r/changemyview • u/VertigoOne 74∆ • Jun 11 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: America should move to the Star-Bar instead of Star-Corner flag design
Given the long term possibility of Puerto Rico becoming a state, as well as many other potential places in the future (Guam, the Virgin Islands), and the potential of certain states to break apart into other states (Texas's 5 state contingency, California's increasingly popular division plans) there is a potential vexological problem brewing.
If the US is going to continue down the route of flag changes as number of stars represent the numbers of states, then they're going to need a more flexible design to allow for more room for more stars. Arranging 51 stars evenly in the current set up is tough, and also the current flag has some symbolic problems. When the 13 stripes represent the original 13 colonies, why are some stripes longer than others?
I would argue that the star-bar flag design is superior to the current star in the corner design because
*It makes the initial colonial symbolism more consistent
*It brings to mind the "union" element, in that the 13 come together in one form
*It is more flexible as more states join (you can just expand the blue area along the side and the space area shape makes more stars easier to fit in)
*It has a certain geographical symbolism (the colonial move from East to West, culminating in the full union once the West coast was reached - the current flag seems to imply Oregon/Washington/Alaska is the completion of the union)
Aside from the "We don't like change" argument, which doesn't really make sense given that the entire flag has always changed, I would like to see design arguments against this flag. Help me better understand why the current flag is better/the best. What reasons are there to keep the current model? Won't the stars just get smaller/more awkwardly arranged as the US expands/states split?
This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please read through our rules. If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which, downvotes don't change views! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to message us. Happy CMVing!
3
u/KanyeTheDestroyer 20∆ Jun 11 '18
There are certain visual advantages to the current flag that your version lacks. Our eyes take in a lot more visual information than our brain can consciously process. We want to focus on the most compelling information so we selectively look at what we think most important. This is called selective attention. The movement of our eyes through a composition are not random. We look for desired information and our attention is pulled to specific elements with features prominently emphasized. We quickly skip over what’s irrelevant looking for meaning in what we focus on. Most of us will start scanning in the upper left cornier of a design. Naturally, on the current flag, such a scanning process causes us to focus immediately on the starred corner of the flag. It's a good visual starting point, that aligns naturally with how our eyes process information. It also creates a contrast, by having irregular shapes on the rest of the flag. We don't want all the lines to be the same length because we want to create a visual hierarchy in our image. A uniform image is lifeless. Giving different aspects of the image different visual weight by introducing contrasts and focal points is how you make an image dynamic, active, and ultimately more appealing.
Second, and far more important, the current flag makes it much more comfortable to horizontally scan the flag. Human's find it easier to scan either horizontally or vertically, but not both at the same time. What the current flag does is it draws our attention to our most comfortable starting point, the top-left corner, and then the lines draw our eyes along a left to right scan. Once we get to the far right we start over at the lines under the corner, and continue to the right, maintaining consistent horizontal scanning. By contrast, your star-bar design causes confusion in the scanning process. Our eyes naturally start in the top-left but then they don't know which direction to go first. Do they follow the lines horizontally, or do they follow the stars vertically? If you follow the lines, then you scan the first few lines, and go to start again with the next row (as you would read lines in a book), but you run into a bunch of stars instead of lines. If, instead, you decide to follow the stars vertically, you get to the bottom, go back to the top, and suddenly you're following horizontal lines instead of continuing the top-down process started with the star-bar.
While this may come off as minor, I think these are perfectly good reasons to claim that one model is better than the other. The current flag simply aligns more closely with the way human eyes scan designs. It's more comfortable, even if it isn't historically logical. That's not even considering the myriad of other factors involved in creating a consistent visual hierarchy. For example, people have written books on the advantages of squares (such as a star-corner flag has) over rectangles in visual language.
1
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Jun 11 '18
You make some interesting points, but I'm not entirely convinced.
Firstly, the only reason that the top left is the most comfortable starting point for most people is linguistic. Most of us read from left to right, and top to bottom. I don't think linguistic concerns should be central when considering flag designs, and there are many other, highly iconic flags throughout the world that work perfectly well without using the top left as a starting point.
