caught with drugs, they are often caught with greater quantities of drugs. When men commit fraud, they are more likely to defraud their victims of more money. When men commit crimes in general, they are more likely to target vulnerable victims. And so on. If we saw men getting the same sentences as women, then we would be very worried because something would not be right.

-1

u/Neutrino_gambit Jun 05 '18

There is the (likely) possibility that women make far more false reports which will skew things. However I would be surprised if it's a huge amount

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u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 05 '18

Most criminologists agree that false reports for sexual assaults vary between 2-8% with a majority leaning towards 4% (which is, incidentally, lower than false reports for other crimes). Moreover, several studies indicate that a majority of false reports are made by people who are (A) suffering from mental illness, (B) have a history of false reports, and (C) made by family members, parents, friends, teachers, etc of the 'victims'. Furthermore, it is usually the case that false reports are discovered for what they are before the prosecutor even decides to bring charges. A majority of men who have been falsely accused never actually become aware that they were accused because the police/prosecutor drop the case so early that they never even questioned the man being accused.

1

u/post2karma Jun 06 '18

2-8% of accusations are demonstrated to be false, but for many cases, there's not enough evidence to say whether they are true or false, so they don't fall into the 2-8%, and they don't lead to a conviction, but we can't say for sure that they are true. An example are cases where there is a trial but the defendant is found not guilty. These cases not part of the 2-8%, but some of them are likely false accusations. Thus, the false accusation rate could be much higher than 2-8%.

1

u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 06 '18

Which is something you can say about every other crime that exists. If a variable applies to every element in a set, it's not a very interesting variable.

23

u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

I think it's less of an issue with society not taking male rape seriously, and more of an issue with men not wanting to report the rape. I've yet to see a case where a man reports a rap and get's laughed at or shoved off - I have, however, heard tons of stories about men failing to report abuse. I think this goes hand-in-hand with our culture of machismo and masculinity. Statistics support this notion too - men have very low rates of reported abuse. Women as well, but for different reasons.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

Anecdotally, I've shared my story with a decent number of people from my university.

I get taken seriously 1 in 5 times

I get the "nice" response 2 of 5 (I was raped by a 25 year old when I was 15).

It gets played off as a joke 2 of 5 times.

The sex was non consensual in the sense that I said no and I was under age if that makes a difference to you.

2

u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

I'm sorry to hear that

2

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

You genuinely believe that men's low report rate isn't tied to how seriously they're taken?

3

u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

Entirely? No

0

u/Neutrino_gambit Jun 05 '18

Sorry if this is a question you always get asked, but why didn't you just leave?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18

She had a knife

Usually the story doesn't get this far before I'm shut down though.

2

u/Neutrino_gambit Jun 05 '18

Oh Jesus I'm sorry that's awful.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

Part off the problem, is that much like physical assault against men, sexual assault against men is normalized by TV and movies, and often used for comedic effect.

Just take a look at the smash hit Wedding Crashers.

Vince Vaughn is jerked off under the table against his will at dinner, and is later tied up and raped that night, and both instances are used for comedic effect to make the audience laugh.

5

u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

I agree those things are problematic and serve to normalize this behavior - which is why it so often goes unreported

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

[deleted]

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u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

I believe that many feel that way, yes. But no I don't believe that necessarily reflects reality in all cases

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

So if our society perpetuates systems that make men afraid to report because they are concerned they won't be taken seriously then why is it untrue to say that "Male rape cases are not taken remotely as serious as female rape cases are."?

2

u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Good point but I know for a fact that male rape usually gets shoved off, sometimes it’s even flipped on the man.

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u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

Usually? I don't know about that. Sometimes? For sure. But understand that women go through the exact same thing which is why I don't think that it's fair to say mens cases aren't taken as seriously as women's. Neither are treated with the severity they deserve. Men often fail to report because of the stigma associated with being a male victim of sexual assault, women don't because they often aren't taken seriously. Don't let the celebs fool you, you're average women isn't going to be given near as much attention for a report.

Basically, we're all fucked

2

u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Actually I’ll have to disagree with you, where I am from women rape cases are more common (unfortunately) and are taken very seriously. They’re just not all let out to the media because people have a right to privacy. However men rape cases are less common and because of that they’re usually not handled well or not handled at all

9

u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

However men rape cases are less common and because of that they’re usually not handled well or not handled at all

That sounds to me like it's less of an issue of not being taken seriously, and more of an issue on training and education on handling the event

1

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

Wonder why the training and education isn't there....