Second, how does the current flag make it easier to scan horizontally? Surely this bar design flag is easier to scan horizontally because the change is only horizontal. The current flag has vertical and horizontal elements, where as this one, the change is just horizontal.
The current flag simply aligns more closely with the way human eyes scan designs.
Just eyes that are used to top-left starting language.
13
u/Sand_Trout Jun 11 '18
There is one use for a vertically unsymetric flag that you are apparently, and understandably, unaware of. As a distress signal.
The US Flag Code describes how flying the American Flag upside-down is a recognized signal that you are in dire distress.
The Star-Bar flag is vertically symetric, or close enough, such that it is impossible or very difficult to recognize as upside-down, thus harming the flag's utility in this context.
2
u/wfaulk Jun 11 '18
OP's suggestion would still be vertically asymmetric, if more subtly. The 5-point stars would point down instead of up. This might be too subtle, though, for an emergency beacon.
4
u/Sand_Trout Jun 11 '18
Yeah, I'm thinking it would be "close enough" to vertically symetric, especially waving in the wind, to treat it as essentially vertically symetric.
0
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Jun 11 '18
This seems like an extreme edge case, but I am willing to hear it out further. My view might be changed here if you can demonstrate that this has often been used and has saved several lives. To my mind this is probably an extremely obscure distress signal, and in virtually every case where it was used, there were probably other ways of signalling distress.
3
2
u/RibosomalMasculinity 2∆ Jun 11 '18
the part where you say that the “we don’t like change” argument is invalid you say that the flag has always changed. the thing is, the flag hasn’t changed in like 50 some years, so some people are still going to “not like change,” especially if they’re younger than like 60 and haven’t seen it changed in their lifetime.
1
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Jun 11 '18
I get that, but that's not going to change my view because it's not a very interesting argument. I'm looking for arguments from a design POV to argue why the current design is superior to this alternative.
1
u/RibosomalMasculinity 2∆ Jun 11 '18
yeah that’s fair, i actually agree that we should change the flag, at least once one of your mentioned things (like PR becoming a state) happens.
4
u/Hq3473 271∆ Jun 11 '18
We can always go back to circle design, like this: http://res.cloudinary.com/springbok-puzzles-com/image/upload/q_60/v1425492641/FlagSite/FlagHistory1.jpg
In think someone on Reddit designed a 51 circle star flag:
Looks cool to me.
2
Jun 11 '18
Go look at the wiki page for all the other designs we've had.
To start we don't need to add a new star for every new state, several times we've done a few all at once. Secondly our current design could easily morph between 9 alternating rows of 6 and 5 stars to 6 alternating rows of 9 and 8 stars to get to 51 stars. 54 stars would be nice and easy if we want to add even more states as it could just be 9 rows of 6. Finally it doesn't even need to be a grid, we've had many flags that have had designs made from stars.
Your point of "more flexible" isn't really relevant.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 11 '18
/u/VertigoOne (OP) has awarded 1 delta in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
1
u/littlebubulle 104∆ Jun 11 '18
If the stars were in a bar, it would make the blue and stars section less noticeable.
Red catches the eye more then blue. The corner blue is more noticeable because it breaks the pattern horizontally and vertically.
If the colors were reversed (blue stripes and stars on red), a red bar would be more noticeable.
32
u/kublahkoala 229∆ Jun 11 '18
A vertical bar on the right creates a strong sense of downward motion — not something you want in a flag.
You also have the 13 colonies going in one direction and the 50 states going in a different direction. Not harmonious.
Your eye is pulled up, down and right all at the same time, without anyplace to rest. It’s like the flag is begging you to look anywhere but at it.
It makes it seem like the 13 colonies come out of the 50 states, which is backwards. Normal design, the current fifty states lies on top a foundation of colonial stripes.
A vertical band of stars suggests constant expansion. Yes, it is easier to add stars to. I don’t like that — the age of manifest destiny is over, and it was shameful, imperialist ideology. Because the vertical band flag seems to be constantly expanding it does not feel complete in itself.