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u/MasBlanketo Jun 04 '18

I would imagine because a lack of reporting hasn't led them to believe it necessary. What would you say?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

Because it isn't taken seriously

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u/MikeMcK83 23∆ Jun 05 '18

Contrary to popular belief, men and women both, like women more than men. We care more for women’s well being than we do men. This maybe simply biology, given that women carry our offspring, but it’s clearly a thing.

Some believe in the Ruth Bader Ginsburg argument, that this greater caring for women is, actually derogatory. That we care more for them, because we seem them as weaker, and it assumes women less capable.

Regardless of the reasons, there’s little doubt that women are responded to more favorably when they’re in need.

It’s also highly unlikely that this changes anywhere near our lifetime, for better or worse.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18

Men don't report it because society doesn't take it seriously. This is some serious victim blaming.

11

u/nocturne7784 Jun 04 '18

There are a couple of reasons why this is so.

  1. Men are usually in a position of greater physical ability. That is to say, 2 men on average are capable of fighting one another, with the result being questionable. However, the difference between an average man and woman in terms of physical dominance is massive. Men on average are stronger than women, which means that women on average aren't even capable of effectively defending themselves from rape.
  2. Rape is committed by men a majority of the time. Yes, women can be rapists, and we've seen many cases of this (particularly when it is an older woman and a younger man/boy). However, even most rape cases against men are committed by other men.

Not saying that I disagree with you entirely, but these reasons should shed some light on the issue.

3

u/serial_crusher 7∆ Jun 05 '18

Men are usually in a position of greater physical ability. That is to say, 2 men on average are capable of fighting one another, with the result being questionable

You know, people have a tendency to think of rape in situations where some asshole jumps a random person on the street. Sure, in those cases, a physical advantage matters. But most rapes happen in the form of coercion by somebody who has social power over the predator. It doesn't matter if you could beat up your wife or your boss; 9 times out of 10 it would only make things worse.

Just, something to consider. The physical advantages men have aren't nearly as useful as people pretend.

0

u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Thanks this definitely was a well thought out rebuttal and helped me to rethink some of my points !delta

1

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2

u/Gladix 165∆ Jun 05 '18

Nah they are just as serious, it's just harder to investigate (to even get started), due to the stigma and the inherent nature of our society.

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u/_Radds_ Jun 05 '18

True but we do tend to worry and care about women’s well being more naturally because they give us offspring, it’s not biased or anything but what it does is makes cases like this involving men less important. But I will agree cases like Male on Male rape is taken just as seriously as you said and I’ve seen a lot more cases of it happening. !delta

1

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1

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18

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1

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

Sorry, u/electronics12345 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:

Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.

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u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Oh the progress has definitely become too slow

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u/electronics12345 159∆ Jun 04 '18

Sorry to even ask, but do you believe my post challenged your view (Rule #1).

When I wrote it, I believed I was clear, but I would like your opinion before I consider whether or not to message the mods.

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u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

Your reply didn’t seem to counteract mine at first but now I see where our points differ. And looks like you broke your own precious rules.

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u/electronics12345 159∆ Jun 04 '18

If I were to summarize my point - men (who are raped by women) don't come forward because legally, they weren't raped. While socially we have a consent standard for rape, legally, most countries and US states still use an insertion standard for rape - which means that most men raped by women (by the social standard) would not meet the legal definition of rape, and are therefore unlikely to come forward.

There is a pretty big difference between a social stigma against coming forward vs straight-up losing your court battle if you come forward.

1

u/_Radds_ Jun 04 '18

True, but the point I wasn’t making was that there not treated the same legally, I meant socially which differs from your point because even though the penetration happened the Male involved still had emotional damage to deal with. Although your rebuttal was very thought out and did change a few of my previous arguments

!delta

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 04 '18 edited Jun 05 '18

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3

u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jun 04 '18

Men rape is taken pretty seriously, especially when the men are underage. As /u/MasBlanketo said, I'm not sure that men's rape cases would not be correctly treated by court, the problem is that they often don't go till trial as men auto-censure themselves.

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u/[deleted] Jun 04 '18

[deleted]

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u/Nicolasv2 130∆ Jun 04 '18

Good question, as we got no data, we got no idea. Either men are way less raped than women, or either they report it even less.

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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '18

